Enforcer84 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I admit my Hyperproductive character write up days seem to be behind me. But I do love it and have found to my chagrin I really prefer making heroes to villains. So, I'm actually contemplating another big HERO project, haven't decided whether or not to convert my Else Earth (Hero-a-Day-Sorta) project to 6th or continue with my Comic book conversions (in 5th or 6th)...heck I think I still need to make Zeus so Teflon Billy has closure on my Olympians write ups. That said, I have noticed my villains (and heroes) often (IMO) fall way too neatly into a few motivation archetypes. I'd like to expand on this. I'd like your help. Below are my usual suspects, anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Villain Motivations: Greed - I'm in it for the money. Vengeance - I'm gonna get that guy! Megalomania - Today Brunswick, tomorrow the world! Kicks - Catch me if you Can! Psycho - KILL! (in new and horrible ways!) Rebellion - So what if my dad is the greatest hero the world has ever known! Mindless - Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaar! Unrequited (and Unstable) Love - I'll steal the moon for you, Sue! Sex Killer - uhm...yeah I don't have an example here. Self-loathing - I think I'm a monster, I'll be one. Chip on their Shoulder the size of a mountain. Destroy the World/Universe/Everything! - Nihilistic rage. Ends Justify the Means - I am protecting X from ! Nothing else matters! Sycophant - Answers to a higher calling. Or a bigger bad Driven by their own powers (to feed on people or to drive them away) Ideology Loyalty Utilitarianism (committing lesser evils to avert greater or so they think) Fear Territoriality The over-estimation of ones own authority Restoring Honor - the name Milquetoast will be feared again! Addiction - I need this, and to get it I gotta take that. Fame - I'm gonna live forever. Morgan Fairchild Above Morality Ignorance Mercenary Amoral Curiosity - what happens if I do this? Frustrated Vigilantism Puppet - Dance Mr. Villain! Dance! Overdeveloped sense of self importance - This works for heroes too. Fanatics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Hmm... Love, lust and self-loathing? Kang and Doctor Doom are both doing it for girls, or so they think. Sex-killer supervillains haven't gone out of style since the late '80s, although I wish they would. And if people are driven to greatness by their self-loathing, how much more supervillains trying to overcome that nagging sense of inadequacy? "To prove their mousy worth/they'll overthrow the Earth..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations sweet! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations I was rereading the 1st Edition rules last night, and ran across the villain motivation section there. It turns out it was carried across pretty much word for word to 3rd edition at least. Anyway, the following comment got me thinking: "Destroying the World: If you can't conquer it, blow it up. Or maybe the villain just eats worlds for breakfast (a really galactic bad guy). Sometimes a plot for conquering the world goes awry, and the world is in danger of destruction." Any thoughts on "a really galactic bad guy" type character? Aside from the in joke example, what similar characters can you think of? (The Sun Eater from the Legion of Superheroes is one, although not exactly a "character".) How would you go about building such a character? How would you go about making it possible for the PCs to stop them from making a snack of Earth (or other target planet)? How could relatively low powered PCs handle it? Any thoughts? --- I've been having quite a bit of fun looking back at the early editions. They really were pretty neat. It's such a shame 1st edition brought out such a roaring attack of munchkinism in so many players. There are, of course, problems balancing characters against the "real world" weapons presented in the rules, even though they weren't quite as over the top as the ones in the last couple of editions. Even being bulletproof was relatively expensive, and that's without considering the Stun Lottery. Endurance was a whole different thing back then too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations IMHO some of the most interesting villains are the "ends justify the means" characters. They have goals that seem on the surface to be noble, but they're willing to go to extreme lengths, causing destruction or even death, to achieve them. Some of the most common include: Stopping the people who are "destroying" the world. These can include environment-polluting industrial corporations, "warmongering" weapons manufacturers, and corrupt or oppressive political regimes (or those the villain considers corrupt or oppressive). A variation of the above is the villain who has foreseen or lived through a hellish or apocalyptic potential future, and wants to change the present day so this future will never occur. Classic scenarios include assassinating a key person, stopping a scientific project which will go horribly wrong, or killing the superheroes who will inadvertently cause the apocalypse. Some villains sincerely believe (or convince themselves they believe) that they're the only ones who have the vision and competence to make the world a better place, and seek the power to make their vision reality, whether the general populace of the world agrees or not. Vigilante villains may see themselves as crimefighting heroes, but use lethal force as self-appointed judges and executioners, which will put them at odds with most law-abiding superheroes; particularly if the vigilante considers some loss of innocent life as "acceptable collateral damage." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Vengeance of some sort is another good motivation for a villain.....nevermind I missed it on the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Villain Motivations: Greed - I'm in it for the money. Vengeance - I'm gonna get that guy! Megalomania - Today Brunswick, tomorrow the world! Kicks - Catch me if you Can! Psycho - KILL! (in new and horribleways!) Rebellion - So what if my dad is the greatest hero the world has ever known! Mindless - Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaar! Unrequieted (and Unstable) Love - I'll steal the moon for you, Sue! Sex Killer - uhm...yeah I don't have an example here. Self-loathing - I think I'm a monster, I'll be one. Chip on their Shoulder the size of a mountain. Destroy the World/Universe/Everything! - Nihilistic rage. Well characters I've created that don't fit into those categories include: I feel your pain. The only way to stop feeling your pain is to take it away. Those thoughts were only good for causing pain. You'll be happier without them. I taste your pain. It's like wine. It's like food. It doesn't just taste great, I'll starve without it. This country is sliding into a bigger and bloodier war than any the world has ever seen. Removing the President is the only way to save a million American lives. If I don't steal my sculptures, they'll be destroyed when people find out about the listening devices my boyfriend built into them. I've got to prove myself to the gang. Otherwise I'll be on my own again. This is my turf and my gang. A man's got to protect what's his, even if that means stopping a few hearts. It's not my fault that some guys are so weak that I drive them crazy and have to kill them when they come after me. It's just self-defence! I love him. If he wants me to do it, I'll do it. I won't lose to her. You haven't seen the future I've seen. If you did, you'd realize that the people I'm killing are a small price to pay to prevent it. It isn't stealing to remove mystic artifacts from people who haven't more than the slightest understanding of their nature. Would you complain if I were to "steal" a knife from a toddler? I have to get them before they get me. Let's see what this experiment shows us. Dude, he's my dad. I got to back his play. When I am finished there will be a single new superpower spanning the world from Morocco to Iraq. No longer will we be the pawns of the western powers. We will meet them on equal terms! For a free Quebec! I have my orders I am the law. Therefore nothing I do is illegal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations IMHO some of the most interesting villains are the "ends justify the means" characters. They have goals that seem on the surface to be noble, but they're willing to go to extreme lengths, causing destruction or even death, to achieve them. Some of the most common include: Stopping the people who are "destroying" the world. These can include environment-polluting industrial corporations, "warmongering" weapons manufacturers, and corrupt or oppressive political regimes (or those the villain considers corrupt or oppressive). A variation of the above is the villain who has foreseen or lived through a hellish or apocalyptic potential future, and wants to change the present day so this future will never occur. Classic scenarios include assassinating a key person, stopping a scientific project which will go horribly wrong, or killing the superheroes who will inadvertently cause the apocalypse. Some villains sincerely believe (or convince themselves they believe) that they're the only ones who have the vision and competence to make the world a better place, and seek the power to make their vision reality, whether the general populace of the world agrees or not. Vigilante villains may see themselves as crimefighting heroes, but use lethal force as self-appointed judges and executioners, which will put them at odds with most law-abiding superheroes; particularly if the vigilante considers some loss of innocent life as "acceptable collateral damage." Well, I became I world' hating supervillain after watching Cpt. Planet and the Planeteers. Is there a connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations how about changing reality to make things better/worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations The Inscrutable: You heroes don't and never will truly understand my motivations The Unmoral: Petty human morality doesn't apply to me, I'm (alien/god/spirit/force of nature/whatever) For My Masters: The evil I do, I do in service of a higher power (God/Cthulu/Fate/Whatever) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baronspam Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations I was rereading the 1st Edition rules last night, and ran across the villain motivation section there. It turns out it was carried across pretty much word for word to 3rd edition at least. Anyway, the following comment got me thinking: "Destroying the World: If you can't conquer it, blow it up. Or maybe the villain just eats worlds for breakfast (a really galactic bad guy). Sometimes a plot for conquering the world goes awry, and the world is in danger of destruction." Any thoughts on "a really galactic bad guy" type character? Aside from the in joke example, what similar characters can you think of? (The Sun Eater from the Legion of Superheroes is one, although not exactly a "character".) How would you go about building such a character? How would you go about making it possible for the PCs to stop them from making a snack of Earth (or other target planet)? How could relatively low powered PCs handle it? Any thoughts? --- I've been having quite a bit of fun looking back at the early editions. They really were pretty neat. It's such a shame 1st edition brought out such a roaring attack of munchkinism in so many players. There are, of course, problems balancing characters against the "real world" weapons presented in the rules, even though they weren't quite as over the top as the ones in the last couple of editions. Even being bulletproof was relatively expensive, and that's without considering the Stun Lottery. Endurance was a whole different thing back then too. Galactus is the classic example that comes to my mind. He drains the life force from worlds as food. Talk about being the top of the food chain. If you wanted to do a Galactus style story the last thing you would do is draw up stats for him. By definintion, you can't beat him in a fight. His 5073d6 blast leavs a crater the size of Kansas. The character's attacks are so far below his defences it might take some time before he even realizes he is being attacked. Direct combat is absolute suicide. Instead, the story would revolve around getting the means to defeat him. In the original Fantastic Four series the Human Torch goes into another dimension and brings back a gadget called the Ultimate Nullifier. It allows the user to destroy any target, with the sure knowledge that they will also be destroyed by using it. So you ended up with a sort of Mexican stand off. Galactus survives, but he leaves earth alone because Reed Richards is willing to die to save the planet if he comes back. Such a story could focus on getting exotic raw materials to which the RGBG is vulnerable, unleashing some anchient or arcane force that hates the RGBG and will take him out/imprison him, reactivation magic wards to do the same, or something similar. You don't fight Cthulhu, you fight his minions so he doesn't rise. You don't fight the RGBG, you build a phantom zone projector(a difficult process involving many mini-quest and side adventures) and banish him to another dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeZero Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations "If you want to make an omelette, you've got to break a few eggs. Maybe a whole lot of eggs." "Once I succeed in my plot to assemble the Time Inverter, all of the things I have done will be reverted as if I never was. Why worry about a few deaths when they will be alive and well once I am finished?" "The Dread Devourer of Bone And Breath will destroy this entire state if it gets free. A few blood sacrifices to prevent that seems like such a small price to pay." "bUt iSn'T iT pOlItE tO mOvE tHe PiNk StArFiSh SoUlS iNtO nEw BeTtEr CrYsTaL bOdIeS? yOuR oRgAnIc SlUdGe GrOwThS lOoK lIkE sUcH aN uNpLeAsAnT dIsEaSe AnD i-Us aRe OnLy BeInG kInD..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Galactus is the classic example that comes to my mind. That's who was being referred to in the "really galactic bad guy" comment, of course. If you wanted to do a Galactus style story the last thing you would do is draw up stats for him. Probably true, although keeping him busy/buying time could be involved. Instead, the story would revolve around getting the means to defeat him. Yes. Of course you need a nicely unsubtle way to tell the PCs what they have to do to beat him. That doesn't preclude letting them stew for a while. They might even come up with a solution that's more fun than your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Knight Templar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernaut Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations "The villain is the hero of his own story." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yansuf Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Knight Templar Sorry, I don't get this one. Care to explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations They don't see themselves as villains...they're possessed by a fanatical idea that what they do is Right and whoever stands against them is obviously wrong and "evil". The ends will justify the means, no matter how depraved those means are. And they will save the world -- whether the world wants their "help" or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Sorry, I don't get this one. Care to explain? Knight Templars is a term for a guy who will kill a city for the greater good. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Beaten to the punch. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Agenda Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Another way that villains justify their actions is entitlement. They came up hard, other people had it easy, they deserve the good life and the man is always trying to keep them down. It's time they got what's theirs. And once they've got it, everyone else wants to take it, they've got to protect it, and they've got to show no one can mess with them and get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKJAM! Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Okay, saw one today not yet on the list: the apparent villain is actually a puppet, either through direct control (mind control or bodyjacking) or extortion. Example: The Wraith, from a storyline in Marvel Team-Up featuring Spider-Man, Doctor Strange and Iron Man. He killed people with bombs dropped from remote-controlled model planes, but his powers were telekinesis, mind control and mental illusions. The man behind the mask turned out to be Jean DeWolff's presumed-dead brother, but he was a mindless vegetable at the time. The real criminal was his father, whose motivation was a heady mix of parental favoritism, male chauvinism, getting rid of the people blackmailing him...and a desire to wipe out crime and corruption in New York City. And thanks to the device that brought his son back from the mostly dead, Pops has the ability to puppet his body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Okay' date=' saw one today not yet on the list: the apparent villain is actually a puppet, either through direct control (mind control or bodyjacking) or extortion. Example: The Wraith, from a storyline in Marvel Team-Up featuring Spider-Man, Doctor Strange and Iron Man. He killed people with bombs dropped from remote-controlled model planes, but his powers were telekinesis, mind control and mental illusions. The man behind the mask turned out to be Jean DeWolff's presumed-dead brother, but he was a mindless vegetable at the time. The real criminal was his father, whose motivation was a heady mix of parental favoritism, male chauvinism, getting rid of the people blackmailing him...and a desire to wipe out crime and corruption in New York City. And thanks to the device that brought his son back from the mostly dead, Pops has the ability to puppet his body.[/quote'] Dude, I JUST read that story arc a week ago. Were you reading over my shoulder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations As to other villain motivations: "I Reject Your Reality and Substitute My Own" - The villain is deranged and sees the world completely different than others. (I'm just a character in a comic book, or I'm the last human on earth and everything around me is just a show put on by aliens.) "I Have No Choice" - the inverse of JusticeZero's Time Inverter, the villain believes he is fated to do what he does, so it's not really his fault. "I'm Bored. Amuse me." - an immortal who has seen it all just wants to find some new kicks. A variation on the Kicks in the OP, but he's not challenging someone to stop him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Villainous Motivations Interesting villains come from combinations of factors, too. For example, an amalgam of Vengeance plus Ends justify means plus Nihilistic Rage might be the Betrayed Hero: initially loyal, moral, and supremely competent, he was outcast/sacrificed by a master (or government) that came to fear his abilities and suspect his motives ... which were nothing but the best until he found himself suspected of the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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