Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Cygnia]

 

Sexual Harassment in Comics: The Tipping Point

 

[Tasha]

Wow, Thanks Cygnia for all of the articles. I thought I had found a new one to share and you posted it days ago LOL.

[Cygnia]

Thanks for the kind words, Tasha.  This has been something that's been eating at me for a while now.

[Enforcer84]

My biggest problem with her is that she does not just want men and women treated the same.  She also wants to get rid of the action oriented games that I like. It isn't enough to make games like the recent Tomb Raider, because while the protagonist is a woman (and not nearly as overly-sexualized as she was in earlier games), she still walks around killing people with little or no remorse.

 

In short, I'd really like to watch a moderated debate between her and Olivia Munn.

 

Oh, and one other Anita-issue.  I understand her points about how we need to use less of women as objects, such as in the damsels-in-distress video.  However, watching her other "tropes vs women" videos, I get the feeling she goes to far in some, like the manic-pixie dream girl.  If the story is primarily focused on one character, most of the other characters will be props.  I'm not sure where the line between offensive and inoffensive types of props is. 

 

My mental model of Anita (Straw!Anita) responds "Can't we make complex stories of many richly developed characters." I say, that's hard, and sometimes I like simple stories.

 

 

I've seen a video of the new Tomb Raider, complaining about the opposite, that Lara was too emotional about the situations she's put in and one of the things in the clips was showing her being upset at killing a person for the first time. That was from a feminist or at least someone claiming to be one.

 

From what I've seen of the game, it looks decent. I may pick it up sometime, but I have other games to get through first.

 

Well this is the problem with huge umbrellas. Anita's criticisms are perfectly valid for Anita. Another woman who considers herself a feminist (or even one who doesn't) or another guy who considers himself sensitive to women's feelings (or a white knight as the haters will call him, darn him and his rebellion from the penis!)  will have different takes on what qualifies as "acceptable" in a genre, game style, comic, or media. It's not just nerd pastimes that are nuanced and multilayered.

 

Once we get past the "Tits or GTFO," "Treating women like customers and fans and not interlopers," and other low hanging fruit in the battle against sexism, the ideas of what is wrong or right tend to blur a tad. 

[McManus]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Well, first you ask yourself if you're treating everyone the same way you'd want to be treated.

 

If i find myself judging people based on appearance/race/gender/age/style of dress/facial hair/number of tattoos or peircings/etc (something i try not ot do, but it occasionally happens) I force myself to assume that they are a physics doctoral student (instead of a biker for instance). It does change the way I think about them and I find myself treating them differently as well.

 

I imaginge everyone prejudges sometimes. Being aware of it and take steps to avoid it is the best I can do so far.

[Tasha]

http://ageofravens.blogspot.com/2013/11/cat-rambo-taught-me-d.html

"She played in the early days of rpgs and gaming around here, often the lone female gamer in these groups. I saw the shit she went through. She would tell stories about the funny stuff, but I knew there was a lot more she didn’t talk about. I saw some of it. The misogyny, the jokes about characters getting raped, the fans of John Norman’s Gor, the condescension, and even divisiveness among the few female gamers. If I can claim any right to be called a Feminist, claim any enlightenment about women’s issues and especially their struggles in hobby circles- that comes from my sister. She enjoyed fantasy & sci-fi, loved games, and she kept going regardless of the asshatery around her. "

[Cygnia]

No girls allowed

Unraveling the story behind the stereotype of video games being for boys.

[death tribble]

In light of some of what has been reported at the conventions and geek communities Dragonmeet is implementing an Anti-Harassment Policy. Now it ain't a big convention but it may help. I will be there.

http://www.dragonmeet.co.uk/

[Cygnia]

 

The Two Most Inexplicable Examples of Video Game Community Harassment This Week

 

[Cygnia]

 

‘Men’s Rights’ and ‘Revenge Porn’ Sites Seethe With Anger Over Women’s Autonomy

 

[Enforcer84]

yeah...those guys are really swell. And VERY self-aware. 

[Tasha]

Here's an interesting article about Male Privilege. From people who have experienced being Female and are now Male. Very interesting conversations.

 

http://www.thegloss.com/2013/01/31/career/trans-men-male-privilege/

[Shadow Hawk]

What is Warner Bros. thinking?

 

http://www.themarysue.com/warner-bros-animation-girl-market/

[Enforcer84]

What is Warner Bros. thinking?

 

http://www.themarysue.com/warner-bros-animation-girl-market/

Hard to believe they are. 

[Cygnia]

Dini, I am disappointed.

[The Weapon]

http://www.comicmix.com/columns/2012/07/10/emily-s-whitten-geek-culture-no-really-were-not-more-enlightened/

 

I think that she makes some really good points. Some of the things she talks about are things that I have seen here on the Hero Boards and in many other geek communities.

 

Enjoy,

Tasha

 

---------

Emily S. Whitten: Geek Culture – No, Really, We’re Not More Enlightened

 

by Emily S. Whitten on July 10, 2012 at 1:00 pm Posted In: Columns

 

The third reason is that while all this is going on (and trust me, it is ongoing) geek culture seems to think it’s actually super-progressive and feminist in comparison to the rest of the world, and is sometimes obnoxiously self-congratulatory about that fact, while misogyny floats around unchecked in our geek content and culture. (Seriously, read that link for some current examples of the awful stuff that’s happening right now, such as the attacks on Anita Sarkeesian, which actually made me shudder in horror.)

 

Sarkessian is a dishonest, manipulative, ignorant schemer.  She's getting significantly less harassment than a guy would who said what she said and what she got she courted deliberately to get money.  

 

The rest of your article seems well-reasoned and honest, but Sarkessian got what she deserved.

[The Weapon]

‘Men’s Rights’ and ‘Revenge Porn’ Sites Seethe With Anger Over Women’s Autonomy

The claim that Men's Rights sites "seethe with anger" is backed up with... ideas for a book cover.  That's it.  Really?   Because they think that the fact that women have the power sexually that means what?  

"And that this is the real oppression, and not all that feminist jibber-jabber about rape, domestic violence, abortion bans, and pay inequity. Indeed, that women are actively oppressing men because women don’t accede to demands to have sex with any man just because he wants it."

 

 

Actually MRAs have been talking a lot about rape and domestic violence. I have heard feminists minimize domestic violence against men.  I've NEVER heard an MRA minimize domestic violence against women.  

 

"For the anger and vitriol and whining at AVFM to make any sense, you have to assume that men are the rightful owners of women’s bodies."

 

Actually you just have to assume men are rightful owners of their own bodies.  

 

"The right of a woman to determine when she has sex and with whom is perceived in these circles as a theft by women of something that rightfully belongs to men. "

I've never heard anyone related to the MRA movement say anything like that.  MRAs are very much in favor of women determining when they have sex and with whom.  The MGTOW movement just doesn't want it to be with them.

[The Weapon]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Unfortunately, while it's easy to say "well, just learn self-defense!", not everyone is in a position to take that luxury. Like those assaulted by their fathers or brothers or other family members. Or those threatened with harm to their loved ones if they don't comply. Or the weapon is taken away from them/not able to be accessed in time. Or have been chemically incapacitated in some way via drugs &/or alcohol. Or your mind just freezes up, where you just CAN'T think or act clearly in time. Take precautions, fine. But why is it so difficult to teach people not to rape in the first place?

How does being assaulted by fathers or brothers or other family members prevent self-defense?  Yes there are circumstances where knowing self-defense doesn't work.  Although having the weapon taken away is so rare as to be insignificant.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn it.  

 

It's not difficult to not rape in the first place, but not every person wants to be a decent human being.  Should we ignore that fact?

[Jhaierr]

It's not difficult to not rape in the first place, but not every person wants to be a decent human being.  Should we ignore that fact?

 

I think you overlooked, "Take precautions, fine." The point is that we don't do much about teaching boys about respecting someone else's choices; we all too often place the responsibility of preventing rape on girls' shoulders instead. We should help women to defend themselves against others, but the bulk of the work should be in primary prevention (i.e., working on interventions for men who might take advantage of women). I'm not talking about grabbing women in parking garages and raping them; I'm talking about coercion, manipulation, taking advantage of inebriation, etc. The messages that we get from our culture tell us that women are here to please (heterosexual) men, and we have to work on undoing this in some way if we are going to create a better world where everyone understands what consent is. For those that don't or refuse, yes, take precautions against them.

[Ranxerox]

Sarkessian is a dishonest, manipulative, ignorant schemer.  She's getting significantly less harassment than a guy would who said what she said and what she got she courted deliberately to get money.  

 

The rest of your article seems well-reasoned and honest, but Sarkessian got what she deserved.

 

Even if she really is a "dishonest, manipulative, ignorant schemer", which I don't believe, that still just makes her just another internet troll and that doesn't make her deserving of death threats and rape threats.  If there are guys out there getting significantly more harassment for the same "crimes", they don't deserve it either.

[Enforcer84]

Sarkessian is a dishonest, manipulative, ignorant schemer.  She's getting significantly less harassment than a guy would who said what she said and what she got she courted deliberately to get money.  

 

The rest of your article seems well-reasoned and honest, but Sarkessian got what she deserved.

How is she dishonest? Did she not produce the videos she said she would in the Kickstarter? And no offense every kickstarter campaign is a deliberate attempt to get money. 

 

I've seen critiques of her videos, so I know they exist. Even when I don't agree with her I don't see where the "she was a scammer" arguments are valid. I know she didn't have the videos out in a lightning fast rate, but then MANY kickstarters are like that. The first one I ever donated to in 2012 I believe was the Banner Saga which claimed to be shipping in Nov 2012. Game still isn't out, but I don't see calls of violence or rape against the programmers. In fact, the opposite. There's a great community of people waiting for the game eagerly. 

 

However, if you have more insight into this than I do, let me know. I'm eager to hear what horrible things she did. 

[Enforcer84]

The claim that Men's Rights sites "seethe with anger" is backed up with... ideas for a book cover.  That's it.  Really?   Because they think that the fact that women have the power sexually that means what?  

"And that this is the real oppression, and not all that feminist jibber-jabber about rape, domestic violence, abortion bans, and pay inequity. Indeed, that women are actively oppressing men because women don’t accede to demands to have sex with any man just because he wants it."

 

 

Actually MRAs have been talking a lot about rape and domestic violence. I have heard feminists minimize domestic violence against men.  I've NEVER heard an MRA minimize domestic violence against women.  

 

"For the anger and vitriol and whining at AVFM to make any sense, you have to assume that men are the rightful owners of women’s bodies."

 

Actually you just have to assume men are rightful owners of their own bodies.  

 

"The right of a woman to determine when she has sex and with whom is perceived in these circles as a theft by women of something that rightfully belongs to men. "

I've never heard anyone related to the MRA movement say anything like that.  MRAs are very much in favor of women determining when they have sex and with whom.  The MGTOW movement just doesn't want it to be with them.

Really? The Men's rights advocates I read are VERY dismissive of rape victims. They seem to assume they're all liars. But again this is on internet comments boards where they can speak anonymously, and say things without it being attributed to them. They might be trolls. 

[薔薇語]

How is she dishonest? Did she not produce the videos she said she would in the Kickstarter? And no offense every kickstarter campaign is a deliberate attempt to get money. 

 

I've seen critiques of her videos, so I know they exist. Even when I don't agree with her I don't see where the "she was a scammer" arguments are valid. I know she didn't have the videos out in a lightning fast rate, but then MANY kickstarters are like that. The first one I ever donated to in 2012 I believe was the Banner Saga which claimed to be shipping in Nov 2012. Game still isn't out, but I don't see calls of violence or rape against the programmers. In fact, the opposite. There's a great community of people waiting for the game eagerly. 

 

However, if you have more insight into this than I do, let me know. I'm eager to hear what horrible things she did. 

Well among the things I have heard about her:

 

Extreme delay in her video series(understandable-ish)

Stolen and unaccredited game play footage from other youtubers (not understandable and extremely stupid - also a great way to not spend any of that money she pulled in)

There is a video of her explaining that she doesn't like video games at all - a claim that is in direct contradiction with her video series. 

 

I feel like I have heard more but I honestly didn't keep up with the issue. In general, I found her arguments to be pointless and ill-thought out. If she did receive threats, that is saddening but not unexpected of people on the net. 

 

As to MRAs; The only ones I know are ones I have seen on youtube and such. Most of the time they are polite and cordial. None of the ones I have listened to have been dismissive of rape - but I have heard a number of issues brought up about how the entire issue is perceived and criminal cases are conducted. 

 

La Rose. 

[Pattern Ghost]

 

It's not difficult to not rape in the first place,

 

Really?

 

 

• 76 or 63.3% were recidivists, and reported committing additional rapes, either against multiple victims or the same victim, averaging 5.8 rapes per person. (Lisak and Miller, 2002)

 

Seems hard for some folks.

[Enforcer84]

Well among the things I have heard about her:

 

Extreme delay in her video series(understandable-ish)

Stolen and unaccredited game play footage from other youtubers (not understandable and extremely stupid - also a great way to not spend any of that money she pulled in)

There is a video of her explaining that she doesn't like video games at all - a claim that is in direct contradiction with her video series. 

 

I feel like I have heard more but I honestly didn't keep up with the issue. In general, I found her arguments to be pointless and ill-thought out. If she did receive threats, that is saddening but not unexpected of people on the net. 

 

As to MRAs; The only ones I know are ones I have seen on youtube and such. Most of the time they are polite and cordial. None of the ones I have listened to have been dismissive of rape - but I have heard a number of issues brought up about how the entire issue is perceived and criminal cases are conducted. 

 

La Rose. 

Well, I think if you go to the comments on her Kickstarter Page you can see the threats - could be wrong could have been on her blog. I know someone made a flash game of punching her face, adding bruises, blood, and such to her. So no, I don't think taking a while to put her videos out and having view points I disagree with (and I do on some of them), as well as her saying she doesn't like video games an offense equal to what she received as threats, insults, and all around exhibiting the exact behavior they were accused of. 

 

I know that both sides on this issue tend to dove tail into territory I tend to eye-roll on, but the evidence I saw was by and large making her argument for her.