Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Ranxerox]

The claim that Men's Rights sites "seethe with anger" is backed up with... ideas for a book cover.  That's it.  Really?   Because they think that the fact that women have the power sexually that means what?  

"And that this is the real oppression, and not all that feminist jibber-jabber about rape, domestic violence, abortion bans, and pay inequity. Indeed, that women are actively oppressing men because women don’t accede to demands to have sex with any man just because he wants it."

 

 

Okay, now that I have some time, let me address this issue.  First the fact that women have the power sexually.  My use of italics may lead you to think that I'm about argue this fact, but while I don't know that the power sexually, I do agree that they have a power sexually*.  It comes from a lower average sex drive relative to men  ... and the power of women to say no.  So if you viewed this power as a problem, you could try increase sex drives of women (good luck inventing a working aphrodisiac), decrease the sex drive of men (there are drugs that do this but they have unpleasant side effects) or take away the ability of women to say no.

 

Now, I realize that the MRA movement isn't trying to take away women's right to say no.  However, I can see how all the MRA talk about how women have the power sexually (and you guys talk about it a lot) could make a women nervous.  After all it is one of the three ways to address the sexual power unbalance. 

 

Not that the MRA really thinks there is an redress to the sexual unbalance.  As far as I can tell, their plan is to give men societal perks or at least keep them from losing perks they already have, as a means of counterbalancing women's sexual power. 

 

 

*- Men have sexual power too, but that is post for another thread.

[Cygnia]

 

‘Men’s rights activists’ conspire to cripple college rape reporting system with false reports

 

[Hermit]

The Men's Human Rights Movements have drawn some very wounded, very bitter, and even some hateful individuals. Of course, Feminist movements have done the same for decades (Feel free to Youtube some of "Girl Writes What?"'s videos...even if you don't agree with her she makes you think). That doesn't excuse deliberate sabatogue of the reporting system. If they worry the reporting system could be abused, then there were better ways. It kind of reminds me of the recent Men's Human Rights Posters torn down in Vancouver by feminists. We need calm discourse, not destruction and censorship.

 

Both sides need to disassociate themselves from their extremists as best they can, but just like I can't keep the Westboro scumballs from calling themselves "christian" you're not going to be able to stop some truly damaged or even outright mean people from declaring themselves Feminsts or Men's Rights Activists. Indeed, both groups often seem to cover for their members. I still remember excuses being made for the Vagina monologue's "good rape" comments by some who delcared themselves feminists.

 

It's hard, but we need to judge the issues, not just the people championing them.

 

EDIT: And , as always, we have to avoid 'Broad Brush' syndrome

[薔薇語]

Well, I think if you go to the comments on her Kickstarter Page you can see the threats - could be wrong could have been on her blog. I know someone made a flash game of punching her face, adding bruises, blood, and such to her. So no, I don't think taking a while to put her videos out and having view points I disagree with (and I do on some of them), as well as her saying she doesn't like video games an offense equal to what she received as threats, insults, and all around exhibiting the exact behavior they were accused of. 

 

I know that both sides on this issue tend to dove tail into territory I tend to eye-roll on, but the evidence I saw was by and large making her argument for her. 

 

I fear that you and I may have had a misunderstanding. 

 

I do not think that her "taking a while..." or "saying she doesn't like video games" as being "an offense equal to... threats, insults". 

I do think such behavior is bad (saddening was my initial choice of words). 

But I am not surprised by such behavior on the net. Most anyone who gets any attention will also get bad attention. 

 

Now, I don't know if you meant to imply I thought otherwise, but I thought it best to clear that up. 

 

La Rose. 

[Enforcer84]

I fear that you and I may have had a misunderstanding. 

 

I do not think that her "taking a while..." or "saying she doesn't like video games" as being "an offense equal to... threats, insults". 

I do think such behavior is bad (saddening was my initial choice of words). 

But I am not surprised by such behavior on the net. Most anyone who gets any attention will also get bad attention. 

 

Now, I don't know if you meant to imply I thought otherwise, but I thought it best to clear that up. 

 

La Rose. 

Nah, I wouldn't assume that of you. Known you long enough. I was just providing what little anecdotal evidence I could to the discussion.

Indeed, the interwebz are a great place to go searching for reasons to avoid humanity

 

and like Hermit says, we don't get to choose who else identifies with our chosen tribes. I am a gamer nerd and wouldn't spend 15 seconds with some of us. And I'm just as guilty as anyone else despite my desires to not be so, I have to keep reminding myself to judge individuals not groups. 

[Cygnia]

 

Why Marketers Fear The Female Geek

 

[Hermit]

Any marketeer who doens't know how to cash in on accidental audiance shouldn't be in the biz imo.

 

Then again, I'm not a marketing guy, but still, such untapped potential

[Enforcer84]

that was a 

 

Why Marketers Fear The Female Geek

That was a very interesting article, thanks for posting it. 

 

I'm kind of confused though, do women/girls really buy things/shop at a fraction of the amount that men/boys do? 

I'm thinking back to the old extremely sexist ads of the 50's and such, about vacuums and spanking your wife for not buying the right coffee. 

This is smack dab in the middle of the "breadwinner" days and I would think women were doing the vast amount of grocery and other shopping - it seems odd that they would still market to men so heavily. 

 

or am I trying to cram a niche market into a wider consumer base?

[wcw43921]

Well, there was an online article--it may have been mentioned in this thread, actually--in which marketing was referred to as something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Games, toys and everything else marketable are targeted to a specific niche audience; therefore only that specific niche audience buys the games, toys and everything else that are marketed for them.  It may seem foolish and wrong to us on the outside, but on the inside of this world, it makes perfect sense--and dollars, for that matter, for as long as that paradigm seems to work for them, they will see no reason to change.

 

I don't know what it would take to change things, but every now and again I do notice some attempt to expand beyond a particular niche.  I remember during the height of Lynda Carter's popularity as Wonder Woman that there were some 12-inch Wonder Woman figures--not quite Barbie dolls, but not quite action figures, either.

 

http://www.megomuseum.com/wgsh/12/wonderwoman.html

 

There was a commercial for them that showed girls having a mock battle with the dolls, instead of dressing them up or having tea parties or other such things.   

 

Then there was the 12-inch Princess Leia doll from Kenner's Star Wars that tried to have it both ways.  It came with a plastic hairbrush that could be used to comb her hair into styles other than the Tyrolean double-bun that it came with out of the package--but it also came with a blaster pistol so she could shoot the 12-inch stormtrooper doll. 

 

The attempts by TSR to market Dungeons & Dragons beyond the hobby and wargaming stores deserves a bit of mention here.  There were commercials, and the game books and modules advertised for sale in the Sears Christmas Catalog and other catalogs.  Granted, advertising costs money--lots of it--but no other RPG was trying to reach beyond the hardcore tabletop gamer market.  There were no TV commercials for Runequest, or Tunnels & Trolls, or Traveller, or Champions.  (Which is a shame, because a commercial with animated sequences based off of Mark Williams' art would have been really nifty.)

 

Nowadays we have the "Rebelle" line of weapons from NERF, which are molded in white with black and purple trim, and feature girls on the package using the weapons.  Now I would think that a NERF gamer, male or female, would be more concerned with things like rate-of-fire and ammo capacity than how the weapon looks--but at least it's not colored pink.

 

I don't know what it would take to erase sexism from the geek world.  I don't even know if the things I've mentioned above are steps in the right direction to take things away from the isolation that perpetuates the sort of sexism we've seen mentioned in the articles linked in this thread.  They seem that way to me.  Take them as you will.

[Cygnia]

Sadly, it's not specifically a geek problem, in terms of advertising.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/drink/2013/12/gender_specific_spirits_cognac_for_men_and_whiskey_for_women_are_dumb_and.html

 

I've sampled Skinnygirl.  I'm not impressed.  It's too bloody sweet and I actually broke out in a rash after drinking it.

[Cygnia]

 

Why Women Aren’t Welcome on the Internet

 

[Old Man]

 

Nowadays we have the "Rebelle" line of weapons from NERF, which are molded in white with black and purple trim, and feature girls on the package using the weapons.  Now I would think that a NERF gamer, male or female, would be more concerned with things like rate-of-fire and ammo capacity than how the weapon looks--but at least it's not colored pink.

 

I wonder how well that line is doing.  Like you I would assume that standard NERF weaponry are pretty unisex.  But that said, you'd think that Lego would be the same way, yet I am hearing that Lego's "Friends" line of purple-box, socia-play-oriented, female-targeted sets are doing quite well after decades of Lego trying and failing to increase their female customer base.  (Belville, anyone?)  Did Lego come to girls, or did girls finally come to Lego?  I have to admit I have no idea.

 

And also, have you seen NERF weapons nowadays?  Full auto, clip-fed machine guns and sniper rifles?  Where was this stuff thirty years ago?

[Tasha]

Why Women Aren’t Welcome on the Internet

LOL here you go beating me to the punch again

 

Tasha

[Tasha]

I wonder how well that line is doing.  Like you I would assume that standard NERF weaponry are pretty unisex.  But that said, you'd think that Lego would be the same way, yet I am hearing that Lego's "Friends" line of purple-box, socia-play-oriented, female-targeted sets are doing quite well after decades of Lego trying and failing to increase their female customer base.  (Belville, anyone?)  Did Lego come to girls, or did girls finally come to Lego?  I have to admit I have no idea.

 

And also, have you seen NERF weapons nowadays?  Full auto, clip-fed machine guns and sniper rifles?  Where was this stuff thirty years ago?

 

Women who would would buy NERF guns anyways aren't the market for the Rebelle line. I think the idea is to get Nerf Guns over on the Pink Aisle so little girls can choose their NERF weaponry along with their Pink Princess toys. Also White, Black and Purple are neutral enough that if a little boy got one they wouldn't be turned off by the "Girl Toy".

[Tasha]

Also one thing I have noticed is when a guy posts something controversial, they may be called Homosexual and names to say they are a female. I never see guys threaten other guys with Rape. That only seems to happen when Women say something that certain men find distasteful or they disagree with. You also see the standard Misogynist stuff about making food, or going back to the kitchen. Always there is some jerk that threatens sexual assault. I am sorry no matter how much you disagree with someone, there is no cause to threaten to rape them.

[Enforcer84]

You'll have to forgive me for not clicking that link I don't want the brain pain. I can imagine it, as I spend WAY too much time on the internet. 

 

Particularly in Tech Forums and Gaming forums where women are still constantly on the defensive, if not from the group they're talking to (but sometimes them as well) but their stories about being female and in the IT world. Some people (of both sexes) just can't comprehend women in the tech field. (though to be frank it's more of the penile/testicle side of the sex aisle that seems to have an issue with it.)

[Enforcer84]

Also one thing I have noticed is when a guy posts something controversial, they may be called Homosexual and names to say they are a female. I never see guys threaten other guys with Rape. That only seems to happen when Women say something that certain men find distasteful or they disagree with. You also see the standard Misogynist stuff about making food, or going back to the kitchen. Always there is some jerk that threatens sexual assault. I am sorry no matter how much you disagree with someone, there is no cause to threaten to rape them.

There's more male/male rape reference in video games though. "We raped them," "We got raped," and "How does my [insert word for penis here] taste?" are very much used in gender neutral war-games. Battle grounds in WoW or WvW in GW2 there is still that and it doesn't matter the gender of the character. Especially since the basic assumption by most of the users of such phrases tend to be shocked to find a woman playing the game. 

 

I have heard serious horror stories about things said to girls over team-speak and such. But the same references are made when girls are not there. That's using rape=dominance; or prison fantasies. I don't know. 

 

Now as to actual threats in forums and stuff - mixed bag from my experience. I don't see as many threats on Reddit as I do "Oh you'd be fine if it was a guy who was so abused." "Let's see how funny that would be if a guy said it!" kind of talk. 

 

But I don't live in the deepest parts of Reddit, so I thankfully don't see too much. 

 

Oops I forgot to concur; threatening someone in an argument is pretty much the point you lost the argument. If you can't respond to the challenge intellectually, it's no longer an argument, you lost. You might be factually even be correct, but you lost the argument because you couldn't keep it on an intellectual level. At which point you're just a stupid [choose your favorite insult here].

[Cancer]

Maybe I just don't hang around in the same places everyone else does, but I have to admit I have never seen first-hand any of the **** described in the last couple of weeks. All it's done is convince me I will never, ever use Twitter, period.

[Enforcer84]

there's the temptation. I did join twitter, but only to tell comedian Dara O'Briain that my mother once KO'd a burglar with a frying pan, in clear defiance of his brilliant bit on the Frying Pan controversy. 

 

But yeah, I've read twitter battles between he and people who don't like him. 

And I don't read comment sections of articles I read. 

[Cygnia]

 

Let’s Be Real: Online Harassment Isn’t ‘Virtual’ For Women

 

[Cygnia]

 Seeming Female: Gender in Digital Spaces

[Cygnia]

 

She Was Harassed By A Games Reporter. Now She's Speaking Out.

 

[Cygnia]

 

Nerds and Male Privilege: Sexual Harassment and Nerd Culture

 

[Cygnia]

 

To Boob or Not to Boob

 

[Cygnia]

Why The "Fake Geek Girl" Meme Needs To Die

 

No True Geek: The Mythical Faken-Geek