Twilight Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Really? Cassandra Cain was just a gender swapped Damien Wayne? The character who never killed anybody during the entire run of her comic? The character who was good friends with Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown (both of whom you might recall, Damien Wayne cannot stand) is just a genderswapped Damian Wayne? Really? Oh and while you're blabbering about generations and decades of marketability, I'd like to remind you that Barbara Gordon spent most of those decades as a backup character in somebody else's comic when she was Batgirl. In fact prior to The Killing Joke she'd been languishing in comicbook limbo for years and nobody really gave a toss. She only became marketable when somebody turned her into Oracle and made her more then just Batman's distaff counterpart. It was only when she became Oracle that Barbara Gordon could carry her own comicbook, prior to that she was C-list fodder. Oh and allow me to point and laugh at you claiming the comic that ran 75 issues was losing money (how pray tell did it run 75 issues if that was the case I wonder?) while the comic that you claim wasn't making money was removed from existence without a second thought. Not that I'm happy that Steph had the Batgirl mantle removed from her, she was more successful as Batgirl as well. Clearly however, you're not going to listen to anything I have to say on the subject so I'll just put you back on my ignore list and hope that other people might actually want to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Really? Cassandra Cain was just a gender swapped Damien Wayne? The character who never killed anybody during the entire run of her comic? The character who was good friends with Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown (both of whom you might recall, Damien Wayne cannot stand) is just a genderswapped Damian Wayne? Really? Oh and while you're blabbering about generations and decades of marketability, I'd like to remind you that Barbara Gordon spent most of those decades as a backup character in somebody else's comic when she was Batgirl. In fact prior to The Killing Joke she'd been languishing in comicbook limbo for years and nobody really gave a toss. She only became marketable when somebody turned her into Oracle and made her more then just Batman's distaff counterpart. It was only when she became Oracle that Barbara Gordon could carry her own comicbook, prior to that she was C-list fodder. Oh and allow me to point and laugh at you claiming the comic that ran 75 issues was losing money (how pray tell did it run 75 issues if that was the case I wonder?) while the comic that you claim wasn't making money was removed from existence without a second thought. Not that I'm happy that Steph had the Batgirl mantle removed from her, she was more successful as Batgirl as well. Clearly however, you're not going to listen to anything I have to say on the subject so I'll just put you back on my ignore list and hope that other people might actually want to debate. I've posted the numbers before in numerous threads, and no, I said Damien Wayne was just a gender swapped Cassandra Cain. Since you seem far more interested in trying to pick a fight with me personally as opposed to a back and forth over comics, well, we can agree to disagree. Feel free to use the ignore if you wish, I've yet to use it myself for anyone regardless of how snarky and such folks feel like being towards me. ...... Either way, Numbers are Numbers. Cassandra Cain's book if I recall (may have missed a year while digging through the boxes and the site), Never in the Top 100 for the Year, and Never in the top 30 for a month (still verifying that though possible to have missed one)... C-List Fodder Girl, is in the Top 100 for the relaunch, And Every Issue has been in the Top 30 (though a few are dipping pretty low.... still an almost unheard of feat for a character not Superman or Batman) That's a good sign. In the Mean time to get back on topic..... Marvel Good: Guardians of the Galaxy ..... Marvel Bad: Canceling the Original X-Title to keep one of the spin offs yet making that spin off the Story that was covered under the original title and numbers. DC Good: Krypto coming back (in some form) .... DC Bad: Mucking around with Adam Blake.. (Apparently....though the story unfolds....) ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC I'll agree with you on Damian Wayne. In fact I've put my distaste of that little monster in print here more then once.....Much as I have Cassandra Cain. But then' date=' all Damian really is is Cassandra Cain with a chromosome shift and a bit more of a vocabulary. 75 Issues btw is considered a [u']Failure [/u]in the Comic Book Industry. Success is measured in Generations, and Decades of Marketable Characters and Cassandra Cain wasn't anything more then DC's entry into the fad of Waif Fu "HAWTGURLZ!" in Skintight Leather. ~Rex I'm not going to disagree with you about Cassandra Cain, since I never cared for her. However, I am going disagree about the standard of success. Characters that title their own books for decades/generations are extremely rare. Making them the standard of success is like saying that all actors that don't make at least 20 million dollars a picture are failures just because some do. By your criteria of success Shang Chi - Failure GrimJack - Failure Jon Sable - Garbage not worth talking about The Micronauts - Who? Rom SpaceKnight - Failure Nexus - Failure Badger - Junk The Human Fly - Dog poop The New Mutants - Failure Whisper - Junk etcetera Personally, I consider any book that makes it to its fiftieth issue in the brutal world of comic book publishing to be a success. Heck, even managing to publish 12 issues of a title is something to be proud of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC DC Good: Frankenstein, Agent of SHADE DC Bad: Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis Marvel Good: Making fun comics like Avengers Academy Marvel Bad: Civil War, House of M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC DC Good: Eartha Kitt as Catwoman DC Bad: Halle Berry as Catwoman Marvel Bad: Halle Berry as Storm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Doc D Bad: I cannot see Halle Berry and not show some appreciation. Its a weakness... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Marvel Bad: Halle Berry as Storm Fair enough. Who would have been better? Jaida Pinkett? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC I'm not going to disagree with you about Cassandra Cain, since I never cared for her. However, I am going disagree about the standard of success. Characters that title their own books for decades/generations are extremely rare. Making them the standard of success is like saying that all actors that don't make at least 20 million dollars a picture are failures just because some do. By your criteria of success Shang Chi - Failure GrimJack - Failure Jon Sable - Garbage not worth talking about The Micronauts - Who? Rom SpaceKnight - Failure Nexus - Failure Badger - Junk The Human Fly - Dog poop The New Mutants - Failure Whisper - Junk etcetera Personally, I consider any book that makes it to its fiftieth issue in the brutal world of comic book publishing to be a success. Heck, even managing to publish 12 issues of a title is something to be proud of. Oh very true, and I more then agree and could add to that list. My point though is simply an Apples to Apples, Raw Numbers comparison in a generalist sense of the Industry (pretty much how their own trade material puts it). It's not meant to be taken at 100% Literal. Not all Stories can be stretched for Decades upon Decade. In fact the golden rule of a good story is a Beginning, a Middle, and an Ending. Many of my favorite books and characters and companies have Failed. Doesn't mean I don't like or support them but it does mean I don't put That one up against one of the Titles that's been a power house for generations and say they are Equal. There may be elements that are, or aspects that are even superior but at the base level with these companies, success is measured in Money, and if it's making money it stays around. If it's Gone, but yet still sparks real interest (Jon Sable for example another of my favorites), then now it's a Collectible, and starts earning a different type of value. That's all before getting into things that are only meant to go so far on purpose, and or other formats like the graphic novel format..... I'd say with the current environment anything that hits 25 Issues is doing good. You used to be able to follow the same sort of law that "success" in TV is Measured by. "X" amount of seasons etc etc but now there are so many books, heh. Some of these new books are making some pretty impressive drives yet there is still a lot of "John Cena, LIKE HIM!" going on with a few titles (Blue Beetle (though the Young Justice Cartoon has nailed the part perfect), Firestorm, any Wildstorm product, X-Book product, Wolverine is Here etc etc) but that's typical in periodicals. Throw it all against the wall and see what sticks. You can flop horribly in the Industry and make a huge comeback if there is an interest and a fanbase. Valiant has shown that, and so have a few other companies as well. Either way, topic..... Marvel Good: A "fixed up" Hank Pym ... Marvel Bad: Brian Bendis making Moon Knight have the multiple personalities of Captain America, Spider-Man and Wolverine .... DC Good: Adding to the background of existing characters in a way that doesn't destroy Continuity...... DC Bad: Flipping the reset on their Continuity every 5-10 Years in a badly written manner...... ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Fair enough. Who would have been better? Jaida Pinkett? Hmm, back in the day, I would have preferred Angela Basset. A bit later, someone like Salli Richardson-Whitfield. Nowadays, I'd lean towards someone like Yaya DaCosta, or Garcelle Beauvais. Especially Garcelle Beauvais that woman is insanely good looking..... ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Regarding Halle Berry as Catwoman, I think the main problem was the character concept that started in Batman Returns. Catwoman is a woman who decided to become a world class thief. The movies would have us believe it was some mystic forces that turned women into catlike creatures, thus taking any personal responsibility for ones choices. That might be a Hoilywood thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Regarding Halle Berry as Catwoman, I think the main problem was the character concept that started in Batman Returns. Catwoman is a woman who decided to become a world class thief. The movies would have us believe it was some mystic forces that turned women into catlike creatures, thus taking any personal responsibility for ones choices. That might be a Hoilywood thing. I think they were trying for the golden age origin, you know the airline hostess with amnesia from a knock on the head from a plane crash one. But they missed the part where she had made that up to escape a life of crime bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Hmm, back in the day, I would have preferred Angela Basset. A bit later, someone like Salli Richardson-Whitfield. Nowadays, I'd lean towards someone like Yaya DaCosta, or Garcelle Beauvais. Especially Garcelle Beauvais that woman is insanely good looking..... ~Rex I'm not familiar with a lot of those ladies. If she'd been a bit younger at the time, I would have said Pam Grier. Mind you, I've only seen her in Jackie Brown. She seemed like the kind of woman who could pull off that mix of regal and beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC DC Good: Krypto coming back (in some form) .... DC Bad: Mucking around with Adam Blake.. (Apparently....though the story unfolds....) I think we got a preview of Krypto during the Krypton flashback in Action. It's definitely a different look, but I don't find it a problem. Still concerned about Blake. Not an out and out villain so far, just someone with different goals. I bet he's being set up as a contrast to Supes, like how Supes might have turned out in different circumstances. Fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC I'm not familiar with a lot of those ladies. If she'd been a bit younger at the time' date=' I would have said Pam Grier. Mind you, I've only seen her in Jackie Brown. She seemed like the kind of woman who could pull off that mix of regal and beautiful.[/quote'] Beauvais I recall from her stint on NYPD Blue, and I think she'd have the acting chops to pull off Storm. Pam Grier is just plain awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC 75 Issues btw is considered a Failure in the Comic Book Industry. Success is measured in Generations' date=' and Decades[/b'] of Marketable Characters and Cassandra Cain wasn't anything more then DC's entry into the fad of Waif Fu "HAWTGURLZ!" in Skintight Leather. Marvel Good: Agents of Atlas, Jimmy Woo, and the Avengers: 1950's arc..... Marvel Bad: One More Day. Civil War. Fear Itself. Changing Ms. Marvel into Captain Marvel. DC Good: Nightwing back in his own book (Even if Dick Grayson still blows up the DC timeline), The Earth One Graphic Novels. The JSA. DC BAD: Dropping the JSA, CHANGING CAPTAIN MARVEL'S NAME and POWERS to make him more.... AWESOME. (Note to DC. The Big Red Cheese is Beyond Awesome.) Not using the relaunch to give us back Val Armorr. I note none of your "Goods" have a publishing history of generations (few have the 75 issues Cassandra Cain managed - Nightwing beats that number) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC DC Bad: starting the numbering over, I was so looking forward to Action & Detective Comics #1000. They should of had two numbers like when they brought back Adventure Comics a little while ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC I'm not familiar with a lot of those ladies. If she'd been a bit younger at the time' date=' I would have said Pam Grier. Mind you, I've only seen her in Jackie Brown. She seemed like the kind of woman who could pull off that mix of regal and beautiful.[/quote'] Very much so Pam Grier was a striking woman. Seen pretty much everything she's been in. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC I note none of your "Goods" have a publishing history of generations (few have the 75 issues Cassandra Cain managed - Nightwing beats that number) Oh I could post that but that's Easy, and removes a lot of the good "Bad" posts I could go on with ad infinium. I don't why people want to stick to the most literal interpretation unless it's for some need to "win". I've got PILES of books I loved, and companies, that crashed and burned, pretty sure there are things I found to be awesome that others Despised as well. Different Strokes, I can accept that without having to go after the individual that disagreed with me. Besides, more interesting to go after the Product, like Batgirl, All 75 Issues plus variant covers that I own in the Long Box with the rest of the unbroken line of Every Bat-Book written since 1975, when I started buying them with my own money, and a few older then that..... Hated that book, but I picked it up because I Love the Franchise. Kinda like football. Love my Team, can't stand a few players here or there.... SO, that being said.... Topic..... Marvel Good (Generations): Daredevil, Captain America, The Amazing Spider-Man (specifically that book) Marvel Bad: The Constant Relaunches of the Above Three Titles and the Unnecessary Imprint Shifts and or Soft Retcon's.... DC Good (Generations): Detective Comics. Action Comics. DC Bad: Forgetting the sheer depth of stories in those two titles and "recreating" something which was already done a few times over the decades. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC DC Bad: starting the numbering over, I was so looking forward to Action & Detective Comics #1000. Naive it may be, but I remain optimistic that at some point (probably for an anniversary issue) they will go back to the original numbering for those books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Naive it may be' date=' but I remain optimistic that at some point (probably for an anniversary issue) they will go back to the original numbering for those books.[/quote'] At least for Action and Detective. The Rest they can renumber....... ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Hmm, back in the day, I would have preferred Angela Basset. A bit later, someone like Salli Richardson-Whitfield. Nowadays, I'd lean towards someone like Yaya DaCosta, or Garcelle Beauvais. Especially Garcelle Beauvais that woman is insanely good looking..... ~Rex If we're talking Storm, I always though Iman had that exotic beauty that would do the character justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted July 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC I didn't mind Halle Berry as Storm. I minded that they killed Cyclops and made Jean Grey the most powerful being in the universe with the mind of Cher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC But Cyclops had to go play Lois Lane's love interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC •sigh• DC will get it right eventually. Some day. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC Well, if this is true, DC's just added more to the "Bad" list... http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/27516673789/stephanie-brown-wasnt-removed-from-smallville-due-to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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