The Death of Knowledge Skills:

[psyber624]

KS: Everything, 11-, OAF Focus (Internet Access of Opportunity, usually a smartphone, -1) Extra time (1 min, - 1 1/2) Final Cost: 1 point. Everyman Skill. Known as "Google".....

 

Thoughts?

[culhwch]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

That is one way to do it. IMO, uou would need more than 11- because the penaltys for finding specific knowledge would be a killer.

[concord]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

maybe for trivial things or quick answers, but in depth knowledge would take much longer...

 

now maybe on a roll of 30-, it might work... but at that level the cost becomes reasonable for applicability in game...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Yeah, you take a -5 penalty for every unit of measurement smaller than 'everything', so you're very rapidly going to find that useless for any question other than 'Is there a universe?'

 

And, of course, most GMs would simply say 'HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAno'.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Yeah, you take a -5 penalty for every unit of measurement smaller than 'everything', so you're very rapidly going to find that useless for any question other than 'Is there a universe?'

 

And, of course, most GMs would simply say 'HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAno'.

He's suggesting it as an Everyman Skill.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

He's suggesting it as an Everyman Skill.

 

And both my arguments stand. It's still a> nearly useless and even if it weren't, b> the DM can say 'No, we're not adding that to my game'.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

And both my arguments stand. It's still a> nearly useless and even if it weren't' date=' b> the DM can say 'No, we're not adding that to my game'.[/quote']

I'm not arguing your "b" point. It just seemed that you were looking at it as a Player asking if he could take that as a skill. Not sure why a GM would laugh in someone's face (and am pretty sure "most GMs", in fact, wouldn't) for simply trying something new, either as suggesting it as an Everyman Skill or wanting to actually buy it as a skill. What is your actual reason for disallowing it? It surely can't be a game balance issue as it only costs 1 point and you yourself claim it is "nearly useless".

 

To the OP:

Personally I don't think you need this as a skill at all. It is generally assumed most characters can use common technology.

[Ternaugh]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

It's not too bad, from a GM standpoint. Much like the Library Data in Traveller, it can be used by a creative (or cruel) GM to plant adventure seeds and red herrings. And if the GM doesn't want it to work, then there's always "No Signal" for the device. I'd agree with bigbywolfe and make it just a common technology for no points.

 

From a player standpoint, I'd still want those real Knowledge Skills.

 

JoeG

[griffinman01]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Knowing how google works and what kind of hits you can get on broad searches I think it would also be pretty funny for the occasional misinformation to pop in.

 

In all honesty, I agree that it shouldn't be a skill but a factor of the technology. I think that everyman skills should be stuff that you can inherently do as a human without any equipment.

 

With regards to google, I would probably have it be a basic (11-) roll that would follow normal KS restrictions, but at a reduced cost (say -1 to the roll rather than -5 per level). You could do expanded time or have computer programming as a complementary skill. Though I think in most cases the GM could just give you the info without the roll unless it's a major plot spoiler.

[Tech]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Even if I allowed it, which I as a GM wouldn't, there are flaws in this. Using the internet to find a specific item can take from a moment to many hours, depending on what you're searching for. Also, your smartphone isn't going to help you crack a supervillain's security code, make you anywhere near a competent safe cracker, and on & on. I've done searches for ordinary items that gave me a chemical website - go figure. I would allow a character to use a smartphone but there are limits to what can be searched, where you can search (...there goes the signal, etc) and the time it takes to find it.

 

Give me specific skills any day and as a GM, I'll let your character shine.

[Ndreare]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Related to this, I have allowed characters to access player based internet knowledge on a character making a successful INT or Research roll. Afterall if the nerd at the table can do it, why not the genious in the game.

In real life Google-fu is not only everyman, but many people spend points in it. I know people who not only know how to find stuff, they pay premium subscriptions to sites with more accurate information or interesting articals like MEmagazine

[Martin2]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

I think having an internet link would have a very basic KS roll and also need extended time required to use it.

 

Accessing the internet and sifting through various web sites takes time.

 

So if you need an instant answer it is useless.

 

It is good for basic information but getting detailed knowledge and how to use that knowledge is a lot harder and needs other skills.

 

Also I would say if someone doesnt want you to have that information it is easy to fill up the internet with false information.

 

You want to know who was voted in which year fine.

 

You want to know what the weakness of a super villain? Well on this site it says electricity, this says it is water and this one says they have not got any etc.

[Diamondback]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Google helps a LOT, but there's also a lot of arcana in specialized areas that you still have to dig through dank, dusty archives for, and some things that are still only handed down orally or on paper (for example, we couldn't build the USS Missouri today even if we HAD to because nobody knows how to make the Special Treatment Steel her hull plates are made of anymore).

 

One of the things I wish I could afford to do is fully digitize and upload the entire unclassified/declassified holdings of the US National Archives, with an endowment set up to fund the same as new material is declassified in perpetuity...

[phoenix240]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

"Looking for information online is like panning for gold in an open sewer. You may find a few choice nuggets but you're going to have to wade through allot of crap first."

[psyber624]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

I posted the idea after doing a number of rather successful internet searches on a number of topics with a high level of success. It was meant more as a commentary on modern society than an actual suggestion for a game. (I think I should have posted it in the NGD forum anyway). However my intention was to spark some discussion so it seems it was a success. (I intended to comment more on this after the first few comments but have been unable to reach the website lately).

 

It just seems that so many KS's are information that can be obtained with a simple websearch. Yes, a specific KS gives you more information and readier access to it but in reality unless you have a great GM that loves to make skills shine most of them are rarely applicable to the game. I was also wondering how much "web access" different GM's allow their players. Web access + any level of computer capability + a little time can present you with most information these days. Especially if you have any Google Fu. Not all by any means of course, but an extensive volume (and probably anything that would not require a decent difficulty modifier on the appropriate KS in the first place.)

[Asperion]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

There are two points I would like to mention here:

 

1 - Most search engines have very little regulations on what goes on their sites. This means that anyone searching will need to dig through ALOT of info before they discover what they are looking for (assuming it can even be found at all). Another subpoint here - it is not up to the engine to guarantee that what goes on their site is either true or false - that belong upon the person/organization who posted.

 

2 - Even if someone can find something out there does not guarantee that he can use it. Discovering that steel is made of x% iron with y% carbon and further ways to modify it does not mean that you will be able to start making steel in your living room. The same applies to most things that exist out there - just because you can find out how it is made/done does not mean that one will be able to do it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

As I often tell my students, there's a difference between "knowledge" and "data." Internet searches can provide you with the latter, but are usually short on giving background with which to evaluate the data's accuracy and relevance. The information is limited to whatever the person making the entry considered interesting or useful. The ability to see the data within a wider context, and to make imaginative connections between it and other areas of knowledge, is greater the longer one has had to absorb and digest it.

[psyber624]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

2 - Even if someone can find something out there does not guarantee that he can use it. Discovering that steel is made of x% iron with y% carbon and further ways to modify it does not mean that you will be able to start making steel in your living room. The same applies to most things that exist out there - just because you can find out how it is made/done does not mean that one will be able to do it.

 

Definitely True, but then even KS: Mineral Composition won't on its own give you the ability to make steel in your living room either. It would probably give you some more info on how to do so than a 1 min search would give you, but you would need a PS: Metalsmith (or something like that) to actually be able to make it. KS's are basically JUST knowledge. They provide you with the information, but not the practical ability to do anything.

 

And I agree with Lord Liaden, however I wonder how much that distinction comes up in the course of gameplay.

 

Of course, I am not really trying to argue that we should do away with KS's. At the end of the day they still provide a number of very relative in game functions that a Google Skill would not (Namely they are a source for complementary skill rolls for other skills, among other things. )

[griffinman01]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

The thing I always look at is that, even in today's smart phone society, people still go to school and learn facts/knowledge that you can't easily find on the internet. I'm a scientist and I can tell you from experience that trying to find anything really scientific through a google search is nearly impossible. Not only that but, as other people have stated, a lot of the information that's posted is wrong (either due to malicious intent to mislead people or simple misunderstanding) so search engines are a mixed bag. As someone who's done some teaching I can assure you that google is generally just meant to be for quick facts and no real knowledge. You can't expect to find and understand the complete history of the Roman Empire, the biochemical function of proteins, or how a car works in a minute search.

 

A lot of this is identifying what kind of data is readily available through a search engine. You could identify a chemical as toxic pretty easily, but it would be a hell of a lot harder to find out how to counteract the toxic effects. This is where the GM would have to draw the line on the ability so that people who have KS: Industrial Chemicals or SS: Chemistry get what they paid for. Personally I'd limit it to quick facts: The name of the current president of a company, when did WW2 start, is Cyanic acid corrosive, etc. If you're looking for what the company does, the causes of WW2, or what are the differences between Cyanic acid and isocyanic acid, then I'd say you're SOL and can't find the info in a reasonable amount of time.

 

Plus, you have to deal with the whole reception thing.

 

EDIT: A fun way to determine if you could use it for a specific fact is have the player physically try to find the info himself in 30 seconds or so on his/her smart phone.

[Cancer]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Along similar lines: a site license for, say, Mathematica , is far from anything like Skill: Mathematics. Kind of like how ownership of a full (really full!) set of socket wrenches is still a far cry from PS: Auto Mechanic.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

EDIT: A fun way to determine if you could use it for a specific fact is have the player physically try to find the info himself in 30 seconds or so on his/her smart phone.

 

Oh, I'm going to have that tactic ready if this comes up in my games!

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

PS: Researcher?

 

The idea of an Everyman General Knowledge skill is fine: I think there should be one, and I would allow the use of equipment to give you a bonus to that roll. Mind you, it is going to take some time to search Google/the web and that is just part of the equipment limitations rather than something you get a bonus for.

 

Also there is a world of difference between being able to Google the circuit diagram for an detonation system and knowing which wire to cut on the bomb that is about to go off.

 

The other thing about actual knowledge is that it builds on itself. Knowing a lot about one thing tends to mean you know stuff about other fields and can draw parallels and conclusions that would not be obvious from looking up the data on one particular subject.

 

So, yes, fine, go for it, but I would not be sounding the death knell for Knowledge Skills just yet.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

PS: Researcher?

 

I've heard several professional researchers point out that effectively searching the Internet is itself a skill, comparable to navigating the stacks in a library. Anybody can blunder through given enough time, but to find something specific in an efficient manner requires some experience in using the system.

[phoenix240]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Maybe the base skill could be phrased more like "Information available on the Internet"? Not "everything" (particularly in more fantastic settings), not even necessarily accurate but its there.

[KA.]

Re: The Death of Knowledge Skills:

 

Considering the kind of information PC's often need, and the life and death consequences (in game anyway) of the application of that information. I think many GM's would rub their hands in glee at the idea of PC's actually doing this.

I know there is a lot of great information available, but there is so much absolute crap mixed in, especially in areas like Martial Arts, Weaponry, First Aid, Medicine, etc. that the results of using this information could be lethal, hilarious, or both.

 

KA.

 

P.S. Considering the kinds of things PC's are likely to be searching on Black Magic, Explosives, Improvised Weaponry, etc. you will eventually get to run a subplot where the FBI, ATF, or some other watchdog group shows up to see who is doing all these searches.