Agents Of SHIELD!

[Bazza]

LMDs were referenced in The Avengers. Also MCU & 616 are different continuities. 

[DasBroot]

I'm liking what I see so far this season - it continues to cruise along as a solid show.  Ghost Rider's had a few cool moments and as a longtime GR fan it's nice to see him in any incarnation in any medium.

[zslane]

LMDs were referenced in The Avengers. Also MCU & 616 are different continuities.

 

Okay, maybe I was too subtle again, but my question was not born from the misapprehension that the MCU and 616 are the same continuities, but from the lack of any clear reason why Marvel would choose to make the MCU different from 616 in this particular regard.

[Pattern Ghost]

You could also flip that question around and ask why would they make it the same?

 

The fact is that they didn't use them already. If they existed in Winter Soldier, Fury would have used one (or more). Since he didn't, then they probably didn't exist. Since they haven't existed in the MCU up until the last episode of the last season of AoS, that opens up an opportunity to use them as a plot point in the show, and to introduce them to the wider MCU (though I doubt anything from either of the TV franchises will make its way into the movies). I think AoS is the best place to introduce LMDs, provided the storyline is good.

[Bazza]

Okay, maybe I was too subtle again, but my question was not born from the misapprehension that the MCU and 616 are the same continuities, but from the lack of any clear reason why Marvel would choose to make the MCU different from 616 in this particular regard.

 

Why does have to explain why LMDs exist in 616 and are not in MCU? You could ask the same about every variance between the 616 main continuity and and the MCU, e.g. why only now have the other Elders of the Universe are showing up, Ego too, etc. 

 

It is simple, they are different, they have to be. The MCU is a remixed implementation inspired from 616. The MCU takes from the 616 what they (Marvel Studios) want, when they want it. We know this. 

 

It may be fun to speculate why LMDs are only appearing in MCU now, but Marvel is not beholden to give a reason other than "it is so" or "it makes sense now to introduce them". 

[zslane]

But they don't have to be different. It takes less effort to use the 616 as the underlying default, and only diverge from it when necessary. It allows them to leverage all that world-building and not reinvent the wheel at every turn. So when they do diverge from the obvious default, the question naturally becomes "Why?"

 

And not in a meta sense, but in terms of the MCU continuity itself. Is it because the MCU lacks the 616's most talented and prolific scientist/inventor (Reed Richards)? And as a result, many of the 616's inventions are either non-existant or waiting for someone else to invent them decades later? Did anyone at Marvel think about any of this? (I'm guessing the answer is no).

[Pattern Ghost]

I think you're seeing a flaw that isn't there. 616 started in the 60s, some elements well before that, under other publishers. You can't hold the MCU to the same timeline. Doesn't really work.

 

Edit: As far as timelines go: Strange Tales #135 introduced LMDs in 1965. Strange Tales started in 1951. So, the MCU is actually ahead of schedule.

[zslane]

The MCU timeline is not the same (in terms of every specific event) as 616, but it is just as long. There has been exactly as much time for LMDs (or any spiffy Marvel technology) to be developed in the MCU as in the 616. The MCU's timeline includes Celestials seeding Earth (and other planets) over the course of the universe's history. It includes primordial objects like the Infinity Stones, and genetic meddling by the Kree. Basically, anything that appeared in, say, 1965 in the 616 continuity could have existed in the MCU in its own version of 1965, and probably should have unless there is a really good in-continuity rationale for it not to be.

[Pattern Ghost]

Still, zero reason anything has to match 616.

[Hugh Neilson]

Because if everything in Marvel Earth 616 appeared on the same schedule in MCU, too much cool stuff would already have happened and not be usable in the movies or TV shows. It really is that simple.

[Bazza]

But they don't have to be different.

The commercial reality is that they ARE different. Wishful thinking is not going to change that. Marvel can and has brokered deals with existing rights-holders to use Marvel's characters in the MCU, e.g. The Incredible Hulk was distributed by Universal, not Disney.

 

The MCU is a new creative endeavour, a ground up, reimage & revised adaption for a new medium. This is necessary as the 50+ year history of comic books it is based on is a hinderance -- a ball and chain -- to the enjoyment of the films by a largely ignorant audience.

 

What you are suggesting is laughable. Really. You are suggesting that film audiences be very familiar with the background and source material before they purchase a movie ticket. This is only true for a subset of a film's audience, i.e. a minority, The (ignorant) majority is precisely the audience the films are aiming for, so to embed these characters in pop culture and gain the same familiarity Superman, Batman & Wonder Woman have enjoyed for decades, that can be leveraged in future. Needless to say with the success of the MCU, Marvel Studio's approach has proven to be working.

 

Case in point. I have one friend who is familiar with some comic book characters, he is largish posters of comic book covers downstairs in his home. He is unfamiliar with Doctor Strange and is wildly interested in the film, from the first trailer. I have another friend who largely ignores any comic book superhero film but is interested in Doctor Strange as he is a fan of Benedict Cumberbatch's portrayal of Sherlock Holmes. Why should both of these people be required to read a comic book to enjoy the film? The short answer is they don't; if they do, it will in likelihood increase their enjoyment watching it.

 

For me, I hope to read the prequel comic before I see the film, as I have different expectations.

 

Can we move on now, or do I have to save this post and repost it in a couple of months when the issue pops up again.

 

But they don't have to be different. It takes less effort to use the 616 as the underlying default, and only diverge from it when necessary. It allows them to leverage all that world-building and not reinvent the wheel at every turn. So when they do diverge from the obvious default, the question naturally becomes "Why?"

Answered above. In short, film audiences ARE NOT required to be familiar with the source material before buying a movie ticket. Ergo, do I have to read the book or the play to enjoy the film adaption of anything? Nope, thus the answer applies equally to comic book adaptions to film (or TV).

 

And not in a meta sense, but in terms of the MCU continuity itself. Is it because the MCU lacks the 616's most talented and prolific scientist/inventor (Reed Richards)? And as a result, many of the 616's inventions are either non-existant or waiting for someone else to invent them decades later? Did anyone at Marvel think about any of this? (I'm guessing the answer is no).

 

*chuckle*

[zslane]

I'm not articulating this properly.

 

I'm fine with there being differences. Of course there are going to be differences. The question I am interested in asking is what the in-continuity explanation might be for the differences. As a nerd who is familiar with the 616 continuity, I'm curious what the creatives at Marvel would say the in-continuity explanation is for these differences.

 

For example, if I had been sitting around in the writing room when it was pitched to have LMDs be invented during the final season of AoS, and I asked them what factors within the MCU itself caused them to not be created earlier, say in 1965 like they were in 616, what might they say? I'm inviting speculation amongst the forum members. What explanations could we come up with (as a thought exercise) for the differences?

 

I mean, let's say that the MCU wasn't technologically advanced enough in 1965 to have LMDs. What happened (or didn't happen) in the MCU's timeline that has kept them so far behind the 616 technologically?

[Pattern Ghost]

It's a new continuity. One of the benefits of a new continuity is not having to explain the differences. The answer is simple: Now is when they wanted to do it.

[zslane]

By "they" you mean SHIELD?

[Pattern Ghost]

I mean the creators.

[Bazza]

I'm not articulating this properly.

 

I'm fine with there being differences. Of course there are going to be differences. The question I am interested in asking is what the in-continuity explanation might be for the differences. As a nerd who is familiar with the 616 continuity, I'm curious what the creatives at Marvel would say the in-continuity explanation is for these differences.

 

For example, if I had been sitting around in the writing room when it was pitched to have LMDs be invented during the final season of AoS, and I asked them what factors within the MCU itself caused them to not be created earlier, say in 1965 like they were in 616, what might they say? I'm inviting speculation amongst the forum members. What explanations could we come up with (as a thought exercise) for the differences?

 

I mean, let's say that the MCU wasn't technologically advanced enough in 1965 to have LMDs. What happened (or didn't happen) in the MCU's timeline that has kept them so far behind the 616 technologically?

 

Fair enough. May i suggest reading the comics set in and commentary about the MCU. You might find some of those answers there. 

[zslane]

Right, okay.

 

I now realize that nobody is interested in this creative thought experiment except me.

 

I officially retract the question/proposal.

[Bazza]

I'm interested, just not right now.  

[Grailknight]

The MCU timeline is not the same (in terms of every specific event) as 616, but it is just as long. There has been exactly as much time for LMDs (or any spiffy Marvel technology) to be developed in the MCU as in the 616. The MCU's timeline includes Celestials seeding Earth (and other planets) over the course of the universe's history. It includes primordial objects like the Infinity Stones, and genetic meddling by the Kree. Basically, anything that appeared in, say, 1965 in the 616 continuity could have existed in the MCU in its own version of 1965, and probably should have unless there is a really good in-continuity rationale for it not to be.

 

Like the X-Men or the Fantastic Four?

[Pattern Ghost]

Right, okay.

 

I now realize that nobody is interested in this creative thought experiment except me.

 

I officially retract the question/proposal.

 

I may have misread your intent. Sorry about that.

[Hugh Neilson]

First, LMDs were probably not invented in 1965 if I read an earth 616 comic written in 2016, as the "start point" of the MU (generally accepted as the FF space flight) is a moving target, I think about 10 years back from "today". So despite comics where Ben Grimm meets the Beatles and Jimmy Carter, he did not, in present continuity, Ben and Reed no longer served in WW II and Tony Stark was not injured in Viet Nam. LMDs probably moved up several decades as well.

 

Second, why do the movies have to explain the difference? Why isn't the writer/editor group of Marvel 616 charged with explaining how LMDs were developed in their continuity. You are seeing how they developed in MCU one week at a time - they are providing their backstory for LMDs.

[sinanju]

First, LMDs were probably not invented in 1965 if I read an earth 616 comic written in 2016, as the "start point" of the MU (generally accepted as the FF space flight) is a moving target, I think about 10 years back from "today". So despite comics where Ben Grimm meets the Beatles and Jimmy Carter, he did not, in present continuity, Ben and Reed no longer served in WW II and Tony Stark was not injured in Viet Nam. LMDs probably moved up several decades as well.

 

Second, why do the movies have to explain the difference? Why isn't the writer/editor group of Marvel 616 charged with explaining how LMDs were developed in their continuity. You are seeing how they developed in MCU one week at a time - they are providing their backstory for LMDs.

 

This is a job for my (soon-to-be-ex) wife's mantra, "It's ALL fanfic!"

 

The MCU is not 616 is not the Ultimates Universe and so forth. Take what you like and leave the rest. And that includes your own headcanon. It's much more relaxing to watch (or read) the stories when you don't expect any particular iteration to match up with any other. To the extent that they do, and you like that, enjoy it. To the extent that they don't, and you don't like that, ignore it. Accept each one for what it is.

[zslane]

First, LMDs were probably not invented in 1965 if I read an earth 616 comic written in 2016, as the "start point" of the MU (generally accepted as the FF space flight) is a moving target, I think about 10 years back from "today".

I think the "start point" of the 616 MU goes at least as far back as WWII with Captain America, Toro, the Invaders, etc. And so does the MCU. They both have the same starting point; after all, we even have a movie that takes place in that time period. So it's not like the 616 or the MCU sprang up out of nothing in the 1960s or the 2000s. They both have a depicted history that goes back to WWII.

 

Moreover, Howard Stark was showing off some pretty amazing technology (even if only in prototype form) back then, and he supplied some pretty amazing tech to Peggy Carter in the late 40s and early 50s. To say nothing of the tech Hydra developed thanks to their experimentation with the Tesseract. So there is a technological through-line that goes from pre-WWII to the 1960s, just like in 616.

[Pattern Ghost]

True, but we only got Arnim Zola in a primitive computer instead of a robot body during that earlier era. Perhaps microchip technology followed along closer to a real world timeline? That'd slow down  AI development.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think the "start point" of the 616 MU goes at least as far back as WWII with Captain America, Toro, the Invaders, etc. And so does the MCU. They both have the same starting point; after all, we even have a movie that takes place in that time period. So it's not like the 616 or the MCU sprang up out of nothing in the 1960s or the 2000s. They both have a depicted history that goes back to WWII.

I guess before we explain LMDs, we'd better explain how Cap was thawed out at different times in the two timelines. The start point for the Modern Marvel Timeline is the FF rocket flight (which is not even in the MCU). All else is history. WW II was as many years ago as it had to be for Cap to have been thawed out recently enough that Tony Stark, Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne were there as Avengers, and are of their present age in 2016. That was the mid-1960's when Avengers #4 was published. For Tony and Hank to have completed PhDs and been active as Supers for a bit, since they are not now in their 70s, the dates have moved forward.

 

How does it follow that "pretty amazing prototypes" in WW II means LMDs "must have" been in development before 2016? We don't even know their official date of development in 616 continuity - it's never been a plot point (or maybe I missed it?). Maybe Dr. Doom 2099 developed them, used his ancestral time machine to drop the plans on some SHIELD techie's desk in 1956 so he could develop them in 1965, and they all have a back door in their programming for Doom to exploit. The origins of LMDs have never been explored in 616 continuity, have they?

 

If we had LMD tech back in the mid-1960s in 616, how come no one developed repulsor tech until Tony came along (a moving target in time), unstable molecules waited for Reed Richards to come along (that keeps getting further ahead of WW II as well), gamma bombs were left undiscovered until Banner came along and those particles waited unknown until Pym discovered them? How did Dum Dum Dugan live through WW II without Sergeant Nick Fury there to save his life numerous times, like he did in 616? With no FF, why hasn't the MCU been eaten by Galactus? Why, with no FF, there was no rescued Sub-Mariner to fly off the handle and throw Steve's iceberg into warmer waters - he should still be frozen in there.

 

The movies and TV shows take their inspiration from the comics. They are not bound to identical continuity. The comics change their own continuity all the time anyway. There are plenty of divergences of at least equal significance to the timing of LMD development between the comics and the movies.