Presence Attack Abuse

[bluesguy]

 That, and the fact that the target character doesn't get any kind of roll to resist. I've toyed with the idea of rebuilding PRE Attacks as an opposed characteristic roll, with situation modifiers adding/subtracting to the roll, but I've never really gotten serious about it. 

 

Simple mechanism - Ego Roll; -1 per 10 pts over PRE.

[dmjalund]

"I don't have a problem with Presence Attacks!. I can quit whenever I want"

 

 <Makes Presence Attack>

[Christopher]

At a glance, it looks like the potential for abuse starts at the upper end of what's remotely "human"(i.e., 30 to 50 PRE, with or without rep or SA or other bonuses). 

 

True, but its true for most other stats.  I mean, if your character has 7 speed, they become abusively overwhelming.   50 Strength is very powerful even beyond the 10d6 punch. If they have that many points dumped into stun, they become unstoppable.  Its a matter of how many points you put into something giving you more power, really.

Perhaps not only the scores itself, but also how much you are easily able to use.

Using full powered, non-pulled attacks against mooks is generally considered non-heroic.

Same as mind controlling whole droves of enemy mooks to fight for you.

 

But using 50-60 presense agaisnt those mooks? Very heroic as it taks them out without harming them.

The problem is that presense attacks also affect the important characters. Maybe just give the important guys a "important guy" bonus to PRE for the purpose of resisting PRE attacks? The main reason I have not made a concept using this rule is that it would be too effective agaisnt main targets.

[procyon]

My players like to use Pre attacks, but so far I haven't found them to be horribly unbalanced.  I will say that we use 4e so that may have something to do with it, as I do not know how the rules have changed since that point.  (The kids discovered my old books a little over a year ago and wanted to try it.  Still going. )

 

I do tend to adjust the mods on the Pre attacks according to the target though.  If one of the PC's picks up a car and yells at mooks while wading through a hail of bullets unfazed - that gets a healthy bonus to sending the mooks running.

If he tries that on one of the big baddies that can do the same thing - well, that's about like me running out and grabbing a milk jug and waving it around.  Not so much of a bonus, if any.

 

The fact that none of my players have Pre over 25 may affect this though.  We don't have any high Pre 'shock and awe' going on without some appropriate grandstanding.

 

I do like the Ego roll rule though.  That will definitely get filed away for future use should it become an issue.

[Grailknight]

I do tend to adjust the mods on the Pre attacks according to the target though.  If one of the PC's picks up a car and yells at mooks while wading through a hail of bullets unfazed - that gets a healthy bonus to sending the mooks running.

If he tries that on one of the big baddies that can do the same thing - well, that's about like me running out and grabbing a milk jug and waving it around.  Not so much of a bonus, if any.

 

 

 

My rulings on PRE attack modifiers pretty much mirrors this. Agents on both sides are going to hesitant to engage supers because of the power disparity. Supers, who know they can do equivalent things, are just harder to impress.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Just giving the real bad guys more presence makes them much less susceptible to presence attacks - a few with "seen everything" bonuses to presence for defense only goes a long way as well.  As for agents vs supers; that's what those modifiers GMs can hand out are for.  Its worth a die or two bonus for Captain Reputation to do a presence attack against mooks.

[Greywind]

Can always ressurrect PRE Defense as a Power.

[bigdamnhero]

Simple mechanism - Ego Roll; -1 per 10 pts over PRE.

I thought of that, but never playtested it to see how it works in practice. (I have *lots* of experience with house rules that sounded good but turned out to unbalance things or slow play down significantly.) Has anyone ever played with a rule like this? Or a straight opposed roll?

 

Can always ressurrect PRE Defense as a Power.

+__ PRE, Only To Defend Against PRE Attacks. Boom.

 

Few characters in my games have PREs above 25, but it's not uncommon for some of them to have +___ PRE Only To Make (Specific Type of) PRE Attacks, Only When (Doing Something Specific). But again, the difference between 15 and 25 PRE is only 2d6; IMX it's the situational modifiers that make all the difference.

[zslane]

Don't forget that PRE attacks are compared against the higher of PRE or EGO. I mean, there's got to be a reason why someone is resistant to being impressed, awed, terrified, or whatever, and if it isn't because they themselves are impressive, awesome, terrifying, or whatever, then it is because they have some sort of "Iron Will", i.e., extra EGO. The special effect of a power might be allowed to counteract some number of situational PRE Attack bonus dice, but that in itself isn't a new kind of defense, it is just the ad hoc judicial application of special effect (against a bonus that is already under ad hoc judicial governance).

 

Look, PRE Attack isn't a power; it is just an action, like a punch. It is something normal people do all the time. There is nothing intrinsically "super" about it. Even when someone's PRE is at superhuman levels, what they are doing with it isn't the same as activating a power, or even attacking with one. I suppose it is possible for the PRE Attack to become an exploit if players are allowed to use it in situations that more properly call for Mind Control, but that mistake should be easy to avoid (by insisting that players buy and use Mind Control).

[dmjalund]

Don't forget that PRE attacks are compared against the higher of PRE or EGO

i thought that went away in 6e

[Burrito Boy]

I do tend to adjust the mods on the Pre attacks according to the target though. If one of the PC's picks up a car and yells at mooks while wading through a hail of bullets unfazed - that gets a healthy bonus to sending the mooks running.

If he tries that on one of the big baddies that can do the same thing - well, that's about like me running out and grabbing a milk jug and waving it around. Not so much of a bonus, if any.

 

Waving around a milk jug can be pretty intimidating to people like me who are lactose intolerant.

[worldshaking00]

 

 

 hesitant to engage supers because of the power disparity.

 

Perhaps the chart could be slightly reworded. "Exhibiting a Power or superior technology" could be modified to "Exhibiting a Superior Power, Skill, or technology"? For mooks, at least. I mention "skill" because of Martial Arts- style flourishes (Boxing series of shadow-box punches before a bout, a Bruce Lee-style dance, impressive swordplay, etc.) that are of higher training caliber than the targets. Another use for taking PS:<your martial art here> possibly, too.

 

 

 

Waving around a milk jug can be pretty intimidating to people like me who are lactose intolerant.  

 

Amen.   Where's my Lactaid defense!

[Mister E]

I like turning undead w/ PRE.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Perhaps the chart could be slightly reworded. "Exhibiting a Power or superior technology" could be modified to "Exhibiting a Superior Power, Skill, or technology"?

 

That's how I've always used it, interpreting it as "using any thing that would impress the locals".

[Christopher]

My players like to use Pre attacks, but so far I haven't found them to be horribly unbalanced.  I will say that we use 4e so that may have something to do with it, as I do not know how the rules have changed since that point.  (The kids discovered my old books a little over a year ago and wanted to try it.  Still going. )

 

I do tend to adjust the mods on the Pre attacks according to the target though.  If one of the PC's picks up a car and yells at mooks while wading through a hail of bullets unfazed - that gets a healthy bonus to sending the mooks running.

If he tries that on one of the big baddies that can do the same thing - well, that's about like me running out and grabbing a milk jug and waving it around.  Not so much of a bonus, if any.

 

The fact that none of my players have Pre over 25 may affect this though.  We don't have any high Pre 'shock and awe' going on without some appropriate grandstanding.

 

I do like the Ego roll rule though.  That will definitely get filed away for future use should it become an issue.

Aren't Pre-Attacks inherently AoE? If so, how are you handling it when the villain and the mooks are affected?

No bonus (we got a Hulk too!)?

Roll extra dice only vs mooks, as is to be done with damage negation and AoE interacting?

Just not affecting the villain (only the mooks), but with bonus?

 

Waving around a milk jug can be pretty intimidating to people like me who are lactose intolerant.

Plus a jug is a heavy blunt weapon, filled with liquid for higher impact power.

The liquid can be aimed at the eyes in an add-hoc Flash vs Sight.

If it is a glass or procelan jug, shattering it results in a cutting weapon similar to a broken glass bottle.

[massey]

I've never found them to be abusive.  There's an inherent element of GM control over PRE attacks.  We've never had problems with them, in part I think, because we all read the part about how they become less effective over time.  Even if you have a 60 PRE or so, and you're rolling 12D6, that's maybe 20 past on most supervillains?  They'll hesitate, and they may lose an action when you descend from the heavens with light gleaming down around you like you're Sephiroth or something.  But unless you immediately one-shot somebody to prove how tough you are, if you do it again on your next phase, you're going to lose 3 or 4 dice as people realize the guy who is accompanied by the ominous voices chanting in Latin might look scary, but isn't really that tough.

 

Besides, a character who spends a lot of his points on PRE is going to be missing points elsewhere.  You're not very intimidating when you're coughing up blood because you have 15 less defense than every other hero on the team.

[bigdamnhero]

i thought that went away in 6e

Technically yes, the default rule in 6ed is that PRE Attacks work against PRE. But both 6e2 and CC include the GM may allow other stats to be used when appropriate, and the first example given is EGO if you're trying to compel someone to do something against their will.

[Ndreare]

I don't know if it's a bit legal by the book but I've allowed players to use resistant defense against presence attacks and even strength against presents attacks. My reasoning was that the villains were destroying cars or other gianobjects in his environments that the players would've been resistant to.

 

That was in our fifth edition days when we are playing nightspawn conversions. In the nightspawn setting horror and presents attacks are routine.