Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Do you have any direct evidence that this is a widespread problem? No anecdotes, because I can toss out press clippings of elderly and infirm people running off or shooting attackers all day. Where's the evidence that vulnerable people are having their guns stolen on a widespread basis enough to impinge on their rights?

Widespread gun theft is a popular misconception. In reality stolen guns are used in less than 20% of crimes. Over 75% of guns used in mass shootings are legally obtained. 
 

The uncomfortable conclusion is that legal gun owners are the problem. I’m sure very few of them acquire their guns intending for them to be stolen or used to commit murder or suicide. But in exercising their fearful “right” to arm themselves they are in reality endangering themselves along with the rest of us. 
 

 

[Lord Liaden]

16 hours ago, pinecone said:

Quick qeustion, what is your expertese in knife fighting from? Military training? Living in bad parts of town? Please give examples to support your strong claims about "how knives work".

Lastly playing word games of is it a mass slaying, or a spree killing is honestly unworthy of you. Do you wish to find truth, or blow smoke?

Lastly you dodge the question posed, how will the weak, and disabled be protected?

 

Okay, I don't want to escalate this debate, so I'll simply answer your questions, then I'm done.

 

Personally, I've never used a knife for anything more violent than carving a turkey. I do have some police friends, including an officer in a tactical unit. Among the things he told me, "A knife's a bad as a gun. It never jams, never runs out of ammo, and you don't need training to use it."

 

With respect, if you only look at numbers of casualties, without looking at the context of times, locations, and conditions, that's blowing smoke.

 

You protect the weak and disabled by building a society with enough respect for law and rights, and sufficient control of the means of violence, that incidents like the one we're talking about are very rare. I live in one.

 

(BTW just FYI, while per capita gun violence in Canada is a small fraction of that in the United States, police statistics say that most of the illegal hand guns used for crimes in Canada are smuggled in from the US. So, thanks for that.)

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Gun possession in itself feels like it creates an escalation mindset, not a de-escalation one.

 

A few points to ponder:

 

1. Nobody* knows how to de-escalate. They aren't going to magically learn under the pressure of an assault, because they're unarmed.

2. Not every situation can be de-escalated.

3. Every time gun restrictions are loosened, someone makes an argument that it will lead to a massive uptake in violence, and that's not proven to be the case.

4. Advanced marksmanship isn't required for the tool to be effective. If someone is coming at you, they are making themselves a better target. If they are moving away from you (vast majority of people who have a gun pointed at them mid-crime), they are becoming less of a threat.

 

*Mostly nobody. I'm commenting here on my observations of how bad people are in general at it, and uninformed. Just being a little hyperbolic for the sake of brevity.

 

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

The uncomfortable conclusion is that legal gun owners are the problem.

 

Only if you don't consider the vast majority of legal gun owners who aren't the problem, and fail to recall how many of these shooters were sold guns when the existing system should have prevented it, thus they weren't all "legally purchased" despite what the news may say (often in the same story.) But that doesn't negate your larger point that we shouldn't take the idea of restricting the firearms completely off the table.

 

IMO, it's a matter of both making what we already have in place (early warnings/profiling,  information systems for better background checks, police actually following current doctrine in confronting the shooter ASAP, schools not going into lockdown with "shelter in place" as their only instruction to faculty and students and skipping the "Run" part of "Run, Hide, Fight", etc.) work better, and looking at evidence-based measures regarding any firearms restrictions, rather than this "common sense" nonsense. The majority of politicians and general public do not have a good enough understanding of the issues to claim to have common sense about them. Instead, we get knee jerk reactions passed that don't really  accomplish much.

 

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

But in exercising their fearful “right” to arm themselves they are in reality endangering themselves along with the rest of us. 

 

I'd say there's a matter of degree that you aren't considering. Remember the line, "my right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose"? Or whatever variant? IMO, there's a middle ground that would possibly reduce casualties in a mass shooting event and not overly impinge on anyone's rights. Do with long guns (rifles, shotguns, carbines) what the English do with knives. Take it out of your home (swinging your fist, limited chance of negatively impacting the public) only with good reason (where you put the public at much greater risk, should you happen to be bent on killing, stupid, or accident prone). Police are then empowered to stop anyone with a long arm and assess them. Taking away all public carry, especially handguns, has been squelched by the Heller ruling, and they tend to be much less lethal. It's not as perfect a solution as simply banning everything, but you're going to need a massive cultural shift before that happens in this country, and we're not going to see that in our lifetimes.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

You protect the weak and disabled by building a society with enough respect for law and rights, and sufficient control of the means of violence, that incidents like the one we're talking about are very rare. I live in one.

 

I think that low population density and less economic disadvantage also play into it. Also, not having a rebellion against your king, a civil war, and a war of conquest across your Western frontier in your cultural heritage probably also helps.

 

I'm not sure there's an easy way to scale up the advantages that Canada enjoys over the US in these areas. It will take a significant number of generations to deal with the bloody cultural inheritance.

 

Look at it this way:

 

1865: Slavery ends.

1968 (+103 years):I'm born, Civil Rights movement really kicks off.

2022: (+157 years): I turn 54, and our country is already backsliding.

 

We're only a few generations out from the end of slavery in this country. Which is pretty damned disturbing when you do the math. My great grand parents were around during the slave era in this country. It may be too soon to expect us to start getting civilized. I do see hope in that the latest two "named" generations seem to be significantly less racist and prejudiced overall.

[TrickstaPriest]

I can't really weigh in on the gun debate, other than that other countries do indeed function better in that regard.

 

I do know that any solution has to take into account the current context of guns and violence (and poverty) in our society, and how things are looking in the near future.

[Cygnia]

The last update I read was that one suspect was found dead and the other is still at large

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/09/06/world/canada-stabbing-attacks

[Tom]

4 hours ago, Starlord said:

 

Perhaps someone who lives outside of the US could better answer this....  They may provide a better perspective on how society protects itself every day without guns and without living in the only country in the solar system where one needs to fear gun violence on a constant, everyday basis.

I suppose if the guns are in the hand of recognized military and “resistance” groups, they don’t count?

 

As violent as the US is, and I live in a supposedly violent part of the country (too darn close to Detroit, I guess), I’m not particularly concerned with gun violence…

 

As opposed to say, someone in Ukraine, or any one of the multiple countries where people are literally running around with fully automatic weapons and anti-tank rocket launchers killing each other.

 

As gun crazy as ‘Murica might be, we are not the most brutally violent place on the planet.

 

And I’ve seen more police in Europe toting submachine guns as regular carry than I’ve seen in the US.

[Pariah]

The only thing I can really contribute to this conversation is this: At my school, we teachers are encouraged to participate in active shooter training, but discouraged from participating in conversations based on race, gender, or anything else that might be called 'political'.

 

That's no way to run a school, never mind an entire nation.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I think that low population density and less economic disadvantage also play into it. Also, not having a rebellion against your king, a civil war, and a war of conquest across your Western frontier in your cultural heritage probably also helps.

 

 

To that first point, population density isn't really a difference, considering that 80% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the American border. I live in the shadow of the fourth most populous city in North America, the core of an urbanized area of over six million. But, while we most definitely have a serious problem with poverty, homelessness, etc. it's true that our social safety net is in some ways more robust than yours.

 

OTOH I agree that the American mythology of rebellion, individualism, and violent conflict resolution, is probably a significant factor in the mindset of many Americans. But the historical record illustrates that wasn't always the case, and that said mythology has been promulgated by parties with a vested interest in promoting it, and the savvy to popularize it. I've always said Americans as a society are the greatest salesmen the world has ever seen. You can sell almost anything to almost anyone, even each other.

[DShomshak]

Just popped up on my Edge frontpage: Arizona judge invokes 14th Amendment to remove a public official who participated in Jan. 6:

 

Judge Unseats Official Who Trespassed at Capitol on Jan. 6 (msn.com)

 

It's a very brief story, and I'm not sure I entirely trust msn.com reporting, but it claims this is the first time the 14th has been used this way in about 100 years.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

You protect the weak and disabled by building a society with enough respect for law and rights, and sufficient control of the means of violence, that incidents like the one we're talking about are very rare. I live in one.

 

As an aging wimp, I am not able to deal with an attacker by manly strength and hand weapons. As a person with very bad eyesight, I would never be able to defend myself with a gun, either. I suppose I could carry Mace, though I don't. On a personal scale, I stay out of areas where violence is most likely to occut. (30 years ago, I felt perfectly safe waiting around downtown Seattle after midnight to catch the last bus. From what I read in the news... nope, not doing that again.) In the long term and larger scale, LL has described the only means possible to protect people like me.

 

As he says, Canada has managed this a lot better than the US. I'd move there if it weren't for family obligations, and that all my gaming group is here.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

But the historical record illustrates that wasn't always the case, and that said mythology has been promulgated by parties with a vested interest in promoting it, and the savvy to popularize it.

 

Read Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee then get back to me on that one. I have ancestors who walked the Trail of Tears. Our violent expansion was quite violent. And frankly disgusting.

[unclevlad]

14 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

Just popped up on my Edge frontpage: Arizona judge invokes 14th Amendment to remove a public official who participated in Jan. 6:

 

Judge Unseats Official Who Trespassed at Capitol on Jan. 6 (msn.com)

 

It's a very brief story, and I'm not sure I entirely trust msn.com reporting, but it claims this is the first time the 14th has been used this way in about 100 years.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Figure that the last events to qualify as an insurrection would've been during the Civil War, so it wouldn't come into play.

 

The key takeaway is in calling it an insurrection, and the article points out that several different judges now have said yes, it was.  The guy was convicted, the event has been characterized...boom.  This will likely go up the judicial chain before anything is really settled, tho.

[unclevlad]

2 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Read Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee then get back to me on that one. I have ancestors who walked the Trail of Tears. Our violent expansion was quite violent. And frankly disgusting.

 

Yes, it was.  IIRC, the Seminoles in Florida have a too-similar tale.  But putting down the Indian tribes was considered laudatory, and it's part of the folklore of the West.  Arguably THE most prominent character type in American movies is the gunslinger.  Billy the Kid is lionized to a fairly large degree, despite the fact that he was nothing more than an out of control punk with a fast finger.  The Chicago gangsters were romanticized for quite some time.  Bonnie and Clyde.  It's this broader history LL is referring to.

[DShomshak]

If we're talking about the broader contours of American culture, and how they become pathological, I once again refer to this episode of Freakonomics Radio describing a social research program that attempts to objectively measure aspects of culture, and how the US measures up. And it finds that in some important ways, we Americans are freaks compared to the rest of the world.

 

The Pros and Cons of America’s (Extreme) Individualism (Replay) - Freakonomics

 

Dean Shomshak

[Pariah]

“It’s weird that a person who barely reads would even want documents. It’s like finding out your dog collects stamps.” 

~ Jimmy Kimmel on the Donald Trump / Mar-A-Lago situation 

[Cygnia]

To the surprise of no one...

 

Leaked Oath Keepers Member List Includes Cops, Soldiers, and Elected Officials

[Pattern Ghost]

Well, the "oath" in "Oathkeeper" stands for the oath of enlistment to defend the country from all enemies foreign and domestic (with the emphasis on domestic), so . . . great investigative reporting?

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Well, the "oath" in "Oathkeeper" stands for the oath of enlistment to defend the country from all enemies foreign and domestic (with the emphasis on domestic), so . . . great investigative reporting?

We’re all aware that the Oath Keepers are ironically named, thanks. 

[Pattern Ghost]

10 minutes ago, Old Man said:

We’re all aware that the Oath Keepers are ironically named, thanks. 

 

You're welcome.

[Lord Liaden]

16 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Read Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee then get back to me on that one. I have ancestors who walked the Trail of Tears. Our violent expansion was quite violent. And frankly disgusting.

 

I don't question that at all. What I was referring to was the mythology of the legions of American revolutionary patriots with a stack of guns at the ready, eager to support the independence of their nascent country, driving out the British all on their own; or the rugged cowboy taming the West, dispensing rough frontier justice by virtue of his lightning-fast six-shooter; or the Hollywood vigilante taking the law into his own hands to take out the "bad guys," however those bad guys are defined. The kind of image the Second Amendment fanatics like to extol and try to pattern themselves after, not realizing that a lot of that was just marketing.

[Pariah]

NIMBY much?

 

Town After Town, Residents Are Fighting Affordable Housing in Connecticut

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Pariah said:

NIMBY much?

 

Town After Town, Residents Are Fighting Affordable Housing in Connecticut

 

My past reading about Connecticut suggests it's rather infamous for its proportion of Yuppies.

[Pattern Ghost]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I don't question that at all. What I was referring to was the mythology of the legions of American revolutionary patriots with a stack of guns at the ready, eager to support the independence of their nascent country, driving out the British all on their own; or the rugged cowboy taming the West, dispensing rough frontier justice by virtue of his lightning-fast six-shooter; or the Hollywood vigilante taking the law into his own hands to take out the "bad guys," however those bad guys are defined. The kind of image the Second Amendment fanatics like to extol and try to pattern themselves after, not realizing that a lot of that was just marketing.

 

Yeah, people tend to forget their heroes were often actually quite the opposite.

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, Cygnia said:

To the surprise of no one...

 

Leaked Oath Keepers Member List Includes Cops, Soldiers, and Elected Officials

 

Note that it's 370 cops, 100 active duty military, and 80 politicians, out of a national Oath Keeper roster of 38,000.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Note that it's 370 cops, 100 active duty military, and 80 politicians, out of a national Oath Keeper roster of 38,000.

 

And to take that further, out of how many cops and military?  

 

And on the politicians, they don't mention the level, or the nature.  City council?  County school board?  The count also includes candidates, not simply elected.  So how large is the pool of people here?  

 

Not saying it's good that there are any...but there will always be some.  So, the phrasing is misleading, but hey, it's the Daily Beast.  The original AP story discusses the fact that just being on the list means little...how many times have you signed up for something you later went, oh, this was a mistake....  To be sure, some people saying that are doing CYA, so denial skepticism is justified.