I need help with a power...

[WatchDogMan]

My group is making superheros with 300 points.  So here's the idea.  My characters regular ID is a physically weak bookworm.  However, when he falls asleep, his super-powered dream self flies free of his body and goes around punishing evil.  Here's a first draft of the power.  Any constructive feedback or ideas would be welcome.

 

Dream Form:  Duplication (creates 300-point form), Easy Recombination (Zero-Phase Action at Full DCV), Ranged Recombination (+1/2), Altered Duplicates (100%; +1), MegaScale (1m = 1,000 km; +1 3/4*) (297 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -1 1/2)

Real Cost = 119

 

Basically the character would go into a 0 DCV sleep-like trance, and the duplicate pops out.  The moment the character "wakes up" his duplicate would instantly recombine, wherever he was and whatever he was doing.

[Beast]

looks ok to me
but then I'm not the GM

[Amorkca]

You could potentially build this with "No Conscious Control" as a limitation... Makes the points worth more...

[Hugh Neilson]

I think the mechanics are fine. However, it seems like the real PC is the Dreamself, so having him be a duplicate (or a summoned being, or whatever) may "feel" wrong. Do you expect your character to suddenly disappear in the middle of a scenario because his secret ID wakes from a dream, or his alarm clock goes off?

[Netzilla]

Mechanically the build seems okay.  As a GM, I'd be a little reluctant because of how weak his regular ID is.  Basically, it sounds like he'd be completely helpless if kept awake and it seems like his team mates are going to have to knock him unconscious every time they go on a mission.

[BoloOfEarth]

Mechanically the build seems okay.  As a GM, I'd be a little reluctant because of how weak his regular ID is.  Basically, it sounds like he'd be completely helpless if kept awake and it seems like his team mates are going to have to knock him unconscious every time they go on a mission.

 

In my first Champions campaign, one of the PCs could only turn into his hero form if he witnessed a crime.  So whenever we needed him, we'd have to knock on his door and flash him, or break one of his windows, or similar misdeeds.  Amazing how quickly he bought off that disad.

[Tasha]

I think you are being too literal with the rules for the ability you are thinking of.

I would just take the base character. Put the additional stats and powers into one list with the Only in Alternate ID limitation. Keep the build simple.

[Old Man]

Or you could buy the bookworm dude as a massive DNPC for the dreamself.

[BoloOfEarth]

Except for one thing.  Conceptually, and as written up, the character has a massive "get out of jail free" card.  If someone captures him, all he has to do is wait for his "normal" form to wake up, and he's home safe and sound.

 

Depending on the GM, that might not sit well.  However, one could also say that's balanced by the fact that, if someone locks the "normal" guy away, his dream self will end up in the same predicament. 

 

Given that he doesn't get the full benefits of Duplication (having a second character running around doing things - one is always asleep or tucked away in his own subconscious), the net effect is as others have pointed out -- the 300 point dream self is the real character, and his bookworm self is just a secret ID or DNPC.

 

I'd say the Duplication does complicate it somewhat, but it covers things like one or the other form getting into a sticky situation, causing plot complications for the character as a whole.

 

The GM and player would need to set a reasonable point limit on the normal form.  If you're thinking of having a 300-point "super-skilled" form and a 300-point "super-powered" form, to me that stops it from being an interesting build and turns it into a potentially abusive build.

 

As a GM, I'd allow the Duplication build, with the understanding up front that (1) with some exceptions, skills aren't appreciably different between forms, and (2) infrequent plot complications will come up (moreso if throwing the No Conscious Control onto the Duplication power).

[Christopher]

My group is making superheros with 300 points.  So here's the idea.  My characters regular ID is a physically weak bookworm.  However, when he falls asleep, his super-powered dream self flies free of his body and goes around punishing evil.  Here's a first draft of the power.  Any constructive feedback or ideas would be welcome.

It think you got it backwards. This is a game with 300 point superheroes. The Dream Self is the actuall character, not the bookworm.

 

One of the core rules is:

Always model the game effects of a power first.

Model the Special Effect last and do not let it force anything about the Build (inlcuding limitations and Complications).

 

What you could model is a Hero with a Physical Limitation "vanishes at the worst possible times". Wich could be near unplayably bad or a freeby, depending on the GM.

I would personally go the DNCP route. "I used to only be able to manifest when he slept. But now my powers have evolved beyond that limitation."

[bigdamnhero]

Here is Hyper-Man's take on Captain Marvel/Shazam. Same basic idea except only when Billy is asleep. I like the idea of just building the 300-point Super but giving all his superpowers OIAID. Then you just take a Physical Limitation to reflect that he doesn't have control over when he changes identities.

 

That said, as a GM I'd be a little leery if one of my players came to me with this concept - it's one of those things that work well in comics but not so much in RPGs:

1. What's going to happen when crime (ie plot) happens during the 16 hours of the day when the bookworm isn't asleep? Since the SID bookworm is completely useless, you can't even expect him to help punch an Agent or two. If the answer is "I basically plan to be in Hero ID the whole time in game" then that's not an Alternate ID and you shouldn't get a discount for AIAID.
2. How much control does the character, or you as a player, expect to have over when you fall asleep or wake up? Full control = not much of a Limitation. No control = recipe for frustration.
3. What happens when Hero Man falls asleep or is KOd? Assuming the bookworm can't just immediately go back to sleep, that means even -1 STUN puts you out of the combat. Are you sure you want to sign up for that?

It's a neat superhero concept, but as a PC it sounds like it could be frustrating for both player and GM. YMMV of course.

[Old Man]

*cough*inducedcoma*cough*

[Christopher]

*cough*inducedcoma*cough*

We do not know if a induced coma would count as "sleep" for this power. It might actually be the one way to incarcerate this guy (aside from keeping the bookworm awake).

Plus forcing the bookworm into a induced coma would be kinda a form of illegal restraint.

[Lucius]

We do not know if a induced coma would count as "sleep" for this power. It might actually be the one way to incarcerate this guy (aside from keeping the bookworm awake).

Plus forcing the bookworm into a induced coma would be kinda a form of illegal restraint.

"Nulla injuria est, quae in volentem fiat."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary identifies that as from Justinian's Corpus Juris Civilis

[WatchDogMan]

I'm a little puzzled by the split between people who think it's abusively over-powered, and the people who think it's too limited to be playable.  But, the general consensus seems to be that while the idea is cute for a comic book character, it doesn't work as a PC.

 

A lot of good points were brought up, and you've all given me some very chewy food for thought.  Back to the drawing-board I go.  Thanks everyone!

[Hyper-Man]

The argument against using some form of OIAID for a PC is really not much different than the argument against a powerset that shuts down near radiactive cheerios.  It's all a matter of how often the GM wants to spend gametime on those types of limitations. It's also a solo book vs. team book thing in the comics as well as the movies.  Far more story time was devoted to Tony Stark's difficulty in getting into the armor in his solo appearances (including Captain America: Civil War) than in the actual Avengers movies.

 

HM

[bigdamnhero]

I'm a little puzzled by the split between people who think it's abusively over-powered, and the people who think it's too limited to be playable.

I think the way I'd phrase it is: the only way to stop it from being mechanically abusive would be to limit it narratively past the point of annoyance.

 

Also keep in mind there's nothing wrong with having Complications/Limitations/et. al. that never come up in game. You just shouldn't get points for them. But if you're getting points for something like OIAID, Focus, and such, you are making an agreement with the GM that at some point, they're going to take it away from you. As long as you're both cool with that and have some ideas for what your character is going to do without their powers, it's not a problem.

 

The argument against using some form of OIAID for a PC is really not much different than the argument against a powerset that shuts down near radiactive cheerios.  It's all a matter of how often the GM wants to spend gametime on those types of limitations. It's also a solo book vs. team book thing in the comics as well as the movies.  Far more story time was devoted to Tony Stark's difficulty in getting into the armor in his solo appearances (including Captain America: Civil War) than in the actual Avengers movies.

It's also worth noting that Stark has *some* skills even without the armor. Years ago, someone on these boards - wish I could remember who - suggested a helpful rule of thumb that if your character can't at least expect to take on agent-level characters without the armor, you probably need to rethink your character concept.

[Hyper-Man]

I often refer back to the DCAU (Batman:TAS through Justice League Unlimited) when thinking about character growth.

 

With that in mind, a few years ago I built a version of Superman without the Kryptonite/Red Solar Limitation as a cost analysis experiment (I still kept the Unified Power Limitation on the VPP). The total cost of the character jumped from 400 to 467.  That 67 points could be thought of as the long term cost to buy off game-time occurances of those Limitations.  The same option could apply to characters like Captain Marvel/SHAZAM! and Iron Man.  A GM could certainly require a PC with a similar up front power boost to buy off those Limitations before actually increasing the character's power level.  Think of it as a loan that the PC needs to make minimum XP payments against on a regular basis.  Superman DID start out more powerful than anyone else, he took a rookie-loan that he was able to mostly pay off during his solo-career before joining the Justice League.  His cousin Kara didn't take as much of a loan to start with so actually had points for non-Kryptonian fighting skills when she traveled to Skartaris with GL and Star Girl and the huge BOULDER sized chunk of Kryptonite that existed there.

 

HM

[Cassandra]

Might want to use Desolid with Leave Body Behind, and give the character EGO Attack, and Flight to that only work while Desolid.  Invisibility might also been good.

[Tech]

One of the biggest considerations I have when creating a concept is: what will I be buying after I get 50 experience pts, 100, 200, 300, etc.  If a concept is so easy to buy powers that you run out of things to buy after 100 xp, then the concept has a big flaw in my opinion. This idea looked like one of those.

[Hyper-Man]

One of the biggest considerations I have when creating a concept is: what will I be buying after I get 50 experience pts, 100, 200, 300, etc.  If a concept is so easy to buy powers that you run out of things to buy after 100 xp, then the concept has a big flaw in my opinion. This idea looked like one of those.

 

The first Champions game I ever played in was from the 1e/2e days and several PC's gained over 150 XP.  A lot of that was wasted on the typical arms race of DEX, SPD, Attack power and Defenses but some characters had some significant growth.  I consider any 100 XP awarded HERO game to be a wildly successful one these days. 

 

Going back to my DCAU example - XP and buying off the Limited Power Rookie Loan was the difference maker in the fight between Superman and Captain Marvel that occurred in Justice League Unlimited.  Cap was clearly a rookie and Superman was arguably the #1 or #2 most experienced superhero on the planet (the other being Batman).  Clark spent a huge chunk of his XP paying down his Rookie Loan and then used what was left over on learning better fighting skills (justified by his many battles against against other bricks including Darkseid) and making his powers easier to use (removing concentration on stuff outside the VPP, increasing REC.  The last thing would be to eventually increase the POOL of the VPP without increasing the maximum Active Points of any single slot.  All of that could easily take 150 XP. A similar path of advancement could easily be applied to Captain Marvel (or a character like him) as well.

 

HM