Cost of HA

[Christopher R Taylor]

I built characters with HA and variable advantage, it was a really powerful effect.  Enough dice to make it work well and lots of variety, very simple build.  With a 1/2 variable advantage I still had 8d6 to play with.

[rravenwood]

I'm not really sure why HA gets a 1/4 limitation at all.

 

Seems to me that you have one attack "Blast" that does normal damage and it either does this at range or it does it in melee but strength adds to it, just like killing attacks.

 

As for comparing it to stats, stats and powers do not compare well, so they probably ought not be considered in any math comparison.  Stats are very efficient for the points, in order to allow people to build their concept.

 

The more I think about this, the more I like this approach.  Make the Power "Normal Attack" with two versions, just like KAs: Ranged Normal Attack and HTH Normal Attack, with STR being able to add to the HTH version.  Both versions still cost 5 points per die.  Maybe even mention that a RNA is also commonly called a "Blast"   This allows HNAs to work even if no STR is added to it (and if a particular power conception calls for a no-range Normal Attack to which STR can't be added, then that's an RNA bought with No Range), cleanly maintains the 5 AP per Damage Class paradigm, and doesn't complicate things with a mandatory Limitation.

 

As to the statement about characteristics being very cost-efficient, I think that at least STR is probably too cheap given all that it can do, and should be 2 pts. per +1 STR (even in 6th edition with the removal of figured characteristics).

 

I'm not proposing that anyone be forced to play with these rules, but they're house rules that I'd most probably use if I were to start running a game.

 

*******

 

On a different tangent, is it explicitly mentioned anywhere in the rules that Blast can't be added to STR damage?  I understand that the principle is at least strongly implied by the existence of the HA Power, but given that both STR and Blast are Normal Damage attacks, I wonder where the distinction was first made.  I recall back in the pre-4th edition days that Energy Blasts vs. PD - usually with the No Range Limitation - were used to add to STR damage for certain conceptions, being listed as additional dice (e.g. "+4d6"), which implied that the EB damage couldn't be used alone.  One concrete example I can offer would be the villain Vibron in the revised version of Enemies (1982 vintage, revised to be in compliance with 2nd edition Champions); he's listed with "+6D6 HTH Damage (adds to STR Damage) at 1/4 END" which costs 45 points (5 pts x 6D6 = 30 x 1.5 for Reduced END = 45).  I notice that the build doesn't include "No Range" as a Limitation, but it clearly only functions as a HTH add-on.

[Duke Bushido]

I'm not sure I see that. Saying "the default is X" isn't the same as saying "X is the only way it can work." And as pointed out, that wasn't new with 5ed. (Even 3ed Brawling worked the same way, tho that was far more narrowly defined.)

Correct again, as usual. It's quite likely that I'm confusing the two.

 

 

 

Duke

[bigdamnhero]

What happened, at least to me and several GMs is that players would place in multipowers hand attack to exploit the lower cost.  Not the active cost.

 

For example, I was running a champions game in Dundracon and one player kept wanting to make everything through Hand Attack.  Why?  Because using the lower active point he could get more damage and effect while stating that he was within the active point limits. 

 

This character denoted 60 active is a 12d5 EB or 20d6 HA.  After I noted the DC limitation, he then tried 10d6 HA AP AoE Cone.  This is one of the things which has forever soured me on allowing players VPPs.

Yeah, that's why DC caps are at least as important as AP caps. And I love VPPs, but in the wrong hands they can really be a license to munchkin, so I'm very careful about approving them if I don't know the player well enough to trust him.

[Grailknight]

The more I think about this, the more I like this approach.  Make the Power "Normal Attack" with two versions, just like KAs: Ranged Normal Attack and HTH Normal Attack, with STR being able to add to the HTH version.  Both versions still cost 5 points per die.  Maybe even mention that a RNA is also commonly called a "Blast"   This allows HNAs to work even if no STR is added to it (and if a particular power conception calls for a no-range Normal Attack to which STR can't be added, then that's an RNA bought with No Range), cleanly maintains the 5 AP per Damage Class paradigm, and doesn't complicate things with a mandatory Limitation.

 

As to the statement about characteristics being very cost-efficient, I think that at least STR is probably too cheap given all that it can do, and should be 2 pts. per +1 STR (even in 6th edition with the removal of figured characteristics).

 

I'm not proposing that anyone be forced to play with these rules, but they're house rules that I'd most probably use if I were to start running a game.

 

This is exactly what the current rules say with minor changes. Blast is Ranged Normal Attack and HA is HTH Normal Attack(with that mandatory Limitation)

 

I do agree that STR is under-priced but removing figured characteristics and Leaping fixes the worst of this. I can live with the rest because the alternatives are adding build complexity without much increased function or revamping the entire cost of a DC element of the game.

[massey]

Strength is currently way overpriced as long as you're purchasing any other attack power.  The only time Str becomes efficient is if you're playing a very simple brick.

 

Say I'm in a 12D6 game.  I want my guy to have a 30 Str, because he's got a mildly superhuman physique, but my real power comes from my Energy Blast.  I'm getting very little value from that characteristic because I can only punch for 6D6.  Most enemies that have any hope of facing me (not normals) are going to have at least 20 PD.  On average I'm going to do no damage to my opponents.  It's better to take that 20 points I spent on Str, turn my Blast into a Multipower, and then buy some more slots.

 

60 points -- 12D6 Blast

20 points -- increase Str to 30

 

vs

 

60 points -- 60 point Multipower

6 points -- fixed slot 12D6 Blast

2 points -- fixed slot 30 Str

 

and then I've got 12 points for more slots.

[Hyper-Man]

There are some passive benefits to having a high STR that cannot be simulated easily via a Framework slot.

 

Example - resisting being Grabbed during a segment that the character has no Phase or has already used their Phase's actions.

 

HM

[Doc Democracy]

Would be simple to rule that casual STR could be simulated with HA, half HA dice could be used as a free breakout...

 

:-)

[rravenwood]

This is exactly what the current rules say with minor changes. Blast is Ranged Normal Attack and HA is HTH Normal Attack(with that mandatory Limitation)

 

I do agree that STR is under-priced but removing figured characteristics and Leaping fixes the worst of this. I can live with the rest because the alternatives are adding build complexity without much increased function or revamping the entire cost of a DC element of the game.

 

There is a small difference, in that the RAW present HA as a limited form of STR which can only be used in conjunction with a character's regular STR (at least 1/2d6 of STR damage), where the idea that Christopher Taylor presented was to make HA a Normal Damage equivalent to HKA in that STR can be used to add to the HA.  In other words, by RAW, HA adds to STR damage, but in this proposed alternative, STR adds to HA.

 

I also like how it works from a costing perspective, where 1d6 of Normal Damage (whether Blast or HA) would simply cost a straight 5 points without a mandatory Limitation on the HTH version only.  It would mirror the parity between RKA & HKA: both just cost 15 pts. per die.  I think it's cleaner.

 

On STR, the 6e decoupling certainly greatly improved the situation, but I'm still left thinking that the remaining abilities to do damage, lift, throw, make STR rolls, resist Grabs, and other things not coming to mind, have the potential to make quite an impact on how effective a character can be (although obviously the specific types of adventures featured in a particular campaign may render some of these benefits to be of lesser worth).

 

Of course, this is all just IMHO, and I'm not going to stress out if no one else agrees with me.

[dsatow]

On the overall effect of whether STR costs enough, I've never found it a problem in games.  Neither have I found HA too pricy.

 

Why?  Because a person buying hand attack has a concept in mind and doesn't want to make his characters super strong.  Its one of the few times players will do the less cost effective thing for pure concept.  Is it cheaper and more versatile to create a staff as +15 extra strength?  Yes, but I don't think Robin the Boy Wonder should be able to tip over a car with a flick of his staff.  

 

Is strength under priced?  I don't know about that.  The uses for STR is more obvious and proactive from a players perspective, but the other stats are just as important.  CON prevents stunning.  I think players don't buy enough PRE and usually have problems in social situations when its too low.  Most non-combat skills key off INT.  EGO is very necessary against mental powers and certain optional rules like shock and torture.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I suggested damage be decoupled from strength the stat in the 6th edition discussions a couple years ago, along with losing jumping distance.  It was debated, some said "you always hit harder when you're stronger!" and others said "it would make strength more balanced and builds which do more damage with strength can buy it," but in the end Steve just dumped leaping and kept damage.

[Christopher]

Correct under RAW, tho I'm a little skeptical about that one. Depends on sfx of course: I see a lot of HA's defined as "weighted gloves" and so forth, and I wouldn't normally say that helps you muscle your way out of most Grabs/Entangles.

It is not the STR that allows you to break an entangle. It is the Body damage your STR does to it, that allows you to break out. If you need some justification for certain HA SFX working against certain Entangles, here are some:

The Entangle is a form mitting energy field. The HA is defined as...

....Claws. having your claws poke at one section means the forcefield is stronger taxed at that point, removing power from the other parts (whe you break it with raw STR). Easiest way to simulate? Let it add.

...Energy constructs: You create a form fiting construct under the entangle. The you let it push outward.

...martial arts training. Grabs are not that unusual, and the muscles/techniques used to break out of grabs are similar to breaking most entangles.

...weighted gloves: See Martial Arts, The Gloves basically focus you on a Boxing Based Martial Arts, whetere you build it as Martial Arts (rules construct) or not.

 

Unless the Entangle is specifically build to circumvent weapons (i.e. affected by EGO), asume every HA and HKA build works.

Don't sweat the SFX to SFX interactions. Those usually just slow things down. Rule is that every HA/HKA works to break a Entangle. Specific SFX vs specific SFX is an exception. Exception always make stuff harder to adjudicate.

[massey]

There are some passive benefits to having a high STR that cannot be simulated easily via a Framework slot.

 

Example - resisting being Grabbed during a segment that the character has no Phase or has already used their Phase's actions.

 

HM

 

Yeah, but as has already been addressed in other threads, grab is a pretty good maneuver.  You only get casual Str to resist it anyway, until your action.  That might be pretty high for a pure brick, but for somebody whose main attack is not strength, it is an incredibly limited situation.  Again, my example guy with a 30 Str only gets to resist with a 15.

 

What limitation value would you give someone who wanted to buy Str, "only vs grabs, only at casual str, only when it's not my/already used my phase"?  I'd say that's at least worth a -2.

 

The problem with balancing Hero attacks is that until it passes "average defenses", it's worth very little.  Once it passes average defense, every D6 becomes a lot more awesome.

[bigdamnhero]

I think players don't buy enough PRE and usually have problems in social situations when its too low.

OT, but I once played with a guy who never bought up his PRE because "it has no real in-game function." So for our next game (heroic SF) I built a character entirely around high PRE and Interaction Skills. The effect was similar to dropping a Telepath into a mystery game - it completely broke the campaign and we wound up having to retire him after 3 or 4 sessions. But it made my point.

 

It is not the STR that allows you to break an entangle. It is the Body damage your STR does to it, that allows you to break out. .

Fair point. A lot depends on exactly how something is built; a standard HA adds to Grabs or escapes from Grabs, so makes sense it should also work against Entangles. If it's built as just adding to punches, then not so much. My usual approach is to toss stuff like this to the player: "Okay, explain how your brass knuckles help you break out of this webbing?" If the player can come up with something vaguely plausible and genre-appropriate, fine. If not, then sorry but nope.

 

Don't sweat the SFX to SFX interactions. Those usually just slow things down. Rule is that every HA/HKA works to break a Entangle. Specific SFX vs specific SFX is an exception. Exception always make stuff harder to adjudicate.

I think a certain amount of sfx interactions can make the game feel more 3D. Tho I'll grant you a little goes a long way, and you need to make sure you're not creating equity issues. I mean I enjoyed the sfx-vs-sfx comparisons in Ultimate Energy Projector in theory, but I can't imagine actually using them at the table.

[bigdamnhero]

The problem with balancing Hero attacks is that until it passes "average defenses", it's worth very little.  Once it passes average defense, every D6 becomes a lot more awesome.

Well put.

[Doc Democracy]

My usual approach is to toss stuff like this to the player: "Okay, explain how your brass knuckles help you break out of this webbing?" If the player can come up with something vaguely plausible and genre-appropriate, fine. If not, then sorry but nope.

I would hope that the player then asks you whether he might apply a limitation to his HA that makes this explicit on his character sheet.

 

I agree, brass knuckles probably should not make it easier but that should be reflected in the build and the cost of the attack.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, special effect goes some ways toward that but yeah; if you cannot use your HTA to help break out of an entangle, for instance, its probably worth a 1/4 limitation.  It makes sense; your baseball bat hits hard but it won't break out of a net.

[bigdamnhero]

I would hope that the player then asks you whether he might apply a limitation to his HA that makes this explicit on his character sheet.

 

I agree, brass knuckles probably should not make it easier but that should be reflected in the build and the cost of the attack.

Fair point. In general I'm always open to revising builds to make them both rules-better and concept-better. Tho like a lot of things, it depends if we think this case is a one-off or something that's likely to come up regularly. [shrug] All powers have an sfx of one kind or another; sometimes that provides an advantage, sometimes a limitation (lower-case). As long as the two roughly balance each other out, there's no need to make it an Advantage or a Limitation (upper-case).

[Tasha]

I would hope that the player then asks you whether he might apply a limitation to his HA that makes this explicit on his character sheet.

 

I agree, brass knuckles probably should not make it easier but that should be reflected in the build and the cost of the attack.

Though Brass Knuckles are technically an OIF, I would still buy restrainable on them because they are useless when the user is tied up. So it would never be possible to use brass knuckles to break out of an Entangle.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't know if an extra Limitation is actually what is needed at all in this case.

 

I think the 'real world' special effect most folks are thinking about is the comparison between blunt objects and those with a cutting edge. At first this seems to match up with Normal vs. Killing damage but there are obvious exceptions. A tire iron could arguably be considered blunt killing damage and would do diddly-squat for someone holding it while entangled.  The same goes for an Ice Pick as it also doesn't have an 'edge' to slice with. A pocket knife does though.  The slicing action of a 'sharp' blade doesn't require any significant STR to slowly be used to cut through things.  Light Sabers are a much more obvious fictional example of this.  When a Jedi shoves their light saber through a blast door and then proceed to slowly cut a hole out like slicing through butter they really aren't doing anything but letting the 'blade' do its own cutting. This has been modeled in the last 2 Star Hero books by using a Compound Power build with part 1 being a traditional KA with a STR minimum (that usually doesn't add to damage) and part 2 built as a KA with a Limited Damage Shield/AOE Surface (whatever touches the blade). The same could be done for real world 'sharp bladed' weapons (a 1 pip KA with a Limited AOE Surface Advantage). I don't think this needs to actually be stated out but there is value in noting it in a similar fashion to how the Talents have traditional Power builds listed in the core books.

 

HM

[Tasha]

Of course ALL of the weapons you are talking about are OAF's so technically couldn't be used by someone in an entangle.

[Grailknight]

It's not that the brass knuckles should do less damage to the Entangle; the Entangle should get get more DEF against the brass knuckles. 

 

SFX vs SFX  should not be used to give a limitation to a power that the player didn't get points on,  SFX should only give bonuses and/or hindrances vs the  vs the environment and objects.

 

Otherwise you will eventually come up against a situation where two characters who lack Limitations or Complications come up against each other and headaches will ensue.

[bigdamnhero]

I agree blunt-vs-edged is a factor. But it's also a question of how the power works. In the absence of a usable Killing Attack, you're generally trying to muscle your way out of most Entangles. So basic arm & body STR counts, and anything that adds to that would also help - bionic arms, powersuits, etc. Anything that just helps your punch hurt more - brass knuckles, et. al. - not so much. What I'm racking my brain for is an example of an HA that would add to STR for purposes of breaking out of Entangles, but would not add to Lifting capacity, Grabbing damage etc, which are specifically excluded from the HA rules?

[Grailknight]

But people have already given that example, any Power with accessible focus or restrainable qualifies.

 

Approach this from a different angle, the brass knuckles punch just as hard against glass or cloth or even glue for that matter. The difference lies in the properties of the item being struck. Force dispersed  rather than force delivered.

[Doc Democracy]

I think you can argue the ins and outs of the SFX for additional HA til you are blue in the face but I know at least one of my players who would argue that he paid for the effect and he expects to get the value for it.  :-)

 

As far as the value of something equivalent to brass knuckles that is not kiboshed by being an OIF or OAF and therefore usable but with a illogical SFX there are little things that make a difference.  I know that I would rather pull a cord using something hard (like brass knuckles) rather than have it bite into my skin.  I can apply more strength that way.  I might also rule that the implement has a sharper edge somewhere on it that might be used to better abraid the entangle.

 

Or something.  :-)

 

 

Doc