Common mistake of "lethal powers" in Champions

[Tech]

What I'm about to say is, of course, campaign dependent. However, I've noticed a common misunderstanding of what should be - and is - a lethal attack/power in the Champions world. I first noticed this when some friends played in someone else campaign and their heroes met some Viper agents. All the Viper agents had killing attacks, then AP KA, and so forth. All of them. The villains did, too. The GM of that campaign held his position that Viper was out to kill people (and heroes I guess) so all their attacks should be be able to kill. It's because of that view that particular campaign fizzled quickly. My older brother who was playing in that campaign brought out the problem: the GM is misunderstanding what is lethal.

 

I agree with his observation and here they are: lethality is subjective. Your average John Q Public is a goner if hit with 12d6. You don't need a killing attack to be lethal. A 10d6 AP blast is likewise in that realm. However, most heroes can take a 12d6 attack and keep coming. Did it hurt? Very most likely? Did it cause Body? Most likely not. Is it lethal to the hero? I seriously doubt it. Did John Q Public who just saw the hero get blasted think the hero is incredible because he took the blast and jumped at the villain? Definitely. In the course of a battle in the public arena, often stray attacks damage things like cars, walls, lampposts, the street and so on. People know when a car gets blasted and it's destroyed that if they'd been hit by that attack, they'd be a goner. 12d6 or even a good roll on 10d6 can be lethal to your normal Joe. Thugs with a 4 or 6 PD/ED will be seriously injured by even one attack of 10 or 12d6.

 

I see write-ups here and there where a full-power attack is KA. I think your 5d6 KA could easily be 15d6 - and probably more effective in Stun and knockback. I've changed a great deal of my villains over time. Yeah, KA will cause BODY to unprotected normals and supers, but heroes can also have resistance to KA. I've found that someone eating a wall (using a 8d6 AP Str) will cause the effect of concern on heroes faces, with no need to use a KA.

 

A general rule I've found is: the more a GM allows killing attacks, the more players will buy resistant def for characters.

 

As i said, this is campaign dependent because of so many variables, including resistant defenses, frequency and amount of damage and so on. I find though that this works for me, and ultimately helps the campaign from spiraling into the ever likely spiral of power escalation. We had that happening and we confronted the problem. Part of the problem was KA and resist def. We didn't like where the killing attacks were going in power, and as a group, changed it.

 

Will a 10 or 12d6 attack ever kill a hero in our campaign? 99% no. Is it still dangerous to the public? Yes, and that's where being a hero comes in.

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

The CvK thread in my signature is related to this topic as well. Pulling a Punch is the heroic way to deal with such lethality issues.

 

HM

[Mr. R]

Well said!

[DasBroot]

The CvK thread in my signature is related to this topic as well. Pulling a Punch is the heroic way to deal with such lethality issues.

 

HM

 

I heartily endorse the 'no OCV penalty for pulling a punch' option in superheroic games.

 

My players use it mostly to reduce knockback distances on foes, though  Anything powerful enough to take a hit from one of the heroes and not get knocked out or stunned probably wasn't going to take any body from that 12d6 attack anyways.

 

'Tasers' (attacks with Stun Only) are also popular for the same reason.

[Ninja-Bear]

Another option is that anything with real world limitation and NPC takes x2 Body of the (Normal) attack. Named NPCs and main characters do not of course.

[TheQuestionMan]

One of GM's became concerned when my character used 10d6 AP attacks on normal bank robbers. With a character with a Code vs. Murder (Not Killing).

 

He was not concerned because he was also a Healer.

 

QM 

[mrinku]

This very issue was well addressed in the classic Adventurers' Club article "Gilt Complex", which I believe is in the downloads section of this very website.

 

You can also start introducing some of the rules usually used for Heroic games on players that get a bit damage happy. Hit Locations,  the optional effects of damage, Critical Hits etc. And always remember that most regular people aren't based on 10s for their stats.

 

"Hmm. 8 BODY to the head on that bank teller from your explosion. Good thing she was eight metres away. Minus 2 PD, doubled for hit location gives 12 BODY off her total of 8, down to -4... I'll check the other nine civilians in a second. That'll be a Disabling wound to the head... might be brain damage or paralysis - I'll work that out if she survives after the ER has had a go at saving her. Assuming she gets medical attention in the next four turns. Hopefully the other people will get away with nothing worse than broken limbs.

 

The villain was knocked back a bit but wasn't stunned, by the way. He's setting up to attack next segment - do you want to abort to take defensive action?"

[Tech]

This very issue was well addressed in the classic Adventurers' Club article "Gilt Complex", which I believe is in the downloads section of this very website.

 

You can also start introducing some of the rules usually used for Heroic games on players that get a bit damage happy. Hit Locations,  the optional effects of damage, Critical Hits etc. And always remember that most regular people aren't based on 10s for their stats.

 

"Hmm. 8 BODY to the head on that bank teller from your explosion. Good thing she was eight metres away. Minus 2 PD, doubled for hit location gives 12 BODY off her total of 8, down to -4... I'll check the other nine civilians in a second. That'll be a Disabling wound to the head... might be brain damage or paralysis - I'll work that out if she survives after the ER has had a go at saving her. Assuming she gets medical attention in the next four turns. Hopefully the other people will get away with nothing worse than broken limbs.

 

The villain was knocked back a bit but wasn't stunned, by the way. He's setting up to attack next segment - do you want to abort to take defensive action?"

 

My point is that often, a write-up of a hero/villain seems to end up with a "full power attack/maximum damage/whatever" being a KA. A maximum blast of fire/cold/etc doesn't necessarily make it hurt anymore more (Killing Attack) than just more damage (Blast) simply because more of it is used. People sometimes build killing attacks because whatever attack is more powerful but it's a flaw in thinking.

 

As a GM personally, I roll lousy on any killing attacks the vast majority of the time.

[TheQuestionMan]

Ditto

[mrinku]

My point is that often, a write-up of a hero/villain seems to end up with a "full power attack/maximum damage/whatever" being a KA. A maximum blast of fire/cold/etc doesn't necessarily make it hurt anymore more (Killing Attack) than just more damage (Blast) simply because more of it is used. People sometimes build killing attacks because whatever attack is more powerful but it's a flaw in thinking.

 

As a GM personally, I roll lousy on any killing attacks the vast majority of the time.

 

Oh, I agree.

 

It makes sense for *some* characters, though. The classic one from the comics is the Human Torch going Nova... but that's meant to be a horribly dangerous use of his power that burns him out. The reason I'd see to build that as a KA is because you want the character to use it with great caution, not because it's inherently more powerful. But there's no real reason you couldn't build it using normal damage, too. And AP goes a long way to simulate that as well.

 

The right way of approaching it for me is like the Killing Blow maneuver. It's not MORE powerful than Offensive Strike but may be tactically more useful. Again with the Torch, I've seen him focus his flame on to one hand or even a finger in order to weld or burn through metal; that's definitely KA territory. But tactical use, not ultimate use.

 

Other points to consider are knockback and STUN effects. If the "ultimate" version of the power is meant to be turning things up to 11, you'd expect more of everything. But a KA version may well do a lot less knockback, and is likely to do less STUN, so it doesn't sound right at all.

[dsatow]

My point is that often, a write-up of a hero/villain seems to end up with a "full power attack/maximum damage/whatever" being a KA. A maximum blast of fire/cold/etc doesn't necessarily make it hurt anymore more (Killing Attack) than just more damage (Blast) simply because more of it is used. People sometimes build killing attacks because whatever attack is more powerful but it's a flaw in thinking.

 

As a GM personally, I roll lousy on any killing attacks the vast majority of the time.

 

People generally think KA is better mainly due to the stun lottery before the 6th edition.  The stun lottery basically enabled the one shot KO making it a dangerous attack. 

 

I generally throw about 50/50, mostly dependent on special effect.  Most military weaponry does killing unless designed to incapacitate.  Most supers do blast or strength damage unless armed with a military style weapon.  I generally warn players to have at least 50% resistant otherwise a thug with a gun will get a luck shot and kill the character.  This hasn't been too bad with the combat luck talent since 5th.

 

As a GM, I bought off the limitation on rolling lousy on killing attacks.  Instead, I roll lousy breaking out of grabs and entangles. (ex: Roll 12d6 to break free of a 6/6 entangle, I get 8 body.  Next time I roll 9 Body.  The third time, I roll 6 Body.  Finally, I roll 11 Body and break free.  Sadly, this was the brick.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

People generally think KA is better mainly due to the stun lottery before the 6th edition.

 

 

I think of it as better for killing because people have no defenses against the body unless they somehow are wearing a flak vest or something.  A 10d6 blast is very dangerous against a normal person, but a 3d6+1 killing attack will probably kill them on the spot.

[Ninja-Bear]

I've seen people in 4 color but HKA because it's better to break out of entangles but not for attacks.

[BoloOfEarth]

With attacks in a Multipower, I've often created villains having a normal attack with reduced END, and the "full power" RKA at full END.  So, for example, a 75-point Multipower might have a 12d6 Blast at Half END (3 END), or a 5d6 RKA (7 END).  The Blast averages 12 BODY (with a max of 24), and the RKA averaging 17.5 BODY (with a max of 30).   Yeah, it's not exactly apples vs. oranges, but IMO it's a way of doing the "standard" vs. "full power" attack.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah KA's for robots and stuff like rubble or inanimate objects comes up too.  Not used often, but there in a pinch.

[indy523]

Are Killing attacks the most lethal?

The average Viper agent is going to wear a 5 rPD/5 rED Kevlar Vest or Bullet proof rubber suit. 

 

USing a 4d6 RKA vs PD attack that  is an average body roll of 3.5 *4 or 14 damage.  So 14-5=9 damage body and 28-5 23 stun.  Not dead but stunned for a phase Assume 13 bod and 26 stun

 

Hmm.... Suppose our Viper Agent has 6 PD/ED normally 

 

12d6   12 body -5+6 or-11 equals 1 Bod and 3.5*12 or average 42 Stun  -11 is 33 which is lights out for the Viper Agent.  Assuming you are fighting multiple agents the KA made a larger red gash on his side but after one phase someone has to waste another attack.

 

How about 9d6 AP 9 Bod - (11/2=5) or 4 Bod and 3.5*9=31.5 -5 or 26.5 Stun, Bleeds more and still Nighty night

 

Both cases the standard attack is more effective. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Misread post and wrote a response which was wrong.

[Hyper-Man]

"Heat Vision" is rightfully considered one of Superman's most lethal Powers but it has many other uses.  The following is from a VPP on a rookie version of the character mostly based on Superman:TAS.
 

0    23) Heat Vision v1: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (Could be swapped out with Indirect to be usable with "Man of Steel v3: Barrier".; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (60 Active Points); Can Be Deflected (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) Real Cost: 30 - END=3
0    24) Heat Vision v2: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Can Be Deflected (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) Real Cost: 30

[Notes: Area Of Effect Accurate could be swapped out with Continuous for the same level of damage but it requires adding Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) to keep a 30 Real Cost. If Penetrating is swapped out instead there is no need to add Concentration.] - END=6
0    25) Heat Vision v3: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) Real Cost: 30 - END=6
0    26) Heat Vision v4: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2), Autofire (5 shots; 2 END per shot fired; +1 1/2) (60 Active Points); Can Be Deflected (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) Real Cost: 30

[Notes: Up to 5d6k total damage vs. targets without resistant defenses.  Up to 5 Body vs. targets without Impenetrable resistant defenses.] - END=2
0    27) Disarming Heat Vision: Blast 1d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Sticky (Only the affected metal object is "Sticky"; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Cone; +3/4), Selective (+1/4), Does BODY (+1), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support Extreme Heat; +1 1/2), Damage Over Time (129-256 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, can be negated by ending contact with the "affected" metal; Dropping the metal weapon; +5 3/4) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Targets Touching Metal (-1/2) Real Cost: 30

[Notes: This is the classic hotfoot vs. held weapons.] - END=3
0    28) Welding Heat Vision: Healing BODY 1 1/2d6 (standard effect: 4 points), Can Heal Limbs, Limited Range (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. metal or other substance that could normally be repaired via heat welding (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) Real Cost: 30 - END=2

 

Note that when it comes to killing other Kryptonians Heat Vision is probably not up to the task which is why either Kryptonite or brute strength is need in the media.  Also note that Heat Vision v4 is likely the most lethal verses "Normals".

 

HM

[BoloOfEarth]

Are Killing attacks the most lethal?

The average Viper agent is going to wear a 5 rPD/5 rED Kevlar Vest or Bullet proof rubber suit. 

 

USing a 4d6 RKA vs PD attack that  is an average body roll of 3.5 *4 or 14 damage.  So 14-5=9 damage body and 28-5 23 stun.  Not dead but stunned for a phase Assume 13 bod and 26 stun

 

Hmm.... Suppose our Viper Agent has 6 PD/ED normally 

 

12d6   12 body -5+6 or-11 equals 1 Bod and 3.5*12 or average 42 Stun  -11 is 33 which is lights out for the Viper Agent.  Assuming you are fighting multiple agents the KA made a larger red gash on his side but after one phase someone has to waste another attack.

 

How about 9d6 AP 9 Bod - (11/2=5) or 4 Bod and 3.5*9=31.5 -5 or 26.5 Stun, Bleeds more and still Nighty night

 

Both cases the standard attack is more effective. 

 

Yes, the standard attack is more effective -- if the intent is to make the target unconscious. 

 

But if the goal is to, y'know, kill the target, then the killing attack is far more effective.  Using your example, 9 BODY taken vs. 1 BODY taken is a huge difference.  Depending on optional rules used, that guy hit by the RKA is going to bleed out (most likely negative BODY in 2 Turns), is definitely impaired, and potentially disabled.

 

And as Tech (and others) have pointed out, the standard attack is just about as lethal as the killing attack to the unprotected normal with 2 PD / 2 ED and no resistant defenses.  But I don't see that as a comment on the Blast vs. KA, so much as the fact that the target's defenses are practically non-existent.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Are Killing attacks the most lethal?

 

Against unarmored opponents, the most common in the real world by a huge margin: yes.

In a superhero game where most targets have resistant defenses, not so much.  Which is, perhaps, a flaw with Hero, since bullets might still kill someone wearing armor in the real world.

[BoloOfEarth]

Killing Attacks are, potentially, more lethal than Blasts.

 

First and obviously, the BODY damage of a KA only goes against resistant defenses, whereas most people will have additional PD / ED beyond their rPD / rED.

 

For another, the average BODY from a KA is slightly higher (14 on 4d6) than a comparable Blast (12 on 12d6).

 

Finally, the distribution for 4d6 (total pips) is flatter than the distribution of 12d6 (BODY count).  For 12d6 (BODY count), one standard deviation from the mean ranges from roughly 10 to 14.  For 4d6 (total pips), one s/d ranges from 11 to 17.  If you look at 2 s/d from the mean, you get 8 to 16 BODY for 12d6, whereas you get 8 to 20 for 4d6.

 

It really depends upon the amount of resistant defenses.  I'll admit that as a GM, I've tend to write up practically everybody with at least some rPD and rED, though I don't feel it's necessary to have most of their defenses be resistant.  I'd say my standard is 10-12 rPD / 20-24 total PD (and similar for ED).  Of course, YMMV, and probably does. If everybody in your game runs around with 15-18 rPD / rED, then yeah, practically nothing is getting BODY past that.  But I'd say that's a possible case of defense bloat.

 

Looking at published characters, they seem to range from "tissue-paper defenses" to "OMG uber defenses" with many seeming to fall into the 12-15 rPD / rED range.  Heck, Eurostar (a fairly tough group) ranges from 8 rPD / 8 rED (Pantera and Scorpia) and 10 rPD / 10 rED (Ultrasonique) to 30 rPD / 30 rED (Durak).  So a 4d6 RKA could potentially be a real threat to some of them.

[Tech]

No disagreement Bolo. I may merely making a point that alot of times when a write-up says something to the effect of "full power", it's KA, not blast. It just occurred to me that our 60 Str or higher bricks don't have their "full power" damage as KA, they just use their full Str.

[massey]

Anything that's 8D6 or above is potentially lethal to a normal human.  I mean, on average an 8D6 EB will do 6 Body and 26 Stun to a generic human.  That will put Joe Normal in the hospital with multiple broken bones and will knock him out cold, in addition to likely hurling him 5-10 feet backwards.  It's like getting hit by a car at 20 or 30 mph.  It will mess you up.  Larger attacks are going to be even more lethal.

 

As far as the "full power" aspect, that's a design choice by certain writers at a certain point in time.  It's fine for some characters, but it doesn't have to be the case for others.  It's like some people who have poison attacks that are defined as Drains, and others are defined as NND Killing Attacks that do Body.  There's not a right and wrong here, it's all based on what somebody's vision for the character is.

[BoloOfEarth]

No disagreement Bolo. I may merely making a point that alot of times when a write-up says something to the effect of "full power", it's KA, not blast.

 

FWIW, I agree with you and your basic point that with same-DC Blasts and KAs, the Blast is generally preferred for superpowered combat.  I was just pointing out alternate ways of doing the "normal vs. full power attack" (e.g. Blast at slightly lower DC with reduced END, vs. full DC KA) or how/where a KA is preferable to a Blast.

 

As to the point you made in your OP about the proliferation of resistant defenses, I agree.  The players in my campaign have gone a bit wild on buying up their defenses - both resistant defenses, as well as exotic defenses (Mental Defense, Power Defense).  The lowest among them is 10 rPD / 10 rED (and that character has 50% rPD / rED Damage Reduction and Regeneration) with the highest being 20 rPD / 20 rED.  Add to that, the team mage has a spell that can add +6 rPD / +6 rED / +2 Mental / +3 Flash Sight & Touch, all Hardened and Impenetrable, Usable by up to 8 people.   (Yes, I know, it's my own damn fault for allowing it.  He pitched it as using it to help civilians, but has almost exclusively used it to buff the other PCs.)  So basically, they range from 16 to 26 rPD / rED. 

 

I don't tend to pull out a lot of Killing Attacks, so I blame a lot of my players' high resistant defense on the ease with which you can slap Advantages and Limitations on Resistant Protection (for both regular and exotic defenses) in Hero Designer, whereas you have to buy each piece (PD, ED, Mental, etc) individually for non-resistant defenses.  I kinda wish there was a "Normal Protection" thing in Hero Designer, of a similar format as RP, to make it easier to lump non-resistant defenses together with common Advantages and Limitations.

[Hyper-Man]

There is. Buy characteristics as a power and choose PD & ED.

 

HM