Elves vs MCU villains

[Certified]

3 hours ago, assault said:

My personal favourite parallel universe was the one where the Red Skull, Aldrich Kilian and General Zod went on a road trip in Australia.

 

Not only did they go on a road trip but about half way through met up with Rita Repulsa and were... um... out shined by her skills to entertain. 

[zslane]

15 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

While the swords of elven kings may not be more enchanted than other elven blades, elven blades appear to be enchanted in general.  As I mentioned earlier, Sting was able to pierce a troll where man-made weapons could not, and had glow-in-the-dark orc detection as well.  And Sting was a pretty ordinary elven knife.  We don't know if Glamdring was vorpal or what, but it's good enough to kill a Balrog with; it's not just a hunk of sharp metal.

 

I would agree that as a general rule, Elven weapons are far better made, and deliver superior performance than any others made in Middle-Earth. However, I'd love to know where Tolkien ever stated that all Elven blades had magic powers. Tolkien had a tendency to express "exquisitely made" as "enchanted" mostly as a poetic conceit. Whenever a weapon actually had special properties, Tolkien was pretty explicit about its powers, and he always gave it a name (e.g., Anguirel and Anglachel). To assign some sort of vague magicalness to them all is not only unhelpful (to determining how they would fare against materials from another fictional universe), it is essentially unsupported speculation. Sure, we see that some of the weapons made in Gondolin exhibit a glowing phenomenon (quite intensely in some cases) in the presence of orckind, but that is the extent of their "supernatural" abilities as described in the text.

 

As for Glamdring, it is impossible to know exactly what role it played in the death of Durin's Bane. It was being wielded by a Maia who was a servant of Eru, and its most useful property may have simply been its unearthly durability, giving it the ability to channel the power of creation (i.e., the Secret Fire, aka "flames of Arnor"). It was the durability of Elven blades in general that arguably helped Ecthelion kill three Balrogs in the defense of Gondolin; other than the ability to withstand the heat inherent in Balrog attacks, his sword is not described as anything particularly special.

 

12 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

The Lady of Light is probably the most powerful of the six listed entities. With Nenya, she's protected against evil barring Sauron showing up on the other side so that's a pretty big advantage. 

 

She also has foretelling, prophecy, scrying and produces magic gear for allies on top of the aforementioned defeat of the greatest evils of her era.

 

I'll take any team she's on. 

 

Edit: First age opponent armed with the phial (lightweight Silmaril powered by the light of the one in space), and stronghold shattering magic to go with her invulnerability to evil from her Ring of Power. Galadriel could tell the other two to hold her beer.

 

We don't know who made the phial that Galadriel gave to Frodo. It was almost certainly not Galadriel herself who never exhibited the kind of craftsmanship it would require to trap the light of a star/Silmaril in another object. That is Feanor-level craft there, son. I also think it is a stretch to ascribe Nenya as having an "Invulnerability to Evil" enchantment on it, which in any event would have meant "protection against Morgoth and his creations," not "invulnerability to comic-book villains". Unless, of course, you subscribe to the notion that MCU villains are all descendants from Morgoth somehow.

 

The characters of Middle-Earth are unfortunately hampered by the fact that their power, to the extent that they had any, was tied to the lingering (but waning) essence of Illuvitar's Secret Fire on Middle-Earth. By the Fourth Age, that power was gone, which is why the Elves all left for Aman. To make the Elflords of Middle-Earth relevant in the MCU, you'd have to re-express them in MCU terms. Maybe the Secret Fire is now called the Power Cosmic (a term that hasn't appeared in the MCU yet, BTW). We would have to re-imagine Nenya and its "abilities", and re-write these characters almost entirely.

[Starlord]

All 3 elves have lightsabers.  Go!

[Iuz the Evil]

2 hours ago, zslane said:

 

I would agree that as a general rule, Elven weapons are far better made, and deliver superior performance than any others made in Middle-Earth. However, I'd love to know where Tolkien ever stated that all Elven blades had magic powers. Tolkien had a tendency to express "exquisitely made" as "enchanted" mostly as a poetic conceit. Whenever a weapon actually had special properties, Tolkien was pretty explicit about its powers, and he always gave it a name (e.g., Anguirel and Anglachel). To assign some sort of vague magicalness to them all is not only unhelpful (to determining how they would fare against materials from another fictional universe), it is essentially unsupported speculation. Sure, we see that some of the weapons made in Gondolin exhibit a glowing phenomenon (quite intensely in some cases) in the presence of orckind, but that is the extent of their "supernatural" abilities as described in the text.

 

As for Glamdring, it is impossible to know exactly what role it played in the death of Durin's Bane. It was being wielded by a Maia who was a servant of Eru, and its most useful property may have simply been its unearthly durability, giving it the ability to channel the power of creation (i.e., the Secret Fire, aka "flames of Arnor"). It was the durability of Elven blades in general that arguably helped Ecthelion kill three Balrogs in the defense of Gondolin; other than the ability to withstand the heat inherent in Balrog attacks, his sword is not described as anything particularly special.

 

 

We don't know who made the phial that Galadriel gave to Frodo. It was almost certainly not Galadriel herself who never exhibited the kind of craftsmanship it would require to trap the light of a star/Silmaril in another object. That is Feanor-level craft there, son. I also think it is a stretch to ascribe Nenya as having an "Invulnerability to Evil" enchantment on it, which in any event would have meant "protection against Morgoth and his creations," not "invulnerability to comic-book villains". Unless, of course, you subscribe to the notion that MCU villains are all descendants from Morgoth somehow.

 

The characters of Middle-Earth are unfortunately hampered by the fact that their power, to the extent that they had any, was tied to the lingering (but waning) essence of Illuvitar's Secret Fire on Middle-Earth. By the Fourth Age, that power was gone, which is why the Elves all left for Aman. To make the Elflords of Middle-Earth relevant in the MCU, you'd have to re-express them in MCU terms. Maybe the Secret Fire is now called the Power Cosmic (a term that hasn't appeared in the MCU yet, BTW). We would have to re-imagine Nenya and its "abilities", and re-write these characters almost entirely.

I think it is an extreme stretch to cherry pick the abilities of a Ring of Power to only effect "Morgoth and his creations". If the Rings were so limited the series was a huge waste of time, as the One Ring could only really corrupt other ring wearing individuals. 

 

Nenya's purview is protection. Specifically against evil. That'll do for at least two of the three entities (Hela and the Red Skull). Unless as mentioned above you subscribe to the notion that all the Rings of Power have a limited power set far below what is described in the novels. 

 

She wielded the "power of Nenya, Galadriel's Ring of Power, which only Sauron himself could have overcome. The elves, led by Thranduil of Mirkwood and Galadriel of Lorien led an assault on Dol Guldur and Galadriel herself threw down its walls, and laid its pits bare."

 

As none of those three are Sauron or Morgoth, they cannot overcome the power of Nenya. QED.

 

Whether she made it or not, Galadriel possessed the Phial. And provided numerous other crafted elven gifts. So she had access to a mini Silmaril canonically.

 

And she had cast back Sauron and his minions. And was second only to (or in one reference equal to) Feanor. That's First Era magic there son, and none of those three MCU villains save possibly Hela can stand against it, and even she can't overcome it unless greater than Sauron (which is ludicrous).

 

 

 

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Starlord said:

All 3 elves have lightsabers.  Go!

 

Elrond kills Thranduil handily and is then slain in turn by Galadriel who needs no lightsaber.  She loots the bodies, wearing Vilya as a nose ring.

[Bazza]

The Rings of Power would be similar in power to either an Infinity Stone or a item like Casket of Winter, Eternal Flame or Mjolnir. 

 

Depends if you think Rings of Power exists before/after the time of creation. 

 

My two cents. 

[zslane]

1 hour ago, Iuz the Evil said:

I think it is an extreme stretch to cherry pick the abilities of a Ring of Power to only effect "Morgoth and his creations". If the Rings were so limited the series was a huge waste of time, as the One Ring could only really corrupt other ring wearing individuals. 

 

Nenya's purview is protection. Specifically against evil. That'll do for at least two of the three entities (Hela and the Red Skull). Unless as mentioned above you subscribe to the notion that all the Rings of Power have a limited power set far below what is described in the novels. 

 

She wielded the "power of Nenya, Galadriel's Ring of Power, which only Sauron himself could have overcome. The elves, led by Thranduil of Mirkwood and Galadriel of Lorien led an assault on Dol Guldur and Galadriel herself threw down its walls, and laid its pits bare."

 

As none of those three are Sauron or Morgoth, they cannot overcome the power of Nenya. QED.

 

Whether she made it or not, Galadriel possessed the Phial. And provided numerous other crafted elven gifts. So she had access to a mini Silmaril canonically.

 

And she had cast back Sauron and his minions. And was second only to (or in one reference equal to) Feanor. That's First Era magic there son, and none of those three MCU villains save possibly Hela can stand against it, and even she can't overcome it unless greater than Sauron (which is ludicrous).

 

 

Nenya's power could at best be expressed as preservation. As mentioned in the One Wiki, Elrond firmly stated that while the Three Rings were not idle during the Third Age, they were not made as weapons of war. They were made to preserve and heal. As they were made to ward off the effects of time, at best the rings could give the wielder extra stamina and endurance, as Cirdan stated when he gave Narya to Gandalf. Moreover, Tolkien's description of the assault on Dol Goldur, and Galadriel's actions during it, is epic myth-telling at its poetic best, and not to be read so literally. That assault involved two Elven hosts, two Elflords, and two Istari (Maiar). Casting back Sauron (who was at a tiny fraction of his full power) and his modest orc contingent is not so impressive a feat as Tolkien's purple prose might make it sound.

 

My point about the phial is that it is gone, and Galadriel has never been shown to possess the skills necessary to make more similar items of power. I'd like to study the text where it says Galadriel was second only to Feanor as a master of craft; could you point me to the relevant texts? Thanks.

 

Sauron was a Maia. Hela is Asgard's most powerful goddess. I don't find it such a stretch to put them into the same category power-wise.

[zslane]

1 hour ago, Bazza said:

The Rings of Power would be similar in power to either an Infinity Stone or a item like Casket of Winter, Eternal Flame or Mjolnir. 

 

Depends if you think Rings of Power exists before/after the time of creation. 

 

My two cents. 

 

Apologies, but I can't quite parse the second statement. Before/after the time of which creation?

 

Bear in mind that the Infinity gems/stones are manifestations of the universe's fundamental axioms of existance/reality, whereas the rings of power are just magic items forged by an Elf smith guided by a Maia during Earth's pre-history. At best the rings are equivalent in power to Mjolnir.

[Iuz the Evil]

20 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

Nenya's power could at best be expressed as preservation. As mentioned in the One Wiki, Elrond firmly stated that while the Three Rings were not idle during the Third Age, they were not made as weapons of war. They were made to preserve and heal. As they were made to ward off the effects of time, at best the rings could give the wielder extra stamina and endurance, as Cirdan stated when he gave Narya to Gandalf. Moreover, Tolkien's description of the assault on Dol Goldur, and Galadriel's actions during it, is epic myth-telling at its poetic best, and not to be read so literally. That assault involved two Elven hosts, two Elflords, and two Istari (Maiar). Casting back Sauron (who was at a tiny fraction of his full power) and his modest orc contingent is not so impressive a feat as Tolkien's purple prose might make it sound.

 

My point about the phial is that it is gone, and Galadriel has never been shown to possess the skills necessary to make more similar items of power. I'd like to study the text where it says Galadriel was second only to Feanor as a master of craft; could you point me to the relevant texts? Thanks.

 

Sauron was a Maia. Hela is Asgard's most powerful goddess. I don't find it such a stretch to put them into the same category power-wise.

Hela in the MCU is not a goddess, as the Asgardians are depicted as advanced aliens rather than deities.

 

Second only to Feanor among the elves, that'd be in the Silmarilion.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Galadriel+equal+to+Feanor

 

If the phial is gone, then Hela is dead. Depicted in the movie and over and done. 

[zslane]

21 minutes ago, Iuz the Evil said:

Hela in the MCU is not a goddess, as the Asgardians are depicted as advanced aliens rather than deities.

 

Second only to Feanor among the elves, that'd be in the Silmarilion.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Galadriel+equal+to+Feanor

 

If the phial is gone, then Hela is dead. Depicted in the movie and over and done. 

 

The nature of the Asgardians appears to have changed recently: 

 

 

 

I don't think we can say for sure what Hela's ultimate fate was. Did she die at Ragnarok? Or did she "die" at Ragnarok? Remember, it was believed Loki died, but that turned out to be an exaggeration.

 

In any case, I'm assuming that these three Elves are somehow transported to the MCU at a time prior to Red Skull's demise in First Avenger. However, if time and space are arbitrary parameters, then I think it becomes important to know what powers and weapons/items each participant is assumed to possess.

[Bazza]

19 hours ago, zslane said:

As for Glamdring, it is impossible to know exactly what role it played in the death of Durin's Bane. It was being wielded by a Maia who was a servant of Eru, and its most useful property may have simply been its unearthly durability, giving it the ability to channel the power of creation (i.e., the Secret Fire, aka "flames of Arnor"). It was the durability of Elven blades in general that arguably helped Ecthelion kill three Balrogs in the defense of Gondolin; other than the ability to withstand the heat inherent in Balrog attacks, his sword is not described as anything particularly special.

[...]

The characters of Middle-Earth are unfortunately hampered by the fact that their power, to the extent that they had any, was tied to the lingering (but waning) essence of Illuvitar's Secret Fire on Middle-Earth. By the Fourth Age, that power was gone, which is why the Elves all left for Aman. To make the Elflords of Middle-Earth relevant in the MCU, you'd have to re-express them in MCU terms. Maybe the Secret Fire is now called the Power Cosmic (a term that hasn't appeared in the MCU yet, BTW). We would have to re-imagine Nenya and its "abilities", and re-write these characters almost entirely.

 

Quoted above for the parts referencing the Secret Fire / Illuvitar. 

 

16 hours ago, Bazza said:

The Rings of Power would be similar in power to either an Infinity Stone or a item like Casket of Winter, Eternal Flame or Mjolnir. 

 

Depends if you think Rings of Power exists before/after the time of creation. 

 

My two cents. 

 

Hypothesis restated: If the Elvish Rings of Power channel the Secret Fire of Illuvitar, then they would be similar to the Infinity Stones in the MCU. Or are they similar to other relics in the MCU such as Casket of Ancient Winters, Eternal Flame or Mjolnir?

 

Answer will focus on the nature of the Infinity Stones, the Rings of Power, and Secret Fire of Illuvitar. 

 

From the MCU:

 

Quote

"There are relics that predate the universe itself. What lies within her appears to be one of them...Their leader, Malekith made a weapon out of that darkness, it was called the Aether. While the other relics often appeared as stones, the Aether is fluid and ever changing. It changes matter into dark matter and seeks out to host bodies, drawing strength from their life force. Malekith sought to use the Aether's power to return the universe to one of darkness."  ~ Odin (1)

 

Quote

"Before creation itself, there were six singularities. [he uses a device to unlock and open the orb] Then the universe exploded into existence, and the remnants of these systems were forged into concentrated ingots. Infinity Stones. These stones, it seems, can only be brandished by beings of extraordinary strength." ~ The Collector (2)

 

Findings: The Infinity Stones predate the Universe's creation. Ergo, the Casket of Ancient Winters, Eternal Flame and Mjolnir, are created after the universe's creation.

 

From Middle Earth

 

Three Rings of Power (Narya, Nenya, Vilya) (3)

Findings: There is nothing here mentioning a connection between the Three Rings and Secret Fire or Illuvitar

 

Secret Fire

 

Quote

A mysterious power, never explained in detail, that seems to represent the principle of existence and creation. Little can be said of it for certain, though it seems to be identified with, or at least connected to, the Flame Imperishable of Ilúvatar. When Gandalf met the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, he spoke of himself as a servant of the Secret Fire. It has been conjectured that these words referred to his fire-ring Narya, but it seems unlikely that he would reveal this to a bitter enemy. More plausibly, Gandalf's words identify him as a servant of the power of Ilúvatar. (4)

 

Conclusion. There is no direct mention of a connection between the Elvish Three Rings and the Secret Fire of Ilúvatar. There is conjecture that Narya the Ring of Fire has a connection to the Secret Fire of Illuvitar. 

 

If there is direct connection between the Three Rings and  Secret Fire -- then the Three Rings are containers (cf Tesseract, Aether, Orb, Sceptre, Eye of Agamotto) for channelling the Secret Fire. 

 

If there is no connection between the Three Rings and the Secret Fire, then the Three Rings are more similar to artefacts like the Casket of Ancient Winters, Eternal Flame and Mjolnir.

 

This depends on a few things:
#1 that the Three Rings have an origin from before creation
#2 that the Three Rings channel a power from before creation
#3 or the Three Rings have an origin after the creation of the universe

 

References: 
(1) http://transcripts.wikia.com/wiki/Thor:_The_Dark_World
(2) http://transcripts.wikia.com/wiki/Guardians_of_the_Galaxy
(3) http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/threerings.html
(4) http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/secretfire.html
(5) http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/flameimperishable.html

[Bazza]

14 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Apologies, but I can't quite parse the second statement. Before/after the time of which creation?

 

Bear in mind that the Infinity gems/stones are manifestations of the universe's fundamental axioms of existance/reality, whereas the rings of power are just magic items forged by an Elf smith guided by a Maia during Earth's pre-history. At best the rings are equivalent in power to Mjolnir.

 

Refer to post above. Tried to make that clearer, and hopefully, that answers your question in the first paragraph. 

 

Als, i like what you said re the infinity stones being manifestations of universe's fundamental axioms of existence. In effect that makes them Transcendentals. The real Transcendentals coextensive with Being are unity, good, truth, beauty, thingness, and otherness. 

[Starlord]

Plus, they're shiny and make people go boom.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The rings are powerful artifacts, I'd put them up with Mjolnir, I agree.

 

The Silmarils, on the other hand...

[assault]

9 hours ago, Bazza said:

#3 or the Three Rings have an origin after the creation of the universe

 

The Three Rings were forged by Celebrimbor in Eregion. Unlike the Rings of Men and Dwarves, Sauron was not involved.

[IndianaJoe3]

On 3/30/2018 at 3:22 PM, dmjalund said:

I keep reading this as "Elvis vs MCU Villains" and it left me all shook up

 

Is one of the Infinity Stones a hunka hunka burning love?

[Cancer]

Don't you step on my blue suede Infinity Gauntlet!

[dmjalund]

On 4/3/2018 at 3:50 AM, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

Is one of the Infinity Stones a hunka hunka burning love?

well, the Soul stone is still missing

[Old Man]

Gandalf vs. Loki.

 

Legolas vs. Ultron.

[Starlord]

I think Gandalf and Loki would be bro's.

 

Movie Legolas v. Thanos w/ Infinity Gauntlet would be a more fair match-up.