Can I take a recovery?

[Tech]

By the rules, if a Hero with a DEX 25 starts to take a recovery and gets hit by a villain on DEX 20, the recovery is lost. However, if a villain with DEX 25 hits the hero who takes damage, can the Hero with DEX 20 take a recovery on the same phase he was hit?

[LoneWolf]

No taking a recovery is a full phase action that takes place at the end of the phase after everyone has acted. 

[ghost-angel]

Yes, the DEX20 Character can declare their Recovery even if a DEX25 Character has caused damage.

 

And it's not get hit, it's take damage - if your defenses completely block all the damage your already declared Recovery already occurs. If you take damage before your Action in a Phase you can still declare a Recovery Action, and it goes off at the normal time.

[Lucius]

So if I want to take a recovery, I should always hold action to the end of the segment and THEN declare it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says to check yourself before you REC yourself

[IndianaJoe3]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

So if I want to take a recovery, I should always hold action to the end of the segment and THEN declare it.

 

Explicitly forbidden. (6e2 129)

[ghost-angel]

This explicit denial of Hold Then Take A Recovery goes all the way back to 4E (HSR p167); probably further back. Just to head off any "that's why I don't like 6E" commentary.

[Lucius]

 

Ah. So I buy my DEX down to 1 and buy it up with a -0 Limitation, Not if Taking a RECovery

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says on the other hand, we could just change the rules......

 

 

[CptPatriot]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

 

Ah. So I buy my DEX down to 1 and buy it up with a -0 Limitation, Not if Taking a RECovery

 

 

So, you are forced to take a Recovery or do nothing if the GM goes past your Dex in the order and someone can still Hold until you attempt a Recovery to ruin your day.

[Lucius]

3 hours ago, cptpatriot said:

 

So, you are forced to take a Recovery or do nothing if the GM goes past your Dex in the order and someone can still Hold until you attempt a Recovery to ruin your day.

 

Yes, someone could hold an action and say "I hit him when he takes a RECovery."

 

But I don't see how the first part of your sentence applies.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if, for every held action, there is an equal and opposite held reaction....

[ghost-angel]

It's a bad loop designed to prevent people from gaming the system. Rules that are obviously only anti-twink rules are generally bad form.

 

Personally, I'd totally allow someone to Hold to take a Recovery, as long as their stated Hold Action condition is "so I can take a Recovery" and not the generally vague "I'm holding..."; They, of course, can't abort to a dodge or block in that time, they have to take the hits until their Held Action comes around... but it seems fair enough to me to allow. Hardly game breaking.

[CptPatriot]

16 hours ago, cptpatriot said:

 

So, you are forced to take a Recovery or do nothing if the GM goes past your Dex in the order and someone can still Hold until you attempt a Recovery to ruin your day.

 

12 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Yes, someone could hold an action and say "I hit him when he takes a RECovery."

 

But I don't see how the first part of your sentence applies.

 

 

It relates to what was said about buying back your Dex to 1 so you can potentially recover without being attacked and buying your Dex back up to a level to be used for all your other activities.

[Ninja-Bear]

21 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Ah. So I buy my DEX down to 1 and buy it up with a -0 Limitation, Not if Taking a RECovery

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says on the other hand, we could just change the rules......

 

 

It reasons like this we have rules bloat! ?. Seriously though Lucius points out that no matter how the rules are written someone can come along and break it. 

[Lucius]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 10:58 AM, cptpatriot said:

 

 

It relates to what was said about buying back your Dex to 1 so you can potentially recover without being attacked and buying your Dex back up to a level to be used for all your other activities.

 

Much as I dislike to directly contradict anyone - No. It doesn't relate.

 

What I proposed was:

 

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 5:05 PM, Lucius said:

 

Ah. So I buy my DEX down to 1 and buy it up with a -0 Limitation, Not if Taking a RECovery

 

 

If I had wanted to, I could have imposed another Limitation such that

 

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:25 PM, cptpatriot said:

 

So, you are forced to take a Recovery or do nothing if the GM goes past your Dex in the order

 

But I didn't want to, so I didn't, so there is no such LImitation. Nothing in what I suggested implies being "forced to take a RECovery or do nothing" if for whatever reason I fail to act at my regular DEX. It just means that if I take a RECovery, I do so at DEX 1.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders how much that Limitation is worth....

[Lucius]

17 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

It reasons like this we have rules bloat! ?. Seriously though Lucius points out that no matter how the rules are written someone can come along and break it. 

 

In this case, I think it came pre-broken.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says all Lucius did was stack the DEX, not mark the cards.

[CptPatriot]

Let me explain my PoV.

 

You have a character at Dex 1 with Dex +9, Not if taking a recovery.

When Dex 10 comes up in the order, assuming you have not done anything before that point and haven't been stunned from an attack, you need to declare at that moment to your GM, "GM, I'm Dex 1 this phase and doing nothing," then you are committed to either a Recovery or an Abort action.

 

After your declaration:

• If you abort between Dex 10 and Dex 1, you cannot use this phase's action to abort since you have chosen to do nothing and it cannot be considered a Held Phase. You would need to abort your next phase's action.
• If you are Stunned between Dex 10 and Dex 1, you are unable to recover from being Stunned since you can only take a Recovery at Dex 1 which is not the same as "recovering from being Stunned" citing the actions table on 6E2 23. You are forced into Recovering from being Stunned as your next phase action.

Guys, please tell me if this interpretation of the rules is incorrect.

[Lucius]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 3:36 PM, cptpatriot said:

Let me explain my PoV.

 

You have a character at Dex 1 with Dex +9, Not if taking a recovery.

When Dex 10 comes up in the order, assuming you have not done anything before that point and haven't been stunned from an attack, you need to declare at that moment to your GM, "GM, I'm Dex 1 this phase and doing nothing,"

 

No, I don't. If I plan to RECover then yes, I would. But if I am not planning to Recover, I can say something like "I wait for Slope Hoke who goes on DEX 8 and if he attacks I Block, if not, I attack him."  Or I can say "Slope Hoke blocked me last phase, remember, I have to act later than him this phase." Or I can say "I wait for my teammate Way Fermi to act on DEX 3 and grab this guy and then attack after the Grab attempt (hopefully hitting a target at half DCV if the Grab works.)"

 

 

Why can't I make this post work right???!!!

 

 

Okay, going to delete the part that's botched and try again in another post.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I don't think it's the palindromedary doing it

 

[eepjr24]

I would simply not allow the limitation, if I was going to enforce the rule at all, of course. I'd be more likely to use Ghost Angels interpretation and say if a player declared they were holding for a recover I'd allow them to do that and nothing else.

 

If I did enforce the rule, I'd probably allow an advantage to offset it. Something like +1/4 for all DEX (characteristic or power, limited or not) to allow hold for recovery. The value might go up if it turned out to be extremely useful, but I doubt it.

 

- E

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

In this case, I think it came pre-broken.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says all Lucius did was stack the DEX, not mark the cards.

Perhaps it did. The thing is to fix it should we say that that’s against the spirit of the rules and don’t allow it or does 7th ed need 6 pages of why it shouldn’t be allowed?? Then we’ll have someone complain that that’s not fair to his/her character design.

[Hugh Neilson]

The intuitive concern is that this rule makes a low DEX advantageous instead of being a drawback.  A couple of easy fixes would be to:

 

Modify Taking a Recovery to simply be a full-phase action.  You can catch your breath on your DEX and later damage does not matter;

 

MOST COMPLEX:  Modify Taking a Recovery so you announce on your DEX (or any time in your segment) and wait until the same DEX on your next phase.  If you declare it in a later segment, you have to wait until that DEX, that many segments after your next phase, before it will work.

 

Let it act on your DEX, or at the end of the phase (as present), but the 1/2 DCV remains until your next phase, like any other modifier to your DCV.

[CptPatriot]

1 minute ago, Lucius said:

No, I don't. If I plan to RECover then yes, I would. But if I am not planning to Recover, I can say something like "I wait for Slope Hoke who goes on DEX 8 and if he attacks I Block, if not, I attack him."  Or I can say "Slope Hoke blocked me last phase, remember, I have to act later than him this phase." Or I can say "I wait for my teammate Way Fermi to act on DEX 3 and grab this guy and then attack after the Grab attempt (hopefully hitting a target at half DCV if the Grab works.)"

1

 

Unfortunately, some of those statements are in error.

• "I wait for Slope Hoke..." would be considered a Held Action and prevent you from taking a Recovery at Dex 1.
• "I wait for my teammate Way Fermi to act on DEX 3..." is also considered a Held Action.
• "Slope Hoke blocked me last phase..." is valid and you would have to wait until his action before you can do anything

Citation: 6E2 20, 1st Column

[Lucius]

13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Perhaps it did. The thing is to fix it should we say that that’s against the spirit of the rules and don’t allow it or does 7th ed need 6 pages of why it shouldn’t be allowed?? Then we’ll have someone complain that that’s not fair to his/her character design.

 

We can fix it by deleting or ignoring the rule saying that taking damage spoils your Recovery. FEWER words, not more!

 

See below:

 

13 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

Modify Taking a Recovery to simply be a full-phase action.  You can catch your breath on your DEX and later damage does not matter;

 

 

12 hours ago, cptpatriot said:

 

Unfortunately, some of those statements are in error.

• "I wait for Slope Hoke..." would be considered a Held Action and prevent you from taking a Recovery at Dex 1.
• "I wait for my teammate Way Fermi to act on DEX 3..." is also considered a Held Action.
• "Slope Hoke blocked me last phase..." is valid and you would have to wait until his action before you can do anything

Citation: 6E2 20, 1st Column

 

Uh, yes,  the held actions would prevent taking a Recovery at DEX 1 just exactly as an action taken in regular DEX order would. If I were trying to argue otherwise, I would be in error. I wasn't, so I'm not.

 

What the HECK made you think I was trying to say I can take an action in the phase and at the end of it still get a Recovery?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Recovering a palindromedary

 

[Hugh Neilson]

The rule about taking damage spoiling the recovery has been around since 1e.  As I recall, there was a suggested "half recovery" action, maybe in a Hero newsletter, that allowed you to maintain powers and DCV, and get half your REC, at the cost of a phase.

 

I think making "take a recovery" a full phase action with no other special rules would work - losing an action is a pretty steep cost y itself.  If that were to prove broadly unbalancing (specialty builds, as always, being GM oversight territory), add in "Half DCV" as any other maneuver that halves DCV.

 

It might encourage people occasionally catching their breath in combat, and would remove an orphan mechanic, neither of which are bad things.

 

Oh, and as I read Lucius' construct, the idea is that, when his DEX comes up, he decides his action for the phase.  If he decides to take a recovery, it does not start until DEX 1, so there is very little time to attack the character, and he won't lose DCV until then.  Could he use that zero phase action to shut off END using powers at normal DEX?  I think so, as he can't delay the zero phase without "acting to delay" at his normal DEX.  Presumably, he would not rely on Constant powers if building this construct.

[incrdbil]

So, can you take any recovery, including a post 12, if your are under a continuous attack?

[Greywind]

If you have taken a recovery, please put it back.

[dsatow]

My understanding of the rules is as follows:

 

On your phase in your segment, you can choose to take an action, get unstunned, or take a recovery.  If you are unconscious, you must take the recovery.  If you are awake and stunned, you must get unstunned.  The effects of the recovery happen at the bottom of the segment after any attacks (eg haymakers).

 

If you buy down your Dex to 1 for recoveries only (-/+0), and have a ludicrously high Dex otherwise, this is what would happen (again this is my interpretations of the rules as written).  At your highest Dex, you can declare an action.  As your action, you can declare that you are holding your action.  Upon declaring you are holding your action, you have just 'used' your action at that phase and you may not use the action for a recovery.  Aha you might say, you have a Dex of 1 for recoveries!  However, by the rules as written, after you declare holding your action you may not take a recovery until your next action.  So your 1 Dex doesn't matter.  

 

Ok, you say, I don't declare anything at my high Dex.  But per the rules you must default to one of the three: Take an action, get unstunned, or take a recovery on your phase.  Even if the action is only to hold it to a later time.  If you take a recovery at your high dex position, the CV effects will still affect you when you declared your action as normal.  The 1 Dex does not affect how your recovery works.

 

So what good is that 1 Dex?  Well, if you are unconscious, you must take a recovery which means that recovery takes place at Dex 1.  A person may still delay striking you until after your action per the rules of the delay.  So, the advantage is only if you are already unconscious.  

 

Again this is my interpretation of the rules.  Your mileage may vary with your GM or Steve Long.  If you get clarification from Steve, I'd like to hear it so post it in this forum or the 6ed questions forum.  Thanks!