Making Machines Go Haywire

[BoloOfEarth]

As mentioned in another thread, I'm updating the Destruction Company from High Tech Enemies, and have finally gotten to Live Wire.  One of his powers is the ability to occasionally make unshielded machines go haywire.  This is bought as:  Change Environment, 128 hex area: Causes all unshielded (rED of less than 5) electronic machinery to go haywire; O END; No Conscious Control, No Range.  Have to admit, I'm typically not a huge fan of Change Environment, and I don't see how this effect falls within any of the Combat Effects listed for that power.  (Granted, in 4E that power had a much looser definition.)  However, I don't really see any other power that jumps up and says, "Oooo!  Use me to do this!"

 

How would you suggest drawing this up?  Please keep in mind that this seems like a mainly non-combat / flavor power; I don't think it should be able to, say, render a PRIMUS assault team useless by disabling all their high-tech gear, but I'm fine with it messing with individual pieces of equipment and causing minor combat effects.

[BoloOfEarth]

Or am I overthinking this and should I just make it a very broad Change Environment?  For example, Change Environment (5 TK STR), Varying Combat Effects, AoE (256m Radius; +1 3/4), Varying Effect (Limited machinery haywire effects; +1/2), 0 END (+1/2); No Range (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-2).  And then handwave / wing it with the actual effects?  ("Joe, your IR goggles seem to be fritzing out, make a PER roll at -2.  Dana, your jetpack seems to be acting up, make a DEX roll at -1 to maintain control.")

[eepjr24]

Is this a 5e or 6e build?

 

If 6e, that is a very powerful effect you just bought. -6 to all INT and INT based rolls affecting machinery or things with electrical wiring. -25" of running, flight, swimming, etc that are machine based. I'd allow you to increase temperature by a level or two if there was significant machinery around that you could cause to rev up or cause to overheat. A few points of damage from electrical shorts or machinery grabbing people, etc. Conditionally on machines that could produce smoke or steam and noise, -4 to all Sight and hearing Perception rolls. Obviously not all at once and completely random? I would build a chart for it and roll every few phases.

 

- E 

[steriaca]

Perhaps an Area of effect, no range, moveable Mind Control, only vs machine class of mind, only to command a machine's operations, telepathic?

 Is in order?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I was the GM when I built this character as an NPC but I always liked it conceptually for a power:  Mind control vs body, not ego.  In other words, you make an object do anything it physically can do, controlling their physical structure rather than their mind.  Thus, a mindless thing can be compelled to do whatever it is able to do (like a radio picking up stations, a phone making calls, etc) even if it has no mind to affect.  

 

But what does "machines going haywire" mean?  Like Dresden's magical effect that makes machines break down when he's near?  Does it make things just not work as well as they used to?  Does it make them explode?  That's what you should target: the effect of the power.

[ScottishFox]

Change Environment vs. Movement can be very powerful.

 

One of my current players has a gravity well type of CE that reduces run speed by enough that most land-bound enemies are simply glued in place.  Unlike entangle, barrier, or TK there's no real mechanic to break-out.

 

I frequently have the enemies resorting to leaping after they waste a phase or two trying to move.

[BoloOfEarth]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

Is this a 5e or 6e build?

 

If 6e, that is a very powerful effect you just bought. -6 to all INT and INT based rolls affecting machinery or things with electrical wiring. -25" of running, flight, swimming, etc that are machine based. I'd allow you to increase temperature by a level or two if there was significant machinery around that you could cause to rev up or cause to overheat. A few points of damage from electrical shorts or machinery grabbing people, etc. Conditionally on machines that could produce smoke or steam and noise, -4 to all Sight and hearing Perception rolls. Obviously not all at once and completely random? I would build a chart for it and roll every few phases.

 

- E 

I'm talking 6E.

 

Yeah, you're probably right, 5 STR TK is probably too much.  That's 25 points of effect.  On the other hand, you would need a decent amount if you're going to spread it out for multiple smaller effects (e.g. -2 to all Sight PER, -4m Running, -2 DEX roll to control Flight, etc.)

 

Maybe go with 3 STR TK (15 points) instead?  Or just 2 STR (10 points)?

[BoloOfEarth]

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Perhaps an Area of effect, no range, moveable Mind Control, only vs machine class of mind, only to command a machine's operations, telepathic?

 Is in order?

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I was the GM when I built this character as an NPC but I always liked it conceptually for a power:  Mind control vs body, not ego.  In other words, you make an object do anything it physically can do, controlling their physical structure rather than their mind.  Thus, a mindless thing can be compelled to do whatever it is able to do (like a radio picking up stations, a phone making calls, etc) even if it has no mind to affect.  

 

But what does "machines going haywire" mean?  Like Dresden's magical effect that makes machines break down when he's near?  Does it make things just not work as well as they used to?  Does it make them explode?  That's what you should target: the effect of the power.

 

Yeah, I thought about the Mind Control route as well, but didn't like it because most of the equipment he'd be affecting have no EGO, or even INT, to compare the Mind Control effect to.  (Yeah, as GM I could simply handwave that.  However, I like to have a solid writeup and idea how to handle things if a player later decides he or she wants a similar power.)

 

Christopher, I really like your idea of Mind Control vs. BODY not EGO.  (Call that a +1/4 Advantage, as with Entangle vs. EGO not STR?)  That's a neat idea, which gets around the idea of machinery not having an EGO or even an INT to go off of.  How did you handle Foci (which get rPD / rED from the number of Active Points, but only 1 BODY per power on them)?  It seems that power would be overly powerful against mostly 1 BODY devices.

[eepjr24]

4 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

I'm talking 6E.

 

Yeah, you're probably right, 5 STR TK is probably too much.  That's 25 points of effect.  On the other hand, you would need a decent amount if you're going to spread it out for multiple smaller effects (e.g. -2 to all Sight PER, -4m Running, -2 DEX roll to control Flight, etc.)

 

Maybe go with 3 STR TK (15 points) instead?  Or just 2 STR (10 points)?

I think 3 STR is fine and enough to cause significant issues. I would definitely use Excel and create an effects chart. And I would add Long Lasting at the 1 or 5 minute level. 

 

For more niftyness I would buy the No Conscious Control at the -1 level. And buy him Accidental Change when under stress or attacked (common) at the 8- or 11- level to lose the ability to turn it off until he recovers. So he can turn it on at will, but has trouble turning it off when stressed or attacked (maybe ego roll at -2 or similar).

 

- E

[BoloOfEarth]

59 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

Change Environment vs. Movement can be very powerful.

 

One of my current players has a gravity well type of CE that reduces run speed by enough that most land-bound enemies are simply glued in place.  Unlike entangle, barrier, or TK there's no real mechanic to break-out.

 

I frequently have the enemies resorting to leaping after they waste a phase or two trying to move.

 

Conceptually, a high-STR character shouldn't be as bothered by that as a low-STR one.  (And conceptually, why wouldn't such a gravity well CE also affect Leaping?)

 

To quote from 6E1:176...

However, the GM may in his discretion rule that certain defenses, or actions by the affected character, constitute protection against a Change Environment’s effects. For example, having certain Enhanced Senses might act as a “defense” against gloom-based CEs that inhibit vision, having a certain amount of Power Defense might reduce or eliminate the effect of a single-target CE, and putting on snowshoes or spiked boots would protect a character against the DEX Roll penalty imposed by an ice sheet. As always, you should consider the special effects involved, common sense, and dramatic sense.

 

So I'd say that if a character is willing to expend extra END for using his/her STR, he could reduce the movement penalty by, say, 2m per 5 STR.  So a CE reducing Running by 16m could be overcome with, say, having 40+ STR (and spending the 4 END to exert that much STR while Running).

[eepjr24]

3 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Christopher, I really like your idea of Mind Control vs. BODY not EGO.  (Call that a +1/4 Advantage, as with Entangle vs. EGO not STR?)  That's a neat idea, which gets around the idea of machinery not having an EGO or even an INT to go off of.  How did you handle Foci (which get rPD / rED from the number of Active Points, but only 1 BODY per power on them)?  It seems that power would be overly powerful against mostly 1 BODY devices.

I would exclude any item that points was paid for, personally. I mean, smart gadgeteers have other defenses for their gadgets, but it seems overly powerful to me as well.

 

[BoloOfEarth]

9 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

I think 3 STR is fine and enough to cause significant issues. I would definitely use Excel and create an effects chart. And I would add Long Lasting at the 1 or 5 minute level. 

 

For more niftyness I would buy the No Conscious Control at the -1 level. And buy him Accidental Change when under stress or attacked (common) at the 8- or 11- level to lose the ability to turn it off until he recovers. So he can turn it on at will, but has trouble turning it off when stressed or attacked (maybe ego roll at -2 or similar).

 

- E

 

Interesting idea.  However, the character concept for Live Wire is he's semi-mindless after the accident that gave him his electrical powers, so I'm inclined to keep the power (however it's written up) at the -2 level of No Conscious Control (and then have it kick in outside of combat when it's dramatically appropriate, or maybe on an 8- roll in any given Phase of combat).  I don't see him as able to think through how to turn it on or off himself.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah telekinesis area effect with some sort of "uncontrolled" variant would work.

 

The Mind Control vs Body thing is a curious build because yeah, most gadgets are low body, making them easy to control and even leave no "memory" (trace) of having been manipulated.  Would it be a limitation or not?  I dunno.  Do more characters have higher ego than body in an average campaign or the other way around?  My guess would be that more people have really high ego than really high body: 23 ego for a mentalist isn't unreasonable but how many characters have you ever made with that high a body total?

[drunkonduty]

I just want to say I really love the Hi-Tech enemies source book. It's one of the ones I left behind many moves ago (don't worry, it went to a good home with another HERO system nerd) and I do mean to get a pdf copy some time.

[Doc Democracy]

I quite like the idea of a low level, damage over time, area effect transform which applies an increasingly lower activation roll on inanimate machinery (no personal foci, nothing with INT or EGO).  What that means is that things that would once do as they were unopposed to, do not do that, if the activation roll is missed by more than 5 then rather than just not doing what it is being asked to, it may exhibit alternative behaviour.

 

Doc

[Amorkca]

One of the recent Transformers movies, had a transform type attack where a steering wheel attacked a driver.  A Soda machine started attacking people by shooting its cans of pop at them; cell phones started acting like spiders...

 

Any of those ideas help?

[Duke Bushido]

On July 10, 2019 at 11:42 AM, ScottishFox said:

Change Environment vs. Movement can be very powerful.

 

One of my current players has a gravity well type of CE that reduces run speed by enough that most land-bound enemies are simply glued in place.  Unlike entangle, barrier, or TK there's no real mechanic to break-out.

 

I frequently have the enemies resorting to leaping after they waste a phase or two trying to move.

 

Here's a thing  (not a really good one, but one I'd like to share):

 

Yes; the since-5e rules allow us to all kinds of fun things with Change Environment beyond just SFX stuff.  I know: we always could, but now there are rules for it for those who don't want to make up their own, or who did and would still rather use "official" ones; either way is good.    But even with the new rules ("Spend this much for it to damage;" etc), I really prefer to apply an existing mechanic, as Bolo alludes to here:

 

 

On July 10, 2019 at 12:49 PM, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Conceptually, a high-STR character shouldn't be as bothered by that as a low-STR one.  (And conceptually, why wouldn't such a gravity well CE also affect Leaping?)

 

 

 

As it is something that has a direct effect on all players (as opposed to someone with a vulnerability to a particular special effect or generally non-problematic environment (comic book-wise, that is)), I personally would prefer to give it a specific mechanic (even if we didn't need it, it would be there to handle problem resolution).  Options in this case (again, for me)......   Gravity Well.....

 

I'm thinking (at the very least) X amount of STR in Telekinesis that pulls (or pushes; whatever works) the character "down" when he passes over / through this area.   That would mean that it would work on flyers, leapers, even martial artists.  (Sorry: that was a joke just for me, when I re-read looking for typos  )

 

If that's not what the player wants, then consider _mechanically_ modeling it as a stick entangle (does 6e still do Sticky?): run in here and get stuck.

 

IF that doesn't work, then a Drain Movement or even Drain SPD (I don't think the Drain: SPD is appropriate, personally, but it's not my character, and it will certainly hold someone still.   )

 

Consider a combination, if you must.  But the important thing-- again, to _me_ -- is to have a mechanic in place.  Why?  It prevents, as someone some time back and someone else recently put it rather amusingly, a clever player from creating an "I win" button.  So long as there is a mechanic to work against, there is a way to overcome-- or at the very least work around-- the problem.  Instead of becoming a "that sucks!  That really sucks!  I hate this so much!  How was this allowed to happen?!" moment for your players, it becomes a challenge: an obstacle that they have to figure out how to overcome.

 

 

I've noticed over the years in pretty much _any_ system, there is a certain kind of player who will root out the absolutes, and barring the presence of absolutes, find things with iffy, wonky, or no real mechanics and use those to create his own simulated absolutes.  Figuring out a mechanic-- even if it's just for you as the GM to use as opposed to something the player insists on-- goes a long, _long_ way toward preventing that, as well as preventing a lot of irritation on the part of the player who might accidentally end up caught up in that absolute.

 

 

Someone else (several, actually) posted the idea that "let them build it, so long as the understand that the villains will use it, too."

 

I find that assigning a mechanic to it prevents the need to do this.

 

 

Just my two cents worth, freely given, and worth every penny of the price, I'm sure.

 

 

Duke

 

[Beast]

On 7/10/2019 at 7:33 AM, BoloOfEarth said:

Or am I overthinking this and should I just make it a very broad Change Environment?  For example, Change Environment (5 TK STR), Varying Combat Effects, AoE (256m Radius; +1 3/4), Varying Effect (Limited machinery haywire effects; +1/2), 0 END (+1/2); No Range (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-2).  And then handwave / wing it with the actual effects?  ("Joe, your IR goggles seem to be fritzing out, make a PER roll at -2.  Dana, your jetpack seems to be acting up, make a DEX roll at -1 to maintain control.")

I would go with the 6e CE Stunning adder but go vs Int or an Int drain vs machines

[Tech]

14 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Here's a thing  (not a really good one, but one I'd like to share):

 

Yes; the since-5e rules allow us to all kinds of fun things with Change Environment beyond just SFX stuff.  I know: we always could, but now there are rules for it for those who don't want to make up their own, or who did and would still rather use "official" ones; either way is good.    But even with the new rules ("Spend this much for it to damage;" etc), I really prefer to apply an existing mechanic, as Bolo alludes to here:

 

 

 

 

As it is something that has a direct effect on all players (as opposed to someone with a vulnerability to a particular special effect or generally non-problematic environment (comic book-wise, that is)), I personally would prefer to give it a specific mechanic (even if we didn't need it, it would be there to handle problem resolution).  Options in this case (again, for me)......   Gravity Well.....

 

I'm thinking (at the very least) X amount of STR in Telekinesis that pulls (or pushes; whatever works) the character "down" when he passes over / through this area.   That would mean that it would work on flyers, leapers, even martial artists.  (Sorry: that was a joke just for me, when I re-read looking for typos  )

 

If that's not what the player wants, then consider _mechanically_ modeling it as a stick entangle (does 6e still do Sticky?): run in here and get stuck.

 

IF that doesn't work, then a Drain Movement or even Drain SPD (I don't think the Drain: SPD is appropriate, personally, but it's not my character, and it will certainly hold someone still.   )

 

Consider a combination, if you must.  But the important thing-- again, to _me_ -- is to have a mechanic in place.  Why?  It prevents, as someone some time back and someone else recently put it rather amusingly, a clever player from creating an "I win" button.  So long as there is a mechanic to work against, there is a way to overcome-- or at the very least work around-- the problem.  Instead of becoming a "that sucks!  That really sucks!  I hate this so much!  How was this allowed to happen?!" moment for your players, it becomes a challenge: an obstacle that they have to figure out how to overcome.

 

 

I've noticed over the years in pretty much _any_ system, there is a certain kind of player who will root out the absolutes, and barring the presence of absolutes, find things with iffy, wonky, or no real mechanics and use those to create his own simulated absolutes.  Figuring out a mechanic-- even if it's just for you as the GM to use as opposed to something the player insists on-- goes a long, _long_ way toward preventing that, as well as preventing a lot of irritation on the part of the player who might accidentally end up caught up in that absolute.

 

 

Someone else (several, actually) posted the idea that "let them build it, so long as the understand that the villains will use it, too."

 

I find that assigning a mechanic to it prevents the need to do this.

 

 

Just my two cents worth, freely given, and worth every penny of the price, I'm sure.

 

 

Duke

 

 

Duke, I've found that if a player wants a power concept bad enough, they will accept almost anything the GM will throw at them for their power (limitation-wise). I don't believe assigning a mechanic to it would change anything. That is, of course, my experience.

[Duke Bushido]

That's really my favorite part of these forums.  I know a lot of the conversations focus on coming to some sort of agreement on how things _should_ be, or verifying that Joe is doing things the same was Johnny, but personally, I like to see the things that are being done _differently_ from group to group.  I find it more inspirational, and I find it helps to get the wheels turning when I'm feeling stumped. 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

So when the OP said Haywire, in my mind it’s just machines going on and off at inappropriate times. Perhaps vending machines shooting soda cans at people or doers opening and closing rapidly. However nothing that really endangers anyone. So at pre-6th where basic CE would just describe this (with a large AoE) I would just buy for 6th 5 CP of CE (And not really define it per se) with appropriate size AoE and call it a day.