Swords in science fiction -- why?

[IndianaJoe3]

Some thoughts in the bat'leth (includes sparring).

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

I realize this is a fictional weapon from a fictional setting, but human v human, batleth versus sword, I see sword coming out on top more often than not, simply because of how humans have culturally-ingrained responses in melee combat.

 

I expect that Klingon v Klingon melee, armed with batleth or whatever, features a lot more forward pressing and aggressive corner thrust and even short slashes- each attempting to press an onslaught against their foe.  Granted, that is based on my personal "understanding" of a compltetly fictional culture.  I accept that I can't really think of a relatively safe way to spar that way, but I would really like to see it.

 

Now; for the record, I think the batleth is as goofy and cumbersome as anyone else does, but again-  I am thinking about based on what we humans do with weapons that are used entirely differently.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Scott Ruggels]

 The Batleth looks like it' uses a short staff fighting base, but using the thrust for the piercing.

 

[steriaca]

Gundam and other mecha in the Gundam Universe use beam sabers. Why? Because the universe has a weaponized particles which can be released by spaceships which disrupt radar and targeting systems. This, automatic lock on weapons do not work. Manual targeting systems like guns and energy swords (and the Zaku ultra-hot giant axe weapons) are unaffected. 

[tkdguy]

 

[pawsplay]

I realize that a lightsaber is not the focus of this discussion, but I think the "not causing explosive decompression" thing is valid with lightsabers. In Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, we see the blade deflects on a variety of objects, including crates and metal safety rails. I don't think anything short of an intentional blow is going to puncture a metal hull. A lightsaber can't even reliably cut through a phrik-metal staff, or Darth Vader's armor. The only time I recall seeing a lightsaber breaching a solid metal structure is Qui Gon cutting into the Nemoidian control room, and I'd say he is using his Force powers there.

 

The thing is, swords are just generally too long to be convenient, in a modern or sci-fi setting. Something like a machete or other large chopping blades do seem use. But there isn't much call to actually fence. Even if you were running low on ammo, in an open field, mostly relying on hand weapons, I'm not sure that a sword is necessarily preferable to a shovel or a rifle stock. During WWI, the preferred weapon was the trench raiding club, a bit of hard wood embedded with nails or cast-off metal. Essentially, a morningstar. Swords are for dueling. A martial weapon for open warfare is usually going to be a spear, mace, or axe. In the Japanese feudal era, samurai and other warriors probably killed more people with axes in open warfare than they did with katanas. Something that requires a keen blade is a prima donna of weapons, and vulnerable to breakage.

[Scott Ruggels]

Agreed.  Legend of the Galactic Heroes (First version), and Lensman, (books)  the preferred melee weapons were single handed axes. Spear, the preferred weapon of infantry in the open would be a liability in tight hallways inside spacegraft, and without gravity, you don't have the base of leverage to take advantage of a spear.  If you aren't expecting armored space suits, rock hammers would be a good melee weapo, with the spiked end making nice holes in Vacc suits. (Took Geology in College so we all got Rock hammers and collection bags.)

 

[Sundog]

The obvious one to me is the Cutlass. It was actually designed for close combat on shipboard, can chop almost as well as an axe, but still capable of thrusting, while being short enough for use in tight compartments.

 

[tkdguy]

Yeah, cutlasses work pretty well. IIRC the swords in Traveller are mainly cutlasses or combat knives.

[Old Man]

On 11/13/2023 at 1:32 PM, Sundog said:

The obvious one to me is the Cutlass. It was actually designed for close combat on shipboard, can chop almost as well as an axe, but still capable of thrusting, while being short enough for use in tight compartments.

 

 

The cutlass was even meant to be useful as a tool on board ship, to a degree, mainly for cutting lines and canvas.  As such they became less useful during the transition to steam, and so evolved into the purely ceremonial ornaments of today.

 

It's not hard to think of ways a cutlass might be useful in sf settings, especially in low fantasy where spacecraft are seemingly made of foil and wire.  Something that could cut through a bulkhead would be even usefuller--vibroblade, chainsword, maybe a row of angle grinder wheels...

[GDShore]

There is another sword in man's historical basket, that can be used. The Gladius, the weapon of the roman legionnaire. With a length of 60 cm. to 85 cm. overall, blade length of 22-25 cm. to a max of 55-60 cm. and a mass of .7 to 1 kg. with a width of 5 cm. to 7 cm. A versatile short sword, short enough to sit easily on the hip or ride in an over the shoulder sheath, can stab/thrust, hack/chop and block deflect. Its mass is less than either the machete or cutlass and better balanced as well. I've used all three, the cutlass has a slower return, the machete unwieldly on the thrust (works best on slash/chop). The versatility of the Gladius is why it changed very little over its 500 year (approximate) use. The British army considered issuing the Gladius in WW1 but chose instead an improved bayonet. 

[Scott Ruggels]

3 hours ago, GDShore said:

There is another sword in man's historical basket, that can be used. The Gladius, the weapon of the roman legionnaire. With a length of 60 cm. to 85 cm. overall, blade length of 22-25 cm. to a max of 55-60 cm. and a mass of .7 to 1 kg. with a width of 5 cm. to 7 cm. A versatile short sword, short enough to sit easily on the hip or ride in an over the shoulder sheath, can stab/thrust, hack/chop and block deflect. Its mass is less than either the machete or cutlass and better balanced as well. I've used all three, the cutlass has a slower return, the machete unwieldly on the thrust (works best on slash/chop). The versatility of the Gladius is why it changed very little over its 500 year (approximate) use. The British army considered issuing the Gladius in WW1 but chose instead an improved bayonet. 

 THe U.S. Army issued Gladii to Artiller troops from 1855, through th Civil War. You still run across them in gun shows, plus repros for Civil War Re-enactors.

[GDShore]

Thank you Scott, I did not know that sir.

[Rich McGee]

Aren't the dimensions of a gladius quite similar to LBB Traveller's generically-named "blade" weapon?  I know my group always thought of it as an equivalent of a short sword, or as we put it a "general-purpose sharp stabby thing."  As mentioned, some designs can't really be improved on much beyond using more advanced materials - at least not without improving on the lifeform using it as well.