Swords in science fiction -- why?

[Spence]

Cutlass. 

 

Developed in response to the need for a close combat sword in confined spaces.

 

Nothing else required.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Spence
spelling, I hate posting from phones

[archer]

On 9/21/2019 at 6:36 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Yes, in spite of my going to see it SEVEN TIMES!

 

 

 

I balanced that out by seeing it zero times at the box office but about twelve times on TV.

[Zeropoint]

The thing that keeps rolling around in my head regarding the use of swords on spaceships and such is this: how do you ensure that your enemies use them? If you decide to use swords for any of the plausible reasons that have come up in this thread, and your enemies decide that they don't care . . . you show up with swords, they show up with guns, and you either switch to guns or you lose.

[Sundog]

Except that inside about 10 feet/3 meters a blade is faster than a gun. A gun, even at point blank range, needs to be aimed to have a good chance of hitting the target, a blade does not, you just rely on muscle memory.

In broad, open areas guns win 100%. In close quarters (and most areas of most ships are gonna be cramped) the percentage advantage is much less.

On the other hand, it was rapidly discovered in WWI that long weapons (like bayonetted rifles) were much too long to use in trench warfare, leading to the development of trench spikes and sharpened entrenching tools. I would think that on a ship, with every square centimeter needing to be accounted for, cramped battle conditions would be even worse.

 

[Old Man]

12 hours ago, Sundog said:

Except that inside about 10 feet/3 meters a blade is faster than a gun. A gun, even at point blank range, needs to be aimed to have a good chance of hitting the target, a blade does not, you just rely on muscle memory.

 

That follows, although any setting with FTL tech ought to also have autonomous personal defense weaponry. 

[Old Man]

On 9/22/2019 at 3:16 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Old Man:

 

I always had a grievance with the necessity of a sword for decapitaion:

 

Given enough bullets and a sustained rate of fire, you can completely remove a head with a gun. 

 

Or a grenade. 

 

Or a weedwhacker. 

 

 

Why was the sword so important? 

 

It wasn't really; IIRC there were examples in the series of victories scored with axes, knives, or just gross overall damage to the body.  I suppose that immortals who can't surprise each other and spent most of their existence at a pre-industrial tech level would focus on training with the best available portable decapitation tool, which would be some kind of sword.  Logically, after 1870 it would make more sense to disable opponents with gunfire and then complete the decapitation with an axe or knife, but ultimately the entire point of the backstory is to justify swordfights between immortals.

[tkdguy]

Here's a more detailed explanation of swords in the Dune universe. The relevant section can be found from around 1:30 to 3:15.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

 

[Lord Liaden]

There is another tactical reason for bladed weapons in technological battle: silence. No report, no flare, no warning the comrades of your target. Perfect for stealth kills.

 

Of course the modern tools of war are more knives than swords. Then again, some large knives still in use in combat, like the Gurkha kukri, are practically short swords.

[tkdguy]

Star Hero 5th Edition has a sidebar on page 12 titled "Swords and Starships." It discusses why swords may be used in a science fiction setting. Most of them have been mentioned here. The same book includes energy blades on page 146 and details the Energy Blade Fencing style in page 44.

 

The Ultimate Martial Artist 5th Edition has a write-up of "Maashira," a weapon style developed by an alien race, on page 86.

 

 

[Cassandra]

 

In Joe Haldenman's 1974 novel The Forever War both humans and aliens developed a stasis field which prevented the use of technological weapons.  Both sides because using low tech weapons like pikes, javelins, and swords in the field instead.

[tkdguy]

Here's the TV Tropes entry on laser blades: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LaserBlade

[tkdguy]

Some random thoughts:

 

1. I am thinking of doing a sword & planet game, where the weapon technology (at least for personal weapons) are at around the World War 1 level. Although swords will be included, I especially want to add bayonet fighting. I'm still trying to decide whether to use western or eastern swordsmanship.

 

2. I have to work this sword into a fantasy or sci-fi campaign:

 

 

[Old Man]

On 12/12/2019 at 7:36 PM, tkdguy said:

Some random thoughts:

 

1. I am thinking of doing a sword & planet game, where the weapon technology (at least for personal weapons) are at around the World War 1 level. Although swords will be included, I especially want to add bayonet fighting. I'm still trying to decide whether to use western or eastern swordsmanship.

 

That would make an awesome dieselpunk campaign.  You could compromise on the east/west question by setting it in the equivalent of the Turkish theater.  And make aliens squishy so that blades are more effective against them than bullets.

 

 

Quote

 

2. I have to work this sword into a fantasy or sci-fi campaign:

 

 

 

I have to work that sword into my personal collection, which currently stands at zero swords.  Hey can you send me $1400?

[Chris Goodwin]

50 minutes ago, Old Man said:

I have to work that sword into my personal collection, which currently stands at zero swords.  Hey can you send me $1400?

 

For the low price of just two hundred 20 ounce lattes, or approximately 200 milliliters of printer ink, you too can help a neglected sword find a home...

[Scott Ruggels]

On 12/12/2019 at 9:36 PM, tkdguy said:

Some random thoughts:

 

1. I am thinking of doing a sword & planet game, where the weapon technology (at least for personal weapons) are at around the World War 1 level. Although swords will be included, I especially want to add bayonet fighting. I'm still trying to decide whether to use western or eastern swordsmanship.

 

2. I have to work this sword into a fantasy or sci-fi campaign:

 

 

 

The problem with Bayonets is that when attatched to rifles they are long annd unwieldy in close quarters (see previous arguments), but in the field, well bayonets can be more useful, with a lot of training.  Imperial Japan put a lot of emphasis on bayonet training, to the point of making a sport of it called Jyuken Jutsu.  after the US occupation the sport was revived as Jyukendo, and the popularity is growing. a friend in Australia joined a Dojo that teaches it. 

 

 

[tkdguy]

Western bayonet fighting is also a viable option. Looks like boxers would have an advantage here:

 

 

I don't know anything about Turkish swordsmanship; I was considering Polish saber techniques:

 

 

[pinecone]

On 9/25/2019 at 4:09 PM, Old Man said:

 

It wasn't really; IIRC there were examples in the series of victories scored with axes, knives, or just gross overall damage to the body.  I suppose that immortals who can't surprise each other and spent most of their existence at a pre-industrial tech level would focus on training with the best available portable decapitation tool, which would be some kind of sword.  Logically, after 1870 it would make more sense to disable opponents with gunfire and then complete the decapitation with an axe or knife, but ultimately the entire point of the backstory is to justify swordfights between immortals.

I think somewhere in there they said it was "dishonorable" to use a gun, and then go for the kill...maybe in the TV series?

[tkdguy]

2 hours ago, pinecone said:

I think somewhere in there they said it was "dishonorable" to use a gun, and then go for the kill...maybe in the TV series?

 

I think the tv show had something to that effect. It didn't stop a few immortals from cheating. 

[tkdguy]

How about vibroblades?

 

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

None of the blades in ROTJ were actually shown to vibrate IIRC. Maybe that was because the weapons couldn't be animated with 1983 effects technology, but the fact remains that we have little evidence of the actual existence of vibroblades in canon.

 

I'm also not clear how vibration at any level that can practically produced by imaginable power sources (which are seen in a lot of fiction and RPG settings) would actually be capable of the performance claimed for them, or even  be human-usable. If vibro-blades are effectively able to carve through any armor, they can also carve through a bulkhead or a spacecraft hull, making them far too dangerous to be used on a spacefaring vessel.

 

I imagine an actual vibroblade would be like a very fast saw. But while chainsaws and chainsaw variants are popular in the media, there really isn't a point to using a chainsaw in combat outside their intimidation factor. The same might well hold true of vibrobaldes -- they look and sound cool but are not nearly as useful as credited.

[tkdguy]

I remember reading a Han Solo story where a vibroblade was used as a saw. It was the knife version, not the sword version.

[Cassandra]

11 hours ago, tkdguy said:

I remember reading a Han Solo story where a vibroblade was used as a saw. It was the knife version, not the sword version.

 

Batman used one of those on the Scarecrow's van in The Dark Knight.

[Cassandra]

"Swords?  Only Girls fight with Swords these days!"  

 

The Duke of Wellington in Blackadder The Third

[tkdguy]

Someone on YouTube started a firestorm raving about the implausibility of women swordfighting in movies and TV. His rant was promptly answered by people with more knowledge and experience.