Human Torch

[Sicarius]

I am just learning the system and thinking about how to express the Human Torch -Johnny Storm version.  At first I thought of him as having elemental control with various powers but now I am thinking he would best be expressed with Multiform.  One just Johnny Storm the basically average human and then The Torch.  A living plasma expressed with his powers in an elemental control framework.  How do you simulate water dousing his flames until he dries himself off, usually by heating up. Is this a vulnerability.

Are his powers limited by 'only in hero ID' form?  Or is this not allowed when a hero is a multiform.  Would Captain Marvel, (Shazam!), be a multiform or would his powers be limited to only in hero ID?  It seems CM would almost defiantly be OIHID but not so sure about Johnny as his Strength, Dexterity and such really don't change.

There are so many choices I'm finding it a bit daunting.

Thanks for any help

[Asperion]

Since the Torch and Storm both have the same personality, I would say that his powers would all have the Only in Hero ID (OHID) limit. Which edition are you using? The fifth edition has elemental controls (ECs) while sixth edition has done away with ECs and replaced them with Unified Power (UP). The biggest difference is that ECs are a framework that combines multiple powers under one SFX while UP is a limit that must be taken on multiple powers if the SFX allows it (similar to the earlier 5e) but it can be placed into a framework, while ECs were the framework. 

 

Dealing with the problem with water, that never actually caused a problem for the person himself. As a result, I would make it more of a Limited Power (not when wet or fire retardant chem) on the base framework. The biggest problem with Vuln is that it affects the base char in some manner (such as causing damage) over removing the char's powers.

[unclevlad]

Multiform should largely be limited, IMO, to serious, extensive transformations.  It's not just physical, it's also mental.  So I agree with Asperion;  this is OIAID for 6th ed, only in hero form for 5th.  (Same thing...but it's not just 'hero' form.)

 

I'd probably go with a Vulnerability to water, which is expressed as a Suppress rather than taking damage.  Still rather awkward to define, as it takes a substantial amount of water.  EC vs. Unified...I'd just try to get things defined the way I like first, regardless of points.  That choice can be deferred.

 

Billy Batson to Cap Marvel *is* a Multiform, I believe.  There are mental changes aren't there?  At least in some versions.  Never read CM that I can recall, but of course the SHAZAM! schtick is well known.

[Sicarius]

I am using 4th ed. 😬  It seemed a bit less overwhelming than 5th or 6th but I do have all the books.  The Limited Power makes sense. 

[Sicarius]

4 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Billy Batson to Cap Marvel *is* a Multiform, I believe.  There are mental changes aren't there?  At least in some versions.  Never read CM that I can recall, but of course the SHAZAM! schtick is well known.

I think in the comics he became more Adult minded than the movie.  But seeing as how everything about his body and abilities changes I would think the multiform would make the most sense.  Otherwise I'm not sure how to express the gains in all the stats but I admit to having no practical experience with Hero.  Also, I'm not sure if he used a focus to change, like staff to hammer, or just a power word.  If it was a focus then I guess you could link all the powers to the activation of the focus?  Like Iron Mans armor.  Just from my reading of the manual it seems that anything which causes a temporary gain in stats across the board would be most easy to express with multiform but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

In the case of the Torch, is his fiery form a SFX which only uses END when he uses a power or would just being 'flamed on' consume END every pulse?

 

 

[unclevlad]

Well, he couldn't sustain the flame form indefinitely at the very beginning, but that pretty quickly changed.  His flame form isn't just SFX tho;  it's a damage shield too.  It has to be bought with Reduced Endurance...to 0 END.  At least that.  Probably the Flight too.  

Also note:  it's not Multiform because he can light up just parts.

 

Basic powers:

Fire Form:  Fire damage shield, x d6 Blast, No Range, AoE Surface

Flight:  linked to Fire Form;  also gets Leaves a Trail, but that's a +0.

Damage Negation (physical only), linked to Fire Form, not vs. objects highly resistant to heat

 

Not sure how I'd define the fire attacks...multipower or VPP.  Haven't read FF in *ages*...I'm not sure how much flexibility is there.  But, note that it's not dependent on being in fire form.  I would probably give it a -1/4 limitation because it really is brutally obvious...it's not like even, say, Cyclops' optic blast.  You see Johnny preparing to attack well in advance.

 

Not sure how I'd define the rest of his defenses;  they actually look pretty pathetic.  But that's comics, too.  So OK, Combat Luck, like 3 levels.  

 

The rest is pretty up in the air.

[JmOz]

Okay.  Captain Marvel is the poster child for OIHID.  He CAN be built with Multiform, but OIDHID is the normal way to go about it.  I do NOT agree that the change HAS to be mental for a multiform, lots of characters who can change into an animal will use multiform (say Changling/Beast boy for instance, though that is really a limited VPP)

 

Not the torch.  I would say you are looking at (in 4th edition terms)  an EC with Flight, Force Field, and Damage Shield, while having a MP of different "Tricks".  Believe it or not 5th and 6th has actually made this simpler in some ways (thought long winded at times)

 

I CANNOT stress this enough, the main thing to do is KEEP IT SIMPLE.  Many times you can get to the same destination in hero in multiple ways.  Find the way that "feels" right to YOU...

 

 

[Sicarius]

5 hours ago, JmOz said:

Okay.  Captain Marvel is the poster child for OIHID.

 

 

So would his change from child to adult would be some Transform power or just a SFX side effect of powers which grant characteristic boosts and growth?  

[Sicarius]

5 hours ago, JmOz said:

Not the torch.  I would say you are looking at (in 4th edition terms)  an EC with Flight, Force Field, and Damage Shield, while having a MP of different "Tricks". 

This makes good sense to me.  I did not think of breaking them into two different frameworks.

 

Would you give them both the limitation OIHID?  Seems to me the EC group would be OIHID but not the necessarily the multipower. 

 

Does the Torch need Instant Change as one of his powers or is he considered always in hero form just not always actively using a power, such as flaming body. 

 

Is his flaming body expressed a power or a SFX?

 

Sorry about all the questions but I think if i can get a handle on how to accurately express JS/Torch them I'll be a long way on understanding how to build with Hero. 

[HeroGM]

6th uses Unified Power instead of ECs

[Tech]

11 hours ago, Sicarius said:

I am using 4th ed. 😬  It seemed a bit less overwhelming than 5th or 6th but I do have all the books.  The Limited Power makes sense. 

 

If that's what you're comfortable with, stay with 4th edition and enjoy your gaming. I rarely touch 6th edition myself.

I would go with 'Only in Hero ID'. 

[Sicarius]

12 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Well, he couldn't sustain the flame form indefinitely at the very beginning, but that pretty quickly changed.  His flame form isn't just SFX tho;  it's a damage shield too.  It has to be bought with Reduced Endurance...to 0 END.  At least that.  Probably the Flight too.  

Also note:  it's not Multiform because he can light up just parts.

 

Basic powers:

Fire Form:  Fire damage shield, x d6 Blast, No Range, AoE Surface

Flight:  linked to Fire Form;  also gets Leaves a Trail, but that's a +0.

Damage Negation (physical only), linked to Fire Form, not vs. objects highly resistant to heat

 

Not sure how I'd define the fire attacks...multipower or VPP.  Haven't read FF in *ages*...I'm not sure how much flexibility is there.  But, note that it's not dependent on being in fire form.  I would probably give it a -1/4 limitation because it really is brutally obvious...it's not like even, say, Cyclops' optic blast.  You see Johnny preparing to attack well in advance.

 

Not sure how I'd define the rest of his defenses;  they actually look pretty pathetic.  But that's comics, too.  So OK, Combat Luck, like 3 levels.  

 

The rest is pretty up in the air.

Its interesting to see how different people interpret how to implement something. Lot of flavors. 

[JmOz]

3 hours ago, Sicarius said:

This makes good sense to me.  I did not think of breaking them into two different frameworks.

 

Would you give them both the limitation OIHID?  Seems to me the EC group would be OIHID but not the necessarily the multipower. 

 

Does the Torch need Instant Change as one of his powers or is he considered always in hero form just not always actively using a power, such as flaming body. 

 

Is his flaming body expressed a power or a SFX?

 

Sorry about all the questions but I think if i can get a handle on how to accurately express JS/Torch them I'll be a long way on understanding how to build with Hero. 

RE Captain MArvel/Shazam.  Yes the "adult" form is the Hero ID and basically a F/X of the powers

 

I would not build torch as an OIHID.  the EC represents his flaming form, while his other powers can be used  without FLAME ON.  also important to note, most times he can control what part of his body is flaming (so he can hold someone's hand and not burn them for instance)

[HeroGM]

1 hour ago, JmOz said:

RE Captain MArvel/Shazam.  Yes the "adult" form is the Hero ID and basically a F/X of the powers

 

 

I would have to debate that. There were times when Captain Marvel was a completely different person then Billy, I believe the Wizard said oncd that he was an older version of Billy. 

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, Sicarius said:

Its interesting to see how different people interpret how to implement something. Lot of flavors. 

 

To be expected, particularly with long-running characters.  The power presentations sometimes change considerably.  Plus, we're converting from the comics presentation to game mechanics.  THAT is always tricky because the comics are almost always *extremely* lax about details.  A character sheet can't be.  A little loose sometimes?  Yeah, but only a little, by comparison.

[JmOz]

MANY MANY years ago, there was a HERO named Sam Bell.  Never met the man, but he was a HUGE comic and Hero fan who did some insanely accurate write ups.  They wound up on a website called the Netbook of Heroes

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/

 

Here is his Human Torch II (Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Fore)

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Human_Torch-sb.txt

[Sicarius]

3 hours ago, JmOz said:

MANY MANY years ago, there was a HERO named Sam Bell.  Never met the man, but he was a HUGE comic and Hero fan who did some insanely accurate write ups.  They wound up on a website called the Netbook of Heroes

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/

 

Here is his Human Torch II (Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Fore)

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Human_Torch-sb.txt

Awesome!  Thank you and everyone for the thoughts and suggestions.

If Capt Marvel is not a multiform then I guess the same would be true of the Hulk.  That means I have no idea why a werewolf would be a multiform.

 

--Just checked out Sam Bell's writes up on a few characters.  Don't want to mess with these guys!

[clnicholsusa]

Either Captain Marvel or the Hulk may or may not be multiforms, depending on the preference of the player and the style of the GM. Even Johnny Storm could be a multiform (his flaming form retaining an accidental change for being soaked with water) if that's what is desired.

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, Sicarius said:

So would his change from child to adult would be some Transform power or just a SFX side effect of powers which grant characteristic boosts and growth?  

 

 

As he said, it's OIHID / OIAID.  Captain Marvel is that other ID.

 

Being straight forward, I always thought the Hulk was the poster child for multiform.  Captain Marvel is still Billy Batson-- wiser (sort of, depending on the writer and story line) because of his powers, but he's still Billy: all the memories, thoughts, motivations, etc--  he assumes another identity, complete with a shiny new body, but he's still Billy.

 

The Hulk-- well, until recent years, from what I understand (seriously: Captain Marvel was really the only comic book I ever knew when I was a kid.  Well, that, and Captain Canuck, but how often does _that_ come up on the board?) was two completely different people.

 

 

[Sicarius]

33 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

As he said, it's OIHID / OIAID.  Captain Marvel is that other ID.

 

Being straight forward, I always thought the Hulk was the poster child for multiform.  Captain Marvel is still Billy Batson-- wiser (sort of, depending on the writer and story line) because of his powers, but he's still Billy: all the memories, thoughts, motivations, etc--  he assumes another identity, complete with a shiny new body, but he's still Billy.

 

The Hulk-- well, until recent years, from what I understand (seriously: Captain Marvel was really the only comic book I ever knew when I was a kid.  Well, that, and Captain Canuck, but how often does _that_ come up on the board?) was two completely different people.

 

 

So if I get this right multiform should be basically Jekyll and Hyde or some other split/separate personality type rather than just an overlay of powers and/or changing of form.  In this case Dr. Don Blake/Thor would logically be multiform rather than OIHID / OIAID. 

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Sicarius said:

So if I get this right multiform should be basically Jekyll and Hyde or some other split/separate personality type rather than just an overlay of powers and/or changing of form.  In this case Dr. Don Blake/Thor would logically be multiform rather than OIHID / OIAID. 

 

Three things:

 

First, I am a _terrible_ person to ask about Multiform.  I understand how it works, and how to use it, but at the end of the day, I personally don't believe it ever really needed to exist.  I have theories (some _way_ less crazy than others) about how a lot of newer things came to be over the years, but absolutely none of that is important.  Suffice it to say that the "only in identity X" thing has been around since the beginning, and given the massive price discounting, etc, of Multiform compared to that, I just don't think it's a thing that even _needed_ to be.  It exists; feel free to use it if that's what you feel the best choice is.

 

Second:  No; you don't actually have to become an entirely different person to qualify for multiform.  To use the Human Torch example that has been discussed here a bit:  

 

It is conceivable that you can build a character with all kinds of flame powers-- that is, powers with Flame as a Special Effect, and use multiform.  Even if you wanted him to have some of his flame powers (I'm going to keep saying "Flame Powers" because I can't say "firepowers" with a straight face.  Sorry) while he was a normal human.  You simple have the "normal human" portion pay for the powers he can use as a normal human:  perhaps a Fire Blast or even Flight.  You can still build the Multiform specifically to represent the engulfed-in-flames version of him, which would have either more powerful versions of these same powers, additional powers not available in the normal human version, or both.  The sky's the limit.  Given the 1/5 costing, the freakin' lunar orbit is the limit.

 

it's going to really be between you and the GM and how he sees it working.  As you can see from this conversation, those of us who have been with this game a long, long time can't really agree on what is "appropriate" for Multiform.  In those cases: go with the rules.  Look for the absolute essence of the rules, not all the verbiage.  the Multiform rules (ignoring the outrageous cost discounting) boil down to "one or more powers that are available in one or more form that are not available in one or more other forms."  If you can lock yourself out of something and into something else, and if changing back locks you out of that something else again, then yes: you can build it with Multiform.

 

Like I said, go right to the basics of the rules.  I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're using 6e.

 

That being said:

 

 

Quote

A character with this Standard Power can change his original form into one or more other forms, each with its own abilities, personality, and Characteristics.

 

 

That's it.  You can change into one or more forms, each with it's own abilities, personality, and Characteristics.

 

Your Human Torch will have, if built with a Multiform, at lest one ability that locks in and out based on the form he is in.  It could be a Characteristic; it could be a Power; it could be a Skill.  

 

5e, if you were wondering, says exactly the same thing-- the first paragraph-- and little bit more-- were just lifted whole-cloth from 5e.

 

it is almost identical to the wording from 4e, save the change from 4e's "a character with this Special power can have several different forms, each with its own personality, Characteristics, and Powers. 

 

Multiform didn't exist in 3e-- at least, not in the core rules.

 

Weirdly, it didn't come from 4e.  It came from 2e (sort of).  It was presented in the supplemental book Champions III, which barely beat Champions 3e to press.  In 2e, the first sentence states "This power allows a character to have several different forms, each with it's own Characteristics, Powers, and Disadvantages."

 

The difference here?

 

Two editions later, the word "personality" was added.

 

is it important?

 

Depends on who you ask.  Those that maintain "you have to have a different personality or you can't use Multiform" will certainly find it important.  However, that means that Captain Marvel is _not_ using Multiform to switch from a child to the world's mightiest mortal: he has the same personality.  That's why he was chose to be Captain Marvel (not in the movie.  The kid in the movie is self-centered dink who _becomes_  a worthwhile person. )  I don't think it's terribly important because it says multi-_form_, and not "scizophrenia." 

 

Well for those who believe that the change to drop the word Disadvantages and replace it with the word Personality means something, then does not dropping the word Disadvantages also mean something?

 

Moreover, the word "can" is still in there.  So are we saying that "he _can_ have this," as in "he might want to do it this way," or, put another way:  "He _can_, but he might not."  That is, we are saying _can_ as opposed to _must_.

 

At the end of the day, the defining trait of Multiform is access to at least one thing that at least one other form locks you out of.

 

 

As far as "getting the logic" of OIHID versus Multiform?  Stop trying.  There is no logic to it at all-- the difference between "multiform" and "alternate ID."  _Something_ makes that ID "alternate," after all.  it might be abilities; it might be Characteristics; it might be Powers; it might be Personality; it might be Disadvantages.  Why is that "alternate" not an additional hundred pounds of muscle and a hokey accent?  Until Champions III was published, it _was_.

 

Now if you're just opinion shopping, here's mine:

 

Multiform exists because enough people didn't make an intuitive leap from Only in _hero_ identity to "only in _appropriate_ identity," as so were flummoxed as to just how they could create the Hulk.  The Hulk is billed, more or less, as  hero, but at the time Champs III was written, he was mostly running around the American Southwestern Desert beating up Army guys  (and running over to New York once a month to do an Avengers thing before  racing back to the desert before anyone caught on). 

 

Any justification for why Multiform is more or less appropriate than OIAID that I have ever come across or even come up with on my own (yes; I used to try) sounds so forced as to be just a little bit embarrassing to pretend I accept that there is a difference.  My final decision on that for my own games was that Multiform has no place in my games and is just a points grab to start out at higher levels of each "alternate ID" than are possible with the OIAID  (which, if we would read as "only in _appropriate_ ID," we could STOP HAVING TWO NAMES FOR THE EXACT SAME THING!   oh.  Sorry about that.  I didn't realize I wasn't just thinking that part....).

 

 

Honestly, we just had a remarkably good discussion on this vey subject-- Multiform, I mean-- not too terribly long ago.   If I stumble across the thread, I will be happy to link you to it.  There may be something there that will help you make up your mind.

 

 

For all other questions you might have of me, I respectfully refer you to the first answer in this response:  I am a _terrible_ person to ask about Multiform.   

 

 

[massey]

Build it however you want.  Don't let these guys tell you any different.

[JmOz]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Three things:

 

First, I am a _terrible_ person to ask about Multiform.  I understand how it works, and how to use it, but at the end of the day, I personally don't believe it ever really needed to exist.  I have theories (some _way_ less crazy than others) about how a lot of newer things came to be over the years, but absolutely none of that is important.  Suffice it to say that the "only in identity X" thing has been around since the beginning, and given the massive price discounting, etc, of Multiform compared to that, I just don't think it's a thing that even _needed_ to be.  It exists; feel free to use it if that's what you feel the best choice is.

 

Second:  No; you don't actually have to become an entirely different person to qualify for multiform.  To use the Human Torch example that has been discussed here a bit:  

 

It is conceivable that you can build a character with all kinds of flame powers-- that is, powers with Flame as a Special Effect, and use multiform.  Even if you wanted him to have some of his flame powers (I'm going to keep saying "Flame Powers" because I can't say "firepowers" with a straight face.  Sorry) while he was a normal human.  You simple have the "normal human" portion pay for the powers he can use as a normal human:  perhaps a Fire Blast or even Flight.  You can still build the Multiform specifically to represent the engulfed-in-flames version of him, which would have either more powerful versions of these same powers, additional powers not available in the normal human version, or both.  The sky's the limit.  Given the 1/5 costing, the freakin' lunar orbit is the limit.

 

it's going to really be between you and the GM and how he sees it working.  As you can see from this conversation, those of us who have been with this game a long, long time can't really agree on what is "appropriate" for Multiform.  In those cases: go with the rules.  Look for the absolute essence of the rules, not all the verbiage.  the Multiform rules (ignoring the outrageous cost discounting) boil down to "one or more powers that are available in one or more form that are not available in one or more other forms."  If you can lock yourself out of something and into something else, and if changing back locks you out of that something else again, then yes: you can build it with Multiform.

 

Like I said, go right to the basics of the rules.  I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're using 6e.

 

That being said:

 

 

 

 

That's it.  You can change into one or more forms, each with it's own abilities, personality, and Characteristics.

 

Your Human Torch will have, if built with a Multiform, at lest one ability that locks in and out based on the form he is in.  It could be a Characteristic; it could be a Power; it could be a Skill.  

 

5e, if you were wondering, says exactly the same thing-- the first paragraph-- and little bit more-- were just lifted whole-cloth from 5e.

 

it is almost identical to the wording from 4e, save the change from 4e's "a character with this Special power can have several different forms, each with its own personality, Characteristics, and Powers. 

 

Multiform didn't exist in 3e-- at least, not in the core rules.

 

Weirdly, it didn't come from 4e.  It came from 2e (sort of).  It was presented in the supplemental book Champions III, which barely beat Champions 3e to press.  In 2e, the first sentence states "This power allows a character to have several different forms, each with it's own Characteristics, Powers, and Disadvantages."

 

The difference here?

 

Two editions later, the word "personality" was added.

 

is it important?

 

Depends on who you ask.  Those that maintain "you have to have a different personality or you can't use Multiform" will certainly find it important.  However, that means that Captain Marvel is _not_ using Multiform to switch from a child to the world's mightiest mortal: he has the same personality.  That's why he was chose to be Captain Marvel (not in the movie.  The kid in the movie is self-centered dink who _becomes_  a worthwhile person. )  I don't think it's terribly important because it says multi-_form_, and not "scizophrenia." 

 

Well for those who believe that the change to drop the word Disadvantages and replace it with the word Personality means something, then does not dropping the word Disadvantages also mean something?

 

Moreover, the word "can" is still in there.  So are we saying that "he _can_ have this," as in "he might want to do it this way," or, put another way:  "He _can_, but he might not."  That is, we are saying _can_ as opposed to _must_.

 

At the end of the day, the defining trait of Multiform is access to at least one thing that at least one other form locks you out of.

 

 

As far as "getting the logic" of OIHID versus Multiform?  Stop trying.  There is no logic to it at all-- the difference between "multiform" and "alternate ID."  _Something_ makes that ID "alternate," after all.  it might be abilities; it might be Characteristics; it might be Powers; it might be Personality; it might be Disadvantages.  Why is that "alternate" not an additional hundred pounds of muscle and a hokey accent?  Until Champions III was published, it _was_.

 

Now if you're just opinion shopping, here's mine:

 

Multiform exists because enough people didn't make an intuitive leap from Only in _hero_ identity to "only in _appropriate_ identity," as so were flummoxed as to just how they could create the Hulk.  The Hulk is billed, more or less, as  hero, but at the time Champs III was written, he was mostly running around the American Southwestern Desert beating up Army guys  (and running over to New York once a month to do an Avengers thing before  racing back to the desert before anyone caught on). 

 

Any justification for why Multiform is more or less appropriate than OIAID that I have ever come across or even come up with on my own (yes; I used to try) sounds so forced as to be just a little bit embarrassing to pretend I accept that there is a difference.  My final decision on that for my own games was that Multiform has no place in my games and is just a points grab to start out at higher levels of each "alternate ID" than are possible with the OIAID  (which, if we would read as "only in _appropriate_ ID," we could STOP HAVING TWO NAMES FOR THE EXACT SAME THING!   oh.  Sorry about that.  I didn't realize I wasn't just thinking that part....).

 

 

Honestly, we just had a remarkably good discussion on this vey subject-- Multiform, I mean-- not too terribly long ago.   If I stumble across the thread, I will be happy to link you to it.  There may be something there that will help you make up your mind.

 

 

For all other questions you might have of me, I respectfully refer you to the first answer in this response:  I am a _terrible_ person to ask about Multiform.   

 

 

Point of order, Hulk had stopped being an avenger decades before Champions first edition came out...I think at the time he was actually working as a bouncer in Vegas...

[Greywind]

Hulk stopped being an Avenger shortly after becoming one and before Cap was deiced.

[JmOz]

Issue 3 of the title IIRC, early 60's.