5th Edition Renaissance?

[Mark Rand]

I didn't create San Angelo, Gold Rush Games did.  I just used it, and some additions to it that were created by some of the good folks here, in a couple of clubs I ran here.

[BigJackBrass]

It’s a long time since I last played Savage Worlds but something I recall finding very useful for that system were the regularly released “one sheet” (i.e. two sides) adventures. Brief scenarios in different genres with a consistent visual style and a concise but usable format. Now, Hero stat blocks might be a bit bulky for a two page adventure, but they can be cut down to the essentials. I reckon that four pages including text, sketch map if needed, stats and an illustration or two would work.

 

They’re not epics, not campaigns or detailed investigations, just solid adventures you can set up and run easily and quickly. An evening’s entertainment when you haven’t had time to prep, or something to show to a new player. Get a small library of those together along with some pre-gen characters and I reckon it would make the game look a lot less overwhelming.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That is basically what I have in mind for a Golden Age campaign book, instead of full text adventures, a quick summary and maps, NPCs, the setting, etc.

 

I think a few campaign books like that for various kinds of types would be a nice addition: silver age, espionage, street level, Dark Champions, epic adventures, etc

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, BigJackBrass said:

It’s a long time since I last played Savage Worlds but something I recall finding very useful for that system were the regularly released “one sheet” (i.e. two sides) adventures. Brief scenarios in different genres with a consistent visual style and a concise but usable format. Now, Hero stat blocks might be a bit bulky for a two page adventure, but they can be cut down to the essentials. I reckon that four pages including text, sketch map if needed, stats and an illustration or two would work.

 

They’re not epics, not campaigns or detailed investigations, just solid adventures you can set up and run easily and quickly. An evening’s entertainment when you haven’t had time to prep, or something to show to a new player. Get a small library of those together along with some pre-gen characters and I reckon it would make the game look a lot less overwhelming.

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

That is basically what I have in mind for a Golden Age campaign book, instead of full text adventures, a quick summary and maps, NPCs, the setting, etc.

 

I think a few campaign books like that for various kinds of types would be a nice addition: silver age, espionage, street level, Dark Champions, epic adventures, etc

 

 

I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with Scott Bennie's 5E Champions supplement, Villainy Amok, and if you have opinions of it? The book addresses several of the features being discussed here: a variety of classic superhero genre scenarios, presented in simplified form, with pregen NPCs and maps. Mind you, VA contains a great deal in addition: thorough discussion of how these types of scenarios are classically presented in comic books; detailed breakdown of the typical course of events, with permutations depending on what PCs do; multiple alternate options to customize the background and ultimate outcome of the scenario, to fit it better with a GM's purpose; random tables for events and developments for GMs who don't want to work out all the details themselves, or just want inspiration. In those regards it can still be considered within the classic Hero "toolkit" approach, although the included scenarios don't require that kit to be opened.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have not ever gotten a copy of Villainy Amok to look at, I'll have to check into that.

[SCUBA Hero]

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Honestly I don't think a new book is needed.  We have Champions Complete, we have Champions Universe.  We have the upcoming folios of different fake nations created for the CU.  A new book would crowd an already puzzling bookshelf (what do I buy to play Champions?  The Hero rules 1 and 2?  Champions?  Champions Complete?  Teen Champions?  Dark Champions? et al)

 

What's needed are playable, off the shelf adventures and campaigns designed to let GMs just jump right in.

 

Interesting idea.  So keep Champions Complete as the go-to ruleset - the character creation section clocks in at 118 pages - and 6E Champions and Champions Universe exist (as pdf's; books are out of stock) - I'm working away from home right now and don't have access to those books.  Use the saved space for more adventure and campaign stuff, plus discussion of where the toolkit settings are for this particular setting.  So buy CC, then the playable game (as Duke Bushido notes) book.  If it sells, produce more adventures and possibly other playable games in single books for other types of comic book types/eras.

 

The base idea here is to bring in new players, let them discover and enjoy Hero System, and hopefully branch out into more of it.

[SCUBA Hero]

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

We know that the ever-increasing complexity of HERO-- the thing I refer to as the love of the math over the actual playing-- is off-putting to a lot of players: it is the single most-common criticism of the system heard from non-HERO players.  It really only stings from V&V players, with the infinite charts....   

 

I've said this before and I stand behind it; character creation is complex, the actual play of the game is not.  As evidence, look at Champions Complete - the character creation rules are 118 pages, the combat rules are only 18 pages!  Okay, that's not entirely fair, as Actions and some other items are not in the combat section, but still!

 

Tangent:  Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0) unified a lot of the mechanics and put in a point-based character creation system.  It's a lot less charty, and a lot more like Hero System.

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

At any rate, I would like to suggest a _stripped down_ version of an existing location.  Some background, but less.  Some of the current situations, but less.  Some of the background characters, but less.  Some of the plot hooks, but fewer currently-happening plots-- something like the 4e books were (except Hudson City   ).   As Z said-- and I agree-- superheroes need the least amount of setting.  That's part of what puzzles me so much about the size of the Champions genre book (yes: I understand the required fan service to cover all the editions and follow the characters, etc, etc, bust _still_!  ).

 

Get that "Setting" down to somewhere between 100 and 150 pages, period.  Then start a campaign book-- right in the same volume.  Narrow down on a specific few locations in the city, and a specific few characters who are going to be involved and a small handful more that are _likely_ to become involved, and that's it!  No more.  More than enough for your adventure, but we don't need a full write-up of the mayor or her chauffeur's girlfriend or whatever). 

 

After thinking about it some more, I think having a stripped down location (Millenium City?  San Angelo?) is a good idea - new player, you like this city?  There's an entire existing book dedicated to it!

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

If the goal is to attract new people, then I feel it is absolutely imperative that we do not "sixth edition" or even "fifth edition" those write-ups.  By _all means_ use existing characters: use villains from existing enemies books; use random NPCs from whatever random NPC books might be out there, but _simplify_ the build.  If your power has more than two modifiers, re-write it until it doesn't.  If you don't have at least one power without any sort of modifier, re-imagine the character.  This is entirely legal in 6e, but a newbie wouldn't know it by checking out the published material.

 

I went back to Champions Complete and looked at the 6E Champions.  Only Kinetic has Powers with more than two Modifiers:  Super-Running (Megascale, Reduced Endurance, Only In Contact With A Surface) and Supersonic Finger-Snap (NND, No Range, Gestures).  Defender doesn't have any Powers without Modifiers, but his whole thing is that he's Iron Man a power armor hero and thus bought through OIF.

 

New thought:  maybe have two character sheets, build and play.  You don't need the points displayed on the playing sheet.  That saves a bunch of space.  When I run convention games, I have character sheets that state what the game effects are (example:  in a Pulp Hero scenario [Nazi Death Zombies of the Congo!, available on *this very website*!] the Great White Hunter character has an elephant rifle.  Player doesn't care about the build (or if he/she does, I have the build sheet available and can share it), player cares about, "Good range.  Hits *really* hard.  Has two shots.  Takes time to reload, so make those two shots count."

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

All Skills must be _broad_ Skills.  If your character is a Doctor in his secret ID, then he doesn't need skills in pathology, diagnostics, biology, microbiology, virology, pharmacology, business management, etc, etc-- he's a doctor; he knows "doctor stuff."    Don't get stupid with Perks.  Your doctor doesn't need "can write prescriptions" and "doesn't need to make reservations at a nice restaurant and "Authority figure."  He doesn't even _need_ "Medical License," but let it slip in because part of this project is teaching not just the use of the system, but that it can be a hell of a lot more simple than the last two rules sets would lead you to believe it is.

 

Yes, make it easy.  Champions Skills - Defender looks overly complicated to my eyes.  Sapphire and Kinetic could be simpler.

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Ultimately, I'd shoot for a book of between 250-300 pages, 350 _tops_-- to give both an useable setting, some character write-ups, an over-arcing campaign plot,  and three or four smaller adventures within that arc-- enough for four to six sessions, perhaps?-- to create a book with both a setting and a useable mini-campaign.

 

Then follow that thing up!  Follow it up with electronic adventures, if necessary, or do something akin to the Journal of the Travellers Aid Society-- and yes, I point to that publication instead of our beloved Adventurers Club because it was more than just a "here are some interesting articles and thoughts about the game and a couple of adventures," but because everything in it was canon, period.  Rules addendums, errata, adventures-- entire supplements!-- were printed in that magazine, and they were all canon.  As Traveller expanded and grew and republished, all of that was folded into the core materials.  (Granted: that would eventually become as problematic for Traveller as it did for HERO, but the point is that there was constant inexpensive support for the players even between "big" releases). Perhaps build the mini-magazine around a new scenario or adventure within the arc of the campaign, and put some interesting filler in the rest of it.  It doesn't have to be much more than the adventure, really.  Perhaps the adventure, maybe a couple of simplified additional NPCs, a "villain of the month" drawn from one of the enemies books-- whatever. The adventure and ten pages of fluff; keep it all digital to keep expenses down; subscribe to have it e-mailed to you.

 

When the last adventure-- the one that concludes the campaign-- is published, gear up to publish a paper copy of the entire campaign for either collectors of those who didn't get on the list or whatever.  Heck, publish the book halfway through the run of the magazine-- whatever works.

 

The launch directly into the next campaign-- either with a published book (in lieu of publishing the entire first adventure) or perhaps an over-sized e-mag that lays out the basis of the new campaign and includes enough for two or three sessions of the new story arc.  Publish-- in paper-- a 36 or 48-page saddle stitched (for those who don't know, this is the correct name for "stapled in the middle;" it hearkens back to when such small publications were actually sewn together using-- you guessed it: a saddle stitch.  ) mini-campaign (like in the setting / adventure book) that can be extended via regular adventures published in the e-mag.  When that's all done, repeat again.  Realistically, given the state of the American worker right now, I would think a quarterly publication with enough "adventure" to fill eight hours or so of table time would be more than enough.  Most of my groups can really only get together for two or three hours every couple of months these days; I don't know about you guys, of course.  You may be far luckier than us blue-collar types.

 

Good ideas here!

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

I agree with you.  Even today, I agree with you.  I feel like that about _every_ genre.  i will also say that it took a lot of time and some painful observations to see that I was wrong.  I didn't used to be wrong, but today's GMs-- DMs, whatever-- want exactly a prepackaged adventure with lore and colorful pictures and settings and probably maps; I don't know.  I used to love maps for battle areas and such, but I never got off on the "map of the city" or "the entire continent" or anything like that.  However, the new players _do_ get off on all that, and if there is any single marketing rule that I _do_ know, it's that it's really hard to sell a product that isn't something that your customer wants.

 

The entire purpose of this proposed product is to bring in new players.  Lower the barrier to entry.  How do we craft a product that does this?

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Right.  And that's another complaint heard against it:   you can see its wargame roots so clearly.

 

Now for me, that's not a problem, but in the words of a review someone posted a link to here a few days ago, Champions features a combat system that runs "like a very meticulous tax audit."  I know: every criticism of HERO's combat time dilation is met with "but it doesn't take that long!" or "not for me!" and so on, but facts is facts:  I can run through an entire meet, threaten, defend, return fire, defeat / retreat in Traveller in literally 1/6 of the time it takes to do that same situation in HERO.  part of it is the wargame roots, and part of it actually the part that allows HERO to do what other systems can't: simulate characters who are genuinely faster to react, faster to formulate actions and plans- than are other characters.  No other game I have ever played does this as well as Champions, and more than anything else-- more than points, or the fictional equality, or the 'get what you pay for,' the combat system is above all else the reason that I still stay.

 

But it _is_ slower than any other system I have ever played (excepting possibly Aftermath, and with the admission that I have never played Living Steel or Phoenix Command or anything else with that much-maligned system at the heart of it).  We've all got ways to speed it up, but ultimately there are just more steps than there are with any other game I can think of at the moment.  I won't pretend I have a perfect solution for this, either, but ideally a way must be found to either accelerate combat or to really sell the positive side of the combat system.  Currently, it's the one part of the system that really does make the game feel old.

 

 

I think "like a very meticulous tax audit" is an invalid criticism (however, it *is* a criticism and does need to be addressed).  I do agree that combat can and does take a long time; my group has had a combat or two where even we (who do enjoy both the system and superhero combat in general) were dragging.  But the actual play - "Okay Diamondback it's your turn." "I jump on the giant ape and punch it!"  "Okay it's the giant tiger's turn.  It swipes at Professor Polar."  The combat system *is* detailed (and IMO, simulates comic book battles very well) and I don't think that can be fundamentally changed without being not-the-Hero-System.  Some folks want less crunch, and Hero System will not appeal to them.  There are, of course, options to make combat more or less crunchy and these options are already discussed in existing books.

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I totally get what you're saying, but let's look at your list:

 

Champions Complete, Champions Universe, a folio of fake nations, The HERO rules 1, the HERO rules 2, Champions, Teen Champions, Dark Champions.

 

 

Which books on that list are actual complete and playable games?

 

Now personally, I think Champions Complete is-- and I have been proven to be in the minority there, but that is because it is as complete as was the very first Champions: no settings, no adventures, no nothing but rules.  It's all I need, but as has been pointed out, today's gamers seem to prefer having at least a framework of a setting and some sort of solid, ready-to-go adventure right off the bat.

 

Now you could by your entire list-- CC, CU, Folio, HSR1, HSR2, Champions, Teen Champions, and Dark Champions and still absolutely not have that.

 

If I wasn't collecting-- if I was buying because I really wanted to take a shot at playing this game-- I would be beyond livid to have shelled out the money that collection represents and discover that I still hadn't actually bought a game!  While this is all armchair quarterbacking, the goal is to create an actual single book with a game that is complete and ready by the standards of the modern gamer.

 

Lower the barrier to entry for new players.  Get new players in Hero System.  Live Long And Prosper.  I think a book that sets all of the toolkit options to a certain Supers genre and provides a setting and campaign will help do that.

 

Again, character creation is the most complex part of Hero System.  DND - make a first level character.  Okay, I either roll or point-buy my stats (depending on the DM), allot skill points, select feats, spend money on equipment, a bit of background... ready to go!  Level up?  Roll for hit points, allot new skill points,  new Feat (at certain levels), stat increase (at certain levels), maybe a new level-based ability... done!  Hero - I have these XPs, what to spend them on??? It's so open-ended.  For example, in our current Golden Age campaign my Speedster wanted to buy a Power straight out of The Ultimate Speedster - "Cant Hold Me!" - additional Strength only for resisting Grabs and Entangles.  The experienced GM looked at it and said, "Okay, but only +40 STR instead of +50 STR, as that is in line with the campaign power levels."   But how does a novice (to Hero System) GM know that?  Make the campaign power levels explicit.  Discuss them more than is currently done - "8D6 is agent-level, not too concerning to the Heros unless in large groups, 10D6 is under-powered but will do some STUN, 12D6 is average, 15D6 is a powerful attack that will Stun and possibly KO with one hit."  Delve into the math (which 6E1 and 6E2 already do to some extent, and it goes back to early editions - I don't have the books available right now to point out examples.  Talk about averages and standard deviations (although probably not actually using the term 'standard deviations').

 

I'm not saying make it as on-rails as DND progression.  But *make it easy* for the new GM.

 

[Duke Bushido]

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

I've said this before and I stand behind it; character creation is complex, the actual play of the game is not.

 

See?  

 

That is _precisely_ one of the things we need to overcome:  The myth that character creation is complicated-- or, more specifically, the myth that character creation _must_ be complicated.  And you are correct, of course: the samples given in CC aren't too bad (though some of the skills get extremely specific for superheroes, in my unprofessional opinion).  I should have been more clear:

 

I was referring to pulling villains and NPCs from the existing books of villains and NPCs:  make absolutely certain that there are some examples of just what you can do: advantages, limitations-- stuff like that.  But if it any one build has more than two modifiers, that's kind of playing directly into the crowd that talks about how complicated the process is.  I further suggested at least one power (or Talent, I suppose) with _no_ modifiers, just to show that this is completely valid.   As long-time fans, even if we aren't aware of it, we take a perverse pleasure in our mastery of the system, and knowingly or not, we do a lot of showboating with builds that throw in even the kitchen sink, just because we can make it work, and because it fits exactly into how we see Build X working.  First, it's not always necessary, even when it fits.  Secondly, it's just additional layers of "What the Hell is _that_?!"  for a new player or GM.  I am not saying "skip it;" I am saying simplify it just a bit: keep it short and sweet: two modifiers, and no more.   

 

Obviously, in the exit boilerplate, the works from which the cities and the NPCs are drawn can and _should_ be mentioned; I thought that went without saying, but just in case it didn't: that is the reason I suggested slimmed-down versions of official settings and official characters.  If newbies like this stuff, or feel they want more, they know just what to look for--- not that "Check out the store at HEROgamesdotcom" stuff, either.  Sure: we want that.  But instead try "the full Bay City sourcebook can be purchased directly from the store at HEROGamesdotcom," as well as can be "Crap Load of SuperVillains," from which the opponents in this adventure were pulled."   I think that's enough, rather than hitting them with "fall in love and buy it, and make sure you check out the entire store because you will absolutely love everything else, too!"  Or waxing overly fondly of these larger works:  if the reader likes what he sees, he knows where to go.  If he doesn't, there is nothing pressuring him or telling him he is wrong for not going and buying the larger works.  We don't have to push him to go to the entire store, either: when was the last time any of us browsed an online store of any stripe and didn't look around at least a little?

 

But yes:  simplify (but not necessarily make simple) the builds of existing characters from larger works.  Use a slimmed down version of an existing setting.  I mean, there is no reason _not_ to make this tied directly into items already available that offer richer, fuller material, right?  Who knows?  You might get lucky and sell one of the in-depth books, too.

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

As evidence, look at Champions Complete - the character creation rules are 118 pages, the combat rules are only 18 pages! 

 

And the first edition, the entire rules book was under sixty pages.  The second edition was eighty-two pages, and that included, again, _all_ the rules _and_ eight character sheets.   The rules have gotten optionally more complex, and we can't stop pushing that complexity as a great thing.  Again, I put it down to a long history of showboating, which lead to a culture of expectation, and here we are: using two powers to create Transfer, sort of, and insisting that the Martial Arts supplements are core rules.  Want to attract new players?  We have to break that habit.  They will be making their first characters.  Remember your first characters?  That's what we're shooting for-- or at least, that's what I am recommending.  No; the complexity we put into character building isn't all that much, at least not if you're used to it, but let's remember the years of addition, multiplication, and "Johnny has seven watermelons; Sara has nine oranges" we went through before we got to calculus.  Same sort of thing:  make it inviting; make it look _interesting_, but not overwhelming.

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

Tangent:  Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0) unified a lot of the mechanics and put in a point-based character creation system.  It's a lot less charty, and a lot more like Hero System.

 

Well of course they did!  Who _doesn't_ want to be like the HERO System?!   

 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

After thinking about it some more, I think having a stripped down location (Millenium City?  San Angelo?) is a good idea - new player, you like this city?  There's an entire existing book dedicated to it!

 

Yes; sorry.  I jumped that gun on that.  Oops. 

 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

New thought:  maybe have two character sheets, build and play.  You don't need the points displayed on the playing sheet. 

 

This is not the first time I've heard this idea floated, and I have to be completely honest when I say (and bear with me here; I'll get there in a second) that I just don't see the appeal or the need.

 

_However_  (see, if you were bearing with me, this is the payoff), I also admit that I have been playing the game since the beginning, and I know what everything on that sheet means, and I also admit that a new player isn't going to have that luxury.  Were I a new player staring at the typical builds of today's characters, I would probably just duck the duck off and end up rolling a d20, as even the character sheets look like textbooks anymore.     I am going to go one step further and openly admit to all you new people (the long-time guys will remember that I confess this every ten years or so), that I absolutely cannot read a character that isn't on a 2e sheet.  Seriously: there is so much abbreviation and summation and everything is just all crammed together and then glancing around to see what ties to what--- yuck!    I'm getting the hang of it, but even now: if I see a villain that really strikes my fancy, I have to grab a sheet of paper and re-write everything in the familiar layout to really appreciate (or realize that I don't appreciate) it.

 

And now to tie it all together:

 

If the goal is to attract and retain new players, we need those filled-in sheets.  We need those numbers and those power descriptions.  The players will all need examples just in case the day comes that they are ready to roll their own.  Further, with those numbers exposed, available to look at during play, it's a sort of visual aid for just what exactly all this does mean and how it interacts with everything else.   This is _exactly_ the reason I called for simplifying the builds, as well:  give them something that they can see and understand immediately (ooh!  Two Advantages!  So his power is better because of" or "an Advantage and a Limitation.  How is that going to work in play?"), yet not be so complex or hyper-abbreviated or tightly packed as make someone look at it and wonder "do I install this as a PDF or a calc file?"   

 

Yes: Hero Character sheets can get really crowded, and they can take up a lot of space.  Or they can be simplified just a bit and get the entire character on a half sheet (remember the old Enemies books?).  I submit that you can probably get three on a page if you opt for a group photo with the individuals named, and forgo the full-body shot, but I can also understand _not_ wanting to do that:  lots of art is better, I think.  There is no reason not to have the game effects and the build listed on the same sheet, if you keep the builds simple and don't try to fit it into a 4e or later two-inch "Powers" entry.

 

 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

The entire purpose of this proposed product is to bring in new players.  Lower the barrier to entry.  How do we craft a product that does this?

 

Brother, I got no idea.     But I think some of the things that have been hammered out in the last couple of relevant threads are great ideas, and worth trying.  All we need are talented people, who have lots of time, backed by fortunate people, who have lots of disposable income, and skilled people who love to do marketing.          other than that, we're golden!   HA!

 

 

 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

I think "like a very meticulous tax audit" is an invalid criticism (however, it *is* a criticism and does need to be addressed). 

 

Again, they weren't my words, but I don't think it's too terribly unfair.  Now before we start oiling the whips:

 

I, too, like the HERO combat system, but I also have to admit the comparison is not unfair, as HERO really does have the slowest (real time) combats of any game that I am aware of that is still being published.  I get _why_ it's slow, but it is the things that make it slow that actually appeal to me:  Range modifiers, motion modifiers, attack option modifiers, skill enhancements, reaction speeds, defenses that reduce damage, shock damage versus serious injury damage, and doing things is exhausting.  I love everything about it, but it _is_ a lot to keep up with, and doing so takes time.  Like all the other long-time GMs, I have policies and house rules in place to minimize lag, but it's not going to go away without fundamental changes, and frankly, I don't want those changes.    More than points buy, more than fictional equalities, more than any other part of the system, I love the combat system.  However, I cannot, if I am being completely honest, deny that it is about the slowest system still on the market.  You have to give a little to get a little, and I'm cool with that. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

There are, of course, options to make combat more or less crunchy and these options are already discussed in existing books.

 

There are, and by God, we absolutely, positively should _not_ include them!

 

Not because of any idea that "they have to earn this," but because lists of options upon options is precisely what killed HERO to begin with: this is what turned _away_ from being a game, and toward "here's a toolkit you can use to make a game!  All you need is time, patience, and a deep understanding of these fourteen-hundred pages.  Good luck!"

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

Make the campaign power levels explicit.  Discuss them more than is currently done -

 

 

 

Dude, I could populate another ten-page thread with nothing but rants about that single thing; I really could.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Stripped down play sheets is a big need.  Do you need the modifiers?  Yes, for the key ones (autofire, etc) but do you need the values of the modifiers?  No.  The GM needs the active cost but nobody needs the real cost on the sheet.  You need name of power, basic effects, END cost.  That's it.  The Hero Designer build can have all the crunchy bits.  Suddenly the character sheet is much less cluttered and needs not take up as much space.  

 

As for power levels, I agree.  I try to make it explicit for every adventure what point values and how many characters are needed.  This is a bit different than D&D, where you can just barf an arbitrary level range.  But you can do a pretty good job for Hero with something like "for up to 6 characters up up to 400 points each, totaling no more than 2000 combined."

 

Personally I think the 400 point total is excessive and bad for starting characters.  300-350 is more than enough to make a basic beginner. At 400 points you just start buying extra stuff because you have points to spend.  And as Aaron Allston and many others have pointed out: a 350 point character with 50 points of experience is very different from a 400 point base character.

 

Any game system that includes HOW to build the powers and abilities is by necessity going to be longer than one that just hands you the abilities.  Having someone cast fireball is fine, having the ability to create a fireball is another thing entirely.  Hero games cannot be reduced below a certain level of complexity.

[Duke Bushido]

14 hours ago, Mark Rand said:

I didn't create San Angelo, Gold Rush Games did.  I just used it, and some additions to it that were created by some of the good folks here, in a couple of clubs I ran here.

 

Thanks for the correction, Mark!

 

[Lord Liaden]

As a parallel to this supers discussion for the fantasy genre, Dean Shomshak mentioned on The Valdorian Age - Good, Bad or Meh? thread, a suggestion which I think has practical potential for the type of intro-level Hero book being discussed here, using part of Hero's Turakian Age setting, which of course was set up to be comfortably familiar to gamers used to D&D-ish worlds.

 

  

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

Mhorecia also has strong development potential. In addition to Tavrosel, it has a nice selection of fairly diverse countries, with various potentials for both hostility and cooperation, without forming blocs of simplistic Good and Evil. The inland Sea of Mhorec is especially valuable for, hm, entangling the countries around it whether they want it or not. There's enough here that I think Mhorecia doesn't really need the rest of Ambrethel: It could have made an entirely adequate setting book by itself.

 

Mhorecia could thus be the location for new adventures, with the rest of Ambrethel gradually brought into subsequent ones if sales warranted.

[Christopher R Taylor]

As far as I can tell I am the only person who has ever written any Fantasy Hero adventures since FH Battlegrounds came out in 2004

[Jhamin]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

But you can do a pretty good job for Hero with something like "for up to 6 characters up up to 400 points each, totaling no more than 2000 combined."

 

I would go further and say that there should be 3-4 well defined campaign rule sets (Street Hero, Superhero, Cosmic Hero, etc) defined in the rules.  Not guides, not suggestions, Hero endorsed benchmarks, and that adventures should say something like "For Comic Hero Characters"

 

Points are a bit arbitrary.  Its way more important that PCs don't bring 10d6 attacks into a game with enemies that average 35 PD/ED

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I would go further and say that there should be 3-4 well defined campaign rule sets (Street Hero, Superhero, Cosmic Hero, etc) defined in the rules.  Not guides, not suggestions, Hero endorsed benchmarks, and that adventures should say something like "For Comic Hero Characters"

 

I like that approach, although without them being clearly established in the rules it is tough to get GMs and Players to be aware of them.  Maybe they could be in the beginning of a few adventures to set the tone.  Or in the compilation of short adventure ideas, with a range of different power level adventures.

 

So how would they look, and what should these categories be?

 

The Champions 6th edition book (and Champions Complete) has this:

 

Superhero Type                Total Points          Matching Complications    Maximum Points Per Complication
Low-Powered                          300                               60                                             35
Standard                                 400                                75                                             40
High-Powered                         500                               75                                              40
Very High-Powered                 650                              100                                             50
Cosmically Powerful                750+                            100+                                          50+

 

Which honestly I don't think is very helpful for a lot of reasons.  It doesn't really break down the categories into useful groupings, the complications points don't need to go up or down, there's no justification or logic at all with limiting the number of points you can get from one complication, and the point values are too vast.  And as you point out: no information on active point levels or attack values, etc.  But that's just my opinions, I'm sure others have more input.

[IndianaJoe3]

17 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

The entire purpose of this proposed product is to bring in new players.  Lower the barrier to entry.  How do we craft a product that does this?

 

I'm noodling around with the idea of Champions Lite. This would be a free, limited version of the full rules. It would not have every Skill, Power, or Complication, but would have enough to let the players build straightforward characters and try the system out without spending any money, and without the more complicated rules to confuse them.

[Jhamin]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The Champions 6th edition book (and Champions Complete) has this:

 

 

Superhero Type                Total Points          Matching Complications    Maximum Points Per Complication
<<SNIP>>

 

Which honestly I don't think is very helpful for a lot of reasons.  It doesn't really break down the categories into useful groupings, the complications points don't need to go up or down, there's no justification or logic at all with limiting the number of points you can get from one complication, and the point values are too vast.  And as you point out: no information on active point levels or attack values, etc.  But that's just my opinions, I'm sure others have more input.

When I started my Ravenswood game I heavily cribbed from the recommended guidelines in Teen Champions and gave all my players this:

 

Teen Superhero
Base Points 300
Matching Complications: 60
In this Game all characters should take Social Complication: Secret Identity with values depending on who would care (Frequent/Major is the common value)
Everyone effectively has Social Limit: Minor, Under age 16 but gets no points for it (it’s a campaign standard)

 

Teen Characters should have:

Characteristics    10-30 average, exceptions if that high stat *is* your power.
Spd    4-7 (5 is average)
Combat Value    4-8
Standard Damage    6-14 DC (8 DC standard, anything over 10 DC should be a "special" that has barriers to use)
Active Points    40-60
Typical Skill Rolls    8-12
Def/rDef    10-18/4-8

 

Most characters should have 1 "main" power with any other powers being related.  The Main power should have a minimum of -1 in limits associated with it, at least for any power at or above 40 Active Points
Most characters should be capable of a main attack in the 7-8 DC range
In some cases a particular power that is unreliable or dangerous can go as high as 14 DC

Skill levels (combat or otherwise) require special character concepts

Teen Heroes do not get TF: Common Ground Vehicles or PS: Hobby as everyman skills but may buy them normally if their concept permits

Otherwise Teen Hero Everyman Skills are as follows:
Acting 8-
AK: Home Area 8-
Climbing 8-
Concealment 8-
Conversation 8-
Deduction 8-
Language: Native Idiomatic, Everyman, Literate
Persuasion 8-
Shadowing 8-
Stealth 8-

 

The Power skill represents a familiarity with the characters power that is usually not appropriate for Teen characters

 

In my mind, a discussion of this sort of Campaign Guidelines should be in the core rules and specific versions of it should be at the front of any setting. 

 

There should be a set of guidelines like this for the Champions Universe "default" of PCs living on Earth and dealing with Viper, baddies from the Enemies books, etc and any adventures that come out for the system that use "Champions" as the defaults need to be built around those guidelines.  (As opposed to "Dark Champions, Cosmic Champion, etc, that would also have sets of guidelines and might appear as the default on other adventures)

 

I know there sort of are guidelines like this now but they aren't explicit enough IMHO and way too many sample characters and "basic" supervillians ignore them

 

[SCUBA Hero]

On 2/20/2022 at 7:43 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Honestly I don't think a new book is needed.  We have Champions Complete, we have Champions Universe.  We have the upcoming folios of different fake nations created for the CU.  A new book would crowd an already puzzling bookshelf (what do I buy to play Champions?  The Hero rules 1 and 2?  Champions?  Champions Complete?  Teen Champions?  Dark Champions? et al)

 

While I do think that using Champions Complete as the rulebook is well worth considering, I disagree that it would 'crowd an already puzzling bookshelf' - okay, yes as a crowded virtual (pdf) bookshelf in the store... as a physical bookshelf, not so much.  CC has 31 copies in stock (will it be reprinted?   I don't know.).  Champions and CU are out of stock (will they be reprinted?).  6E1 and 6E2 are out of stock and will not be reprinted.  Champions Villains Vol 3 (solo Villains) has 337 copies in stock, Vols 1 and 2 are not even listed as physical copies out of stock (the pdf's are there).

 

Now I freely admit that as I am mumble mumble years old and remember when pdf's were not a thing, that perhaps I'm out of touch with what today's gamers want and a virtual bookshelf is fine.  But I do know that I can drive to my FLGS and see hardcopies of other RPGs on the shelves.  At one time, Hero System had a shelf as well.  Now, maybe I can find one or two books in the 50% off shelf.  For several years, not even that...

 

A physical copy of Western Hero is beside my PC as I type this...

 

On 2/20/2022 at 7:43 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

What's needed are playable, off the shelf adventures and campaigns designed to let GMs just jump right in.

 

Agreed.  Would a combined rulebook and campaign/adventure book sell and bring in new players better than using CC and adding a campaign/adventure book?  I don't know.

[Jhamin]

2 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

Would a combined rulebook and campaign/adventure book sell and bring in new players better than using CC and adding a campaign/adventure book?  I don't know.

 

I don't think we need to roll adventures into the main campaign book.

 

If you look at D&D, the king of RPGs and the thing that sets expectations for many newer gamers you have books for rules & character creation, a DM book, books of monsters, and adventures.  The Adventures require that you own the core rules, refers to stuff in the DM book & character creation book & the monster book and include writeups for any new monsters or items that are added.

 

I think it's fine to use Champions Complete to lay out the rules & basics of the Supers Genre, then have adventures that say "requires Champions Complete and Enemies Books 1 & 3", then dive into the adventure.  If you want to roll the whole thing into a super product you can.. but why reinvent the wheel?  

[SCUBA Hero]

Other thoughts:

 

Steve Jackson Games publishes an online annual stakeholders report:

 

Steve Jackson Games: Report to Stakeholders for 2021 (sjgames.com)

 

Some key excerpts:

• SJG has 36 full-time staff and contractors, plus a few part-timers.
• 2021 gross income was ~3.7 million, roughly $100,000 per person.
• The company shows a small loss in 2021, but this is somewhat misleading as Car Wars 6E is officially a 2022 release.
• Of particular note:  "GURPS On Demand. It has taken us a few years, but we're now at the point that our GURPS On Demand series offers over 100 titles as print-on-demand softcover books. By taking advantage of Amazon's print-on-demand tools, we can keep these books in print and make it much easier for GURPS players to get them . . . almost regardless of where they live! (Amazon prints as close to the delivery address as possible, so you don't have to spend too much on shipping.)"
• Yes, I am aware that the Munchkin franchise is the economic engine that powers SJG and allows Steve to do some of the things that he wants to do.

My main take-away here is, can Hero Games use Amazon's POD to get physical books back in print?  No, it's not the same as being able to go to your FLGS and see the books on the shelf, but it's a big step forward (IMHO) from pdf only.

[Duke Bushido]

Someone on this board once  mentioned that PS238 was just about as perfect a superhero game as has yet been cobbled from HERO.

 

I am not saying rip it off, though! 

 

no, really; I am not.   But I would suggest styling a settong / free campaign book along those lines.

 

my POV throughout this thread has been using CC as the Champions rule book, and then stripping out a light version of whatever fans of the setting feel to be the most "iconic" Champions city (I really dont think it is Millennium City, though.  I cant think of a singular so-popular-even-a-non-comic book-fan-has-heard-of-it city of super-science and high-tech wonder.)

 

A thin set of adventures that can be strung together and that are set (softly, in case the GM prefers to use them elsewhere) into this setting, featuring relatively simple version of extant NPCs-  the only thing really new here is the book itself, and of course, the adventures.  Everything would come from existing material, which will be (also softly) pointed out to the prospective GM.

 

 

[SCUBA Hero]

PS238 is great as a one-book playable supers game using Hero System.

Lucha Libre is great as a one-book playable wrestling game using Hero System.

 

However, both of those have limited appeal.

 

Widening Gyre is great as a one-book playable steampunk game using Hero System.

Narosia is great as a one-book playable fantasy game using Hero System.

Western Hero is great as a one-book playable western game using Hero System.

 

I'm not sure how well the first two have sold; Western Hero (from what I know) is selling well enough to justify the project.

 

Traveller Hero is great as a two-book playable Traveller skin using Hero System.

 

I don't know how well it sold, or if its demise was related to sales or royalty payments or IP/licensing concerns.

 

Supers have a broad appeal.  I'm trying to tap into that as the easiest/best way for Hero System to continue as a viable business (and yes, also because I like supers 😊 ).

[Jhamin]

35 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

Steve Jackson Games: Report to Stakeholders for 2021 (sjgames.com)

 

Some key excerpts:

 

Interesting that 12 of their top 15 products for 2022 are Munchkin, and two of the others are Zombie Dice. 

 

That aligns with rumors I've heard over the years that SJG is basically in the business of printing Munchkin and everything else is because Steve Jackson likes to make a new edition of his favorite 80s products every few years.

Man, it's rough selling RPGs......

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

While I do think that using Champions Complete as the rulebook is well worth considering, I disagree that it would 'crowd an already puzzling bookshelf' - okay, yes as a crowded virtual (pdf) bookshelf in the store... as a physical bookshelf, not so much.  CC has 31 copies in stock (will it be reprinted?   I don't know.).  Champions and CU are out of stock (will they be reprinted?).  6E1 and 6E2 are out of stock and will not be reprinted.  Champions Villains Vol 3 (solo Villains) has 337 copies in stock, Vols 1 and 2 are not even listed as physical copies out of stock (the pdf's are there).

 

Yeah were it up to be there would be books in print and at game stores.  The problem is it costs a lot to print books up like that.  They aren't horribly expensive per book, but you can't print just a couple.  You gotta print hundreds, even thousands and hope you can get them sold to stores.  Who then hope they sell to customers.  Which these days?  I dunno.

[SCUBA Hero]

5 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah were it up to be there would be books in print and at game stores.  The problem is it costs a lot to print books up like that.  They aren't horribly expensive per book, but you can't print just a couple.  You gotta print hundreds, even thousands and hope you can get them sold to stores.  Who then hope they sell to customers.  Which these days?  I dunno.

 

Understood.  Nonetheless, I can drive to my FLGS and see those books from other companies.

[Lord Liaden]

48 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

Supers have a broad appeal.  I'm trying to tap into that as the easiest/best way for Hero System to continue as a viable business (and yes, also because I like supers 😊 ).

 

I'm not sure how broad the appeal of supers is, as a role-playing game, vs other media. But it is easiest for Hero Games to tap into because they have so much existing material to draw from and repurpose.