Building Campaign Power Ranges

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK there has been some discussion in the 5th edition renaissance thread about this but I think it needs its own post.

 

When you pick up, say, a D&D modue it says on the cover or back text something like "for an adventure group 4th to 6th level".  Because D&D is designed with Character Levels, this makes design and designation of overall power level (and rewards) easy to categorize.  I have put out several adventure modules and in them I try to approximate the rough level of points from all characters combined for maximum applicability.  But its rough and not very helpful for many specifics in Hero.  Hero has no "levels" as we all know, which is a big advantage, but does require some more thought when balancing an adventure against character power becomes involved.

 

So, what are the power levels for Hero?  How do you do a quick and dirty approximation so a GM can pick up a book and go "this is the book for my group!"?

The Hero rules have a very basic range of point values in these categories:

 

Normals

• Standard
• Skilled
• Competent

Heroic

• Standard
• Powerful
• Very Powerful

Superheroic

• Low-Powered
• Standard
• High-Powered
• Very High-Powered
• Cosmically Powerful

 

The problem is that its too simple and not very descriptive.  What exactly is a low-powered campaign?  What is a Very Powerful Heroic character beyond a set of points?  How do they compare to known, existing examples in literature, movie, comic books, etc?  What would the Avengers MCU be in this scheme?  What about Daredevil from the Netflix series?

 

Further, what is the active point cap for this range of points?  Defenses?  Speed?  Etc

 

So this is what I think  we need to hash out and finalize for ease of use and explanation in future products.  As I see it this is what we need:

 

Clear, specific, descriptive categories:

  -Street Level Supers

  -Starting Superhero Group

  -Experienced Super Group, etc

Point ranges

Complication ranges

Details in each category beyond CP allotments:

  -DEX Max

  -Movement max

  -SPD max

  -Active Point Cap

  -Defenses Cap, etc

 

Remember, this is not for individual character creation in your campaign, it is descriptive for the purposes of balancing a published product against a type of character group so that GMs can see it and know what they are getting.

[assault]

A fair bit of that is in the books. Take what they say as a guide.

[vindeishi]

For reference, Hero System 6th Edition, Vol. 1, p.35 provides a characteristic range, speed range, CVs, active points, skill points/rolls, and normal/resistant defenses for the different point ranges.

[Christopher R Taylor]

What power range is Batman in Batman Begins?

The Justice League?

X-Men in Days of Future Passed?

Guardians of the Galaxy?

That's the kind of stuff we have to answer, not just "vague range" stat, stat, stat

 

You buy a new Champions adventure from Hero Games.  It says "For Street Level Supers"

What does that mean?

[Tjack]

52 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

What power range is Batman in Batman Begins?

The Justice League?

X-Men in Days of Future Passed?

Guardians of the Galaxy?

That's the kind of stuff we have to answer, not just "vague range" stat, stat, stat

 

You buy a new Champions adventure from Hero Games.  It says "For Street Level Supers"

What does that mean?

    First we’d have to figure out, which version of the Justice League?   Detroit street level or ‘70’s in the Satellite Defenders of the cosmos.

    What lineup of GotG? The original resistance unit or the ‘’90’s one with Firelord and Hollywood/Wonder Man and didn’t they have somebody using the Phoenix Force.

  I’m not trying to be my usual jackass here.  I’m just pointing out that it’s very easy to get these terms confused. As much as I’m generally a words and descriptions guy, I think that point levels are the only way to keep this all straight.

[Duke Bushido]

This is where my "balance and points costs" are meaningless as a comparison" speech comes into play. 

 

The short version is that it's more difficult than that:  I can build a six-hundred-point character that still gets his butt handed to him by Seeker.  Or Bulldozer.

 

 

It doesn't matter if you are using Real Points or Active Points, either.  In fact, I have found Active Points to be the least reliable measure of a Character's power or ability, simply because so very few Limitations affect them.  I could have a 60d6 Killing Attack, Area Effect, Radius, Personal immunity, and it's going to have a massive AP total.

 

Even if I can only use it once in my lifetime, and only at the exact center of the universe, and the last 200 people to have seen or spoken to me will all die.

 

I also know (so everyone can save all the trouble of pointing it out) that it would absolutely _suck_ to put on the back cover of an adventure as an enticement blurb, but personally, I usually compare SPD, CV, Def, and Dice in the most-frequently-used attack power, then look for any unusual SFX v SFX interactions that might sneak up on me.

 

 

Yes: I _wish_ there was some reliable way to say "these guys are equal" -- some sort of rating that we could use to compare my apples to your oranges--

 

 

And _NO_; that thing did _not_ work.  We all tried it; we tried it over twenty years ago, and we've tried all the tweaks and updates and homebrewed modifications to it, and it _still_ doesn't work, and I think we've all proven that to ourselves, yet we _still_ reference it at a useful tool.   I am asking with as much respect as I can muster:  please don't suggest it again.

 

 

[steriaca]

The problem is each campaign is different, with each GM setting his or her own maximums for character creation, having their own criteria for giving out xps, blah blah blah. We give guidelines like "For X Active Points in a single attack". Does it really have a meaning at all?

[vindeishi]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

What power range is Batman in Batman Begins?

The Justice League?

X-Men in Days of Future Passed?

Guardians of the Galaxy?

That's the kind of stuff we have to answer, not just "vague range" stat, stat, stat

 

You buy a new Champions adventure from Hero Games.  It says "For Street Level Supers"

What does that mean?

 

Even within the teams/titles mentioned, individual characters would have vastly different power levels.

 

D&D doesn't just specify character levels. It also locks down how spells work, how often you can use abilities, etc.  The designers have specified how the game works. As others have said, Hero is a toolbox to make your own game. For broad appeal and use, you would need to make sure everyone is playing the same game.  In addition to specifying specific characteristic values, I think you would also have to specify an approach to power building, among other things.  This was mentioned by others, so I will not dwell.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK I'll just work out something on my own and use it for the stuff I put out.

 

Have fun

[Grailknight]

The thing is we're talking about  company approved products to be marketed as the official campaign.

 

It just makes sense that there would be an overall editor that makes final company approvals.

 

We can get general guidelines for submissions but before they get the official stamp of approval and are sent to PDF/printer, they need to be vetted so they are consistent with those guidelines. There has to be a line and quality control editorial system in place.

 

Will this have problems? I can see authors not wanting too many changes to their creations and there is a danger of too much of the same old thing min each product. But this is the only way to consistency. Otherwise we will end up repeating the mistakes that led to Dr. D and Takofanes.

[Scott Ruggels]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK I'll just work out something on my own and use it for the stuff I put out.

 

Have fun

Whst I have found that works is just give a rough point total, and a flavor description of what the adventure is.  For a GM what I tended to do if the fight was too easy, was to add more minions, and to keep boss fights from ending too quick, was to give the boss damage reduction and high ECV or focused high mental defenses.

[archer]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:09 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK I'll just work out something on my own and use it for the stuff I put out.

 

Have fun

 

I'm insanely busy (and insane) so I'm not getting around to this forum very often, not to mention not having the time at this moment to give your question a ton of thought.

 

Rather than putting it out as an open question, you might have more luck roughing through some idea then posting it up for people to discuss and fine tune. People here are notorious for wanting to kibitz rather than think from scratch.  

 

(And/or asking anyone who seems interested to help you rough through an idea before posting it up for consideration at large.)

 

I think your question is something that needs to be addressed.

 

And if you (we, whoever) comes up with something likely, HERO might adopt that as part of their standards for writing a supplement and for how it's described to potential customers.

 

HERO: "We consider a normal superhero campaign to be(blah, blah, blah) so when writing for that your agents should be (---), peer opponents should be (---), and a boss should be something like (---). But for a low level superhero campaign it should be (---). For a high level campaign (---)."

 

 

I think it'd help to standardize writing by various authors enough to that a buyer isn't disappointed from buying something that's completely inappropriate for his needs.

 

D&D's got a worse product. But they've managed for decades to be able to sell their consumers something that's pretty much what the person is wanting to buy.

 

 

On 3/10/2022 at 5:40 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 

I also know (so everyone can save all the trouble of pointing it out) that it would absolutely _suck_ to put on the back cover of an adventure as an enticement blurb, but personally, I usually compare SPD, CV, Def, and Dice in the most-frequently-used attack power, then look for any unusual SFX v SFX interactions that might sneak up on me.

 

 

 

Most people are buying HERO products online these days rather than reading the back cover in a game store.

 

So it'd be pretty simple to put a "suggested level" section on the HERO website or on DriveThruRPG describing each product and printed on the inside of the book.

[assault]

Of course you could always use the 2e/3e guidelines. They work quite nicely, as long as you neutralize the extra dice you have to roll in 5e/6e.

[SCUBA Hero]

Christopher hits on an important topic here.  There is sort of a Superheroic Standard power level (more than just CPs) established by Champions and the published adventures and villains books going back to the 1980s.  Also note the power creep - the level used to be 50 AP / 10d6N, now it's 60 AM / 12d6N.

 

For example:

A 60 AP 12d6N main attack (with various 8d6N +1/2 attacks in a Multipower)

     *  This level is upgraded to 75 AP 15d6 for a higher-level (Lieutenant, but not Big Boss).  This does an average of 10.5 more STUN per hit, and an average hit now Stuns an average (non-Lieutenant) hero.

20-25 DEF and 10-23rDEF

SPD 5-7

Movement and Defense Powers at 0 END (so main END expenditure is for attacks)

Taken to low levels of negative STUN by two average-damage hits of their own main attack, but not quite Stunned by one average-damage hit.

 

The 6E1 guidelines are a good start, but too broad:  when was the last time you saw a 400/75 character with 3 or 10 SPD?  CV range 7-13:  13 hits 7 on 17-, 7 hits 13- on 5-. 

 

So more definition is useful, particularly for writers and newer GMs/players.  Particularly in how it affects combat.

 

6 hours ago, assault said:

Of course you could always use the 2e/3e guidelines. They work quite nicely, as long as you neutralize the extra dice you have to roll in 5e/6e.

 

I'll go back and look through those.  Any particular books you're thinking about?

[steriaca]

Ok...from my time starting with 4ed (Big Blue Book), I'm kinda use to characters with 60 Active Points cap at the begging of their careers. Which are of course 12d6 Normal Attack, 4d6 Killing Attack, and if I remember correctly aproxim 30 PD/30 ED. I'm quite sure about the attacks, but not the defense numbers.

[SCUBA Hero]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:52 PM, Grailknight said:

The thing is we're talking about  company approved products to be marketed as the official campaign.

 

It just makes sense that there would be an overall editor that makes final company approvals.

 

We can get general guidelines for submissions but before they get the official stamp of approval and are sent to PDF/printer, they need to be vetted so they are consistent with those guidelines. There has to be a line and quality control editorial system in place.

 

Will this have problems? I can see authors not wanting too many changes to their creations and there is a danger of too much of the same old thing min each product. But this is the only way to consistency. Otherwise we will end up repeating the mistakes that led to Dr. D and Takofanes.

 

This as well! 👍

[assault]

6 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

I'll go back and look through those.  Any particular books you're thinking about?

 

The actual 2e and 3e rulebooks had the guidelines I was thinking of. They still hold up pretty well, although they would need to extended to cover the previously figured characteristics.

 

--- Stupid reply merging ---

 

On 3/11/2022 at 10:52 AM, Grailknight said:

It just makes sense that there would be an overall editor that makes final company approvals.

 

We can get general guidelines for submissions but before they get the official stamp of approval and are sent to PDF/printer, they need to be vetted so they are consistent with those guidelines. There has to be a line and quality control editorial system in place.

 

Unfortunately, Hero Games is pretty much a one person operation these days.

[SCUBA Hero]

I see them:  both under Notes On Playing -> Reasonable Characters, page 71 in 2E and page 96 in 3E.  The same numbers as well (except from having another 25 CP in 3E).  Thanks!

 

Attacks: 40-60 points.  Here's the original standard of 10d6N attacks, since upped to 12d6.  This is backed up by the example characters; 2E Mechanon has 12d6 EB while 3E Mechanon has a 75 point Multipower, but with a 12d6 EB at 1/2 END. Main attack in the BBB is also 12d6EB at 1/2 END.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, assault said:

 

Unfortunately, Hero Games is pretty much a one person operation these days.

 

Yes, What are we talking about here to start? One, perhaps two modules or books per month to review(not write) and correspond with the author over. If successful, the workforce can expand, if not it won't be necessary.

[steriaca]

One nickname of Hero is "the cockroach of gaming". There were many a time it looked like Hero was dead, but like a cockroach it is hard to kill.

 

...not impossible, mind you. Just hard.

[archer]

20 hours ago, steriaca said:

One nickname of Hero is "the cockroach of gaming". There were many a time it looked like Hero was dead, but like a cockroach it is hard to kill.

 

...not impossible, mind you. Just hard.

 

I fully expect that in any Gamma World campaign that somewhere in the world there'll be a HERO games office still faithfully putting out one or two supplements per year.

[Steve]

For power levels, I tend to follow Scott Bennie’s setup in Gestalt: The Hero Within which breaks down power levels into broad categories (novice, experienced, respected, etc) and then assigns maximums for everything within those categories from Damage Classes and Active Points all the way to defenses, DEX and CV using a character’s SPD as the control factor.

 

I highly recommend it.

[LoneWolf]

The Idea of power levels are a legacy of D&D and video games, and do not really work well in the Hero system.  In D&D and it works because the game is a level-based game that is narrowly constrained.  Trying to measure the power level of a hero character is like trying to measure the temperature of a sound. Even if you manage to create a rating system will it provide any useful information?  In D&D and over level-based games “Power Level” is a way to make sure that the product is suitable for the characters being run.  When the module says it is a low-level adventure you know that your 16th level sorcerer is not appropriate.  Hero System is a lot more complex, and its ratings are going to have to be equally complex.

 

Instead of trying to figure “Power Levels” what you need to do is to start thinking in terms of campaign structure.  Most games I have been in the GM (or the group) decide on caps of various aspects of the character.  This usually includes but is not limited to things like DEX, SPD, CV damage classes, defenses and a few other things.  We usually add a short description of the campaign to expand that out. and to clarify why some of the restrictions are there.  In one game the GM wanted guns to be a threat to the characters so the DEF especially resistant were capped lower than normal.  The GM also wanted to limit the damage the characters could do so the DC limits were also reduced.  The campaign focused a lot on investigation, so skills were more useful than in many campaigns.  Combat powers were more restrained, but other powers were not. Many of the characters had out of combat abilities that outstripped characters that cost several hundred points more.  Instead of using the label low powered we used street level.

 

A more useful system would be to define campaigns and give them a label instead of a level.  
 

[Jhamin]

Wow guys.. this is super anti-useful.  The original ask is for some example power levels that can be used in published settings.

"my group and I eyeball it" doesn't work for published works.

 

I've posed this before but this is what I use for my Ravenswood games:
 

_______________________________________

Teen Heros:

Base Points 300
Matching Complications: 60

 

Characteristics    10-30
Spd    4-7 (5 is average)
Combat Value    4-8 ( 10 including Skill Levels)
Standard Damage    6-14 DC (8 DC standard)
Active Points    40-60
Typical Skill Rolls    8-12
Def/rDef    10-18/4-8

In this Game all characters should take Social Complication: Secret Identity with values depending on who would care (Frequent/Major is the common value)
Everyone effectively has Social Limit: Minor, Under age 16 but gets no points for it (it’s a campaign standard)

 

Most characters should have 1 "main" power with any other powers being related.  

The Main power should have a total of -1 in limits associated with it, at least for any power at or above 40 Active Points
Most characters should be capable of a main attack in the 7-8 DC range
In some cases a particular power that is unreliable or dangerous can go as high as 14 DC

 

Skill levels (combat or otherwise) require special character concepts

Teen Heroes do not get TF: Common Ground Vehicles or PS: Hobby as everyman skills
Otherwise Teen Hero Everyman Skills are as follows:
Acting 8-
AK: Home Area 8-
Climbing 8-
Concealment 8-
Conversation 8-
Deduction 8-
Language: Native Idiomatic, Everyman, Literate
Persuasion 8-
Shadowing 8-
Stealth 8-

The Power skill represents a familiarity with the characters power that is usually not appropriate for Teen characters

_______________________________________

 

 

Adult Heroes in the game (were any available as PCs would use the following:

_______________________________________

Teen Heroes:

Base Points 400
Matching Complications: 75

 

Characteristics    10-40
Spd    5-8 (6 is average)
Combat Value    6-10
Standard Damage    10-14 DC (12 DC standard)
Active Points    60-70
Typical Skill Rolls    11-14
Def/rDef    20-28/8-20 (Def 24 standard)

Characters with High speed and/or high Combat values should have lower attacks & defenses, conversely powerful attacks & defenses should be associated with lower speeds.

 

 

Everyman Skills are as follows:
Acting 8-
AK: Home Area 8-
Climbing 8-
Concealment 8-
Conversation 8-
Deduction 8-
Language: Native Idiomatic, Everyman, Literate
Persuasion 8-

PS: Hobby
Shadowing 8-

TF: Common Ground Vehicles
Stealth 8-

_______________________________________

[Joe Walsh]

I normally run a modified 4e. Long ago I put together a set of templates I use for generating a document on campaign power levels.

 

It's all in a spreadsheet file with multiple sheets and doesn't copy/paste to here really great, but I'll give it a go. (IIRC, this all started in AppleWorks on an Apple //c.)

 

(Sorry for the spurious extra boldface stuff in Secondary Attack, Defenses, and Movement; they're not that way in the original and I can't un-bold them here for some reason.)

 

For brevity, I won't include all the Archetypes (packages/templates) unless someone wants them. A representative sampling of Archetypes (packages/templates) is in the post following this one.

 

Again, all of this is just a template. It would be used as the basis for what is produced for a specific campaign.

 

HERO System Character Building Guidelines
Character Concept
Think of a character you’d like to play. Jot down what they can do well, what drives them, and what causes them trouble.
Characteristics
Begin with an appropriate Archetype, copying it to a character sheet along with the Base Points.
Modify the Characteristic values as desired, using the Character Point costs as shown on the character sheet. However, don’t exceed the values in the column to the right of your Archetype in the HERO System Campaign Limits table.
Skills
First, copy the free Everyman Skills to your character sheet.
Then choose Career and/or Species Packages and apply the listed Skills and Disadvantages.
Finally, round out the character with additional Skills that are appropriate to the character concept.
Skills that are important for the character concept should be bought to around the average Skill Rating for the Archetype, as shown in the HERO System Campaign Limits table.
Skill Levels can be purchased to convey broad competency.
Combat Skill Levels can be bought to convey combat training and/or experience (but keep in mind the campaign limit on CV mods for the archetype).
Perks
Buy any Perks appropriate to the character concept.
Talents (Heroes and Superheroes only)
Buy any Talents appropriate to the character concept.
Powers (Superheroes only)
Every superhero should at least have two different attacks, a defense, and a movement ability.
Primary Attack Power: Choose a primary attack and buy it to 50 Active Points.
Secondary Attack Power: Buy 20 Active Points of Drain, Entangle, Flash, Martial Arts (Skill), NND, or some other secondary attack.
Defenses: Boost PD and ED to around 20 total each by buying Armor, Force Field, or Force Wall. Consider Flash Defense.
Movement: Buy 20 Active Points of Flight, Gliding, Running, Superleap, Swinging, or Tunneling.
Disadvantages
Choose Disadvantages that reflect your character concept in order to further define the character in game terms and to signal to the GM what types of stories you’d like for your character. Keep the Max Disadvantage Points for the Archetype in mind.
Review and Adjust
Look over your character, and make any changes desired to bring it in line with your concept. If there are a few points left over, consider spending them on small Characteristic tweaks, new Skills, or boosted Skills.
Equipment (Normals and Heroes only)
Buy any equipment that makes sense for the character concept.     HERO System Campaign Limits                   Average Values for… Max   Average Notable Skilled Competent Hero Superhero Starting Base Points -25 0 25 50 100 175 175 Max Disad Points 25 25 25 50 50 75 75 STRength 8 10 13 13 18 23 50 DEXterity 8 10 11 14 17 20 27 CONstitution 8 10 13 13 18 23 30 BODY 8 10 10 11 12 12 15 INTelligence 8 10 13 13 18 18 28 EGO 8 10 10 11 11 11 28 PREsence 8 10 10 13 13 18 28 COMeliness 8 10 10 10 10 10 28 Physical Defense* 2 2 4 6 8 10 12 Energy Defense* 2 2 3 6 8 10 12 SPD 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 RECovery 4 4 6 6 8 10 16 ENDurance 16 20 26 26 36 46 60 STUN 16 20 24 25 30 36 55 Running 5 6 6 7 7 8 N/A Char. Cost -25 0 25 45 85 125 253 Max CV Mods 0 0 0 1 2 3 3 Max Total CV 3 3 4 6 8 10 10 Avg. Attack Points 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 * Combat rPD/rED 2 2 4 6 8 10 12 Skill Rating: 11 11 12 12 13 13 15