Starting Spider-Man = Teen Champion?

[Steve]

When Peter Parker first put on the mask, he was a kid in high school. When he was just starting out would he be considered a “Teen Champion” and built accordingly? Or was he a full superhero right out of the starting gate?

[Mark Rand]

My opinion is a "Teen Champion".

[Lord Liaden]

I agree. At the start of his career, Spidey had trouble fighting opponents who were really just exceptional humans, e.g. the Enforcers, Mysterio, the Kingpin, Man-Mountain Marko.

[Grailknight]

Somewhere in between.

 

He had the strength and agility to dominate those normal foes but was far more conscious of hurting them than they were of him.

 

Ultimate Spider-Man didn't want to go through the years of character progression and stressed the difference between him and normals much faster. He wasn't really more powerful but they didn't want to tell the same stories, so the difference was highlighted.

 

[Beast]

he works as a teen(300pts)

and normal super (400pts+)
or as a veteran(500+)
it really just depends on the game

[Hugh Neilson]

As LL says, read the early stories.  He has trouble with enemies including:

 

 - an old man with a flying suit;

 - a pudgy scientist with robotic arms;

 - a cowboy, a bulky thug and a midget who knows martial arts.

 

Just off the top.

 

If you write Spidey more powerful, some enemies can be scaled up, but others don't make as much sense scaled up to match SuperSpidey.

[LoneWolf]

In the early comics all the super heroes fought against fairly weak foes.  A lot of the early supervillains used gadgets instead of having superpowers.  They also tended to be one trick ponies.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

That is my favorite type of Champions to be honest, even if players prefer to be more powerful.  The problem is that experience points necessarily result in a growth in power and then a growth in the power of the enemies to create a challenge.  I had several players who just didn't care about experience at all, and I think I would like most games if they were more static in terms of character points.

[Lord Liaden]

33 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

In the early comics all the super heroes fought against fairly weak foes.  A lot of the early supervillains used gadgets instead of having superpowers.  They also tended to be one trick ponies.  

 

Early Marvel seemed to go for more mortal superheroes, at a time when Superman was pushing planets. But both companies have cycled up and down over the years.

[GDShore]

When I ran my champions campaign, a weekend where someone earned more than "2" points was a big weekend. I've always been somewhat of a miser.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

That is my favorite type of Champions to be honest, even if players prefer to be more powerful.  The problem is that experience points necessarily result in a growth in power and then a growth in the power of the enemies to create a challenge.  I had several players who just didn't care about experience at all, and I think I would like most games if they were more static in terms of character points.

 

Here's a free sample from an article in Digital Hero #3 expanding on this premise, for a different type of Hero gaming: Pointless Champions.

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

 - an old man with a flying suit;

 

Wait a minute.

 

So that movie where Mr. Mom /Batman (which was a hard transition to swallow even when it happened) puts on an alien wing suit and raids alien tech and dights Spider-Man-- that was a character from the comics?  

 

Though to be honest, given the back-up tech working with him, I can kind of buy that being a hard character to beat.

 

 

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 - a pudgy scientist with robotic arms;

 

I only have the movie to go by, but it seems the pudgy scientist was pretty good at out-thinking and out-planing spiderman, and even when fighting, the robot arms quite formidable.

 

Seriously, I bought that as a challenge for the character as portrayed.

 

What I didnt buy was stopping a train by using himself as a stressed member in a net that was what hed to hundred-year-old bricks, held in place with hundred year old mortar....

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 - a cowboy, a bulky thug and a midget who knows martial arts.

 

No idea who these guys are.

 

Probably better off for it. 

 

 

The lion suit guy-  I have never been able to buy into that.

 

 

Ever.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Wait a minute.

 

So that movie where Mr. Mom /Batman (which was a hard transition to swallow even when it happened) puts on an alien wing suit and raids alien tech and fights Spider-Man-- that was a character from the comics?  

 

Though to be honest, given the back-up tech working with him, I can kind of buy that being a hard character to beat.

 

 

That version of Adrian Toomes got a considerable tech upgrade for the movie. The original comic character was much more basic, although his equipment did improve over the decades.

 

 

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

I only have the movie to go by, but it seems the pudgy scientist was pretty good at out-thinking and out-planing spiderman, and even when fighting, the robot arms quite formidable.

 

Seriously, I bought that as a challenge for the character as portrayed.

 

 

Doc Ock's body is supposed to be only human. First punch to the chin by Spidey should have taken him out. Although it's not mentioned anywhere that I'm aware of, I always assumed there was some kind of feedback from his artificial arms that strengthened his body. That was the gimmick applied to the antigrav wing-suit worn by Vulture above.

 

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

No idea who these guys are.

 

Probably better off for it. 

 

 

The were called the Enforcers, muscle and killers for hire. Original members were Ox (very big and very strong), Montana (expert with a lariat), and Fancy Dan (skilled HTH fighter and acrobat, shortest of the three but hardly a "dwarf"). Again, just human, but each exceptional in their way, and worked well as a team.

 

5 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

The lion suit guy-  I have never been able to buy into that.

 

 

Ever.

 

 

So you're okay with a kid in a red and blue webbed leotard and a bug-eyed mask fighting crime, but draw the line at a "deadliest game" hunter in an animal-themed costume?

[Sketchpad]

Early Spider-Man is definitely a teen hero IMHO, and a great example of progression from teen to regular hero over the years. In fact, when I had players complain about the 250pt heroes of yester-Champions, Spidey was my usual example of why they only had 250pts. 

 

As for his rogue's gallery, I've always been a fan. You get legendary bad guys like Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus, and then you get chumps like Grizzly or Kangaroo. Easily one of the best groups of villains in comics (and tied with Batman and Flash in my mind).

[Lord Liaden]

Exactly my thought. Spidey's rogues gallery is exceptional. Biggest difference between the Spider's villains and the Bat's is that most of the former's enemies are actual superhumans, while the latter's are mostly normal human psychopaths with some gimmick. I'm not sure how long Batman would last if he had the likes of Kraven, Rhino, and Sandman regularly coming after him. OTOH Green Goblin, Mysterio, or Kingpin would make splendid Bat-villains, while Clayface, Mr. Freeze, or Man-Bat would work great against the Webhead. And of course they both essentially share a female cat-themed frenemy.

[Duke Bushido]

10 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

That version of Adrian Toomes got a considerable tech upgrade for the movie. The original comic character was much more basic, although his equipment did improve over the decades

So you're okay with a kid in a red and blue webbed leotard and a bug-eyed mask fighting crime, but draw the line at a "deadliest game" hunter in an animal-themed costume?

 

 

We are taking that as the given by which "challenge" is to be judged (or so I assumed; this one could be entirely on me).

 

Given a teen with super-strength, super agility, damger sense, ranged restraints,  etc--

 

I find it difficult to accept that a 40-year-old normal human who fights bare-handed in a rejected disco costume presents a serious challenge to said bug-eyed teen.

 

 

 

 

[Steve]

Spidey’s rogues gallery started with low-pointed builds but most of them have been saving up their XPs over the years.

 

If you treated Spider-Man’s career as a solo Champions campaign, or maybe one where other players play the various villains and occasional team-up heroes, the internal clock in that campaign has been ticking away around 10+ years, and the external clock for several decades more. That represents a lot of table time, so even a stingy GM would have given Peter’s player (and those who keep reoccurring in his rogues gallery) hundreds of xps by now.

[Lord Liaden]

9 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

We are taking that as the given by which "challenge" is to be judged (or so I assumed; this one could be entirely on me).

 

Given a teen with super-strength, super agility, damger sense, ranged restraints,  etc--

 

I find it difficult to accept that a 40-year-old normal human who fights bare-handed in a rejected disco costume presents a serious challenge to said bug-eyed teen.

 

 

 

Ah, are you referring to Kraven the Hunter? If so, you might not be aware that he consumes a "potion" acquired from an African shaman which boosts his physical abilities to superhuman levels, and retards his aging. He's an experienced fighter using animal-like styles, carries a wide range of poisoned and drugged darts and bombs, is expert with many archaic weapons, and even incorporates high-tech electric and sonic weapons in his costume.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Of all the early Spidey villains, Kraven actually is one of the most interesting.  That miniseries of his death was incredible.  Another later one I liked a lot was Puma, but he  hasn't been used much.  Spot was one that is really cool because he started out with no idea what his powers were or how to really use them, and decided to become a criminal which ended terribly, but he got better

[Lord Liaden]

Just FYI, the official Champions Universe has its own analogue to Kraven, a member of the immortal superhuman Empyrean race named Thav, or as his people refer to him, "Hunter Thav." Thav's passion has been big-game hunting, around the globe, for centuries. But as the animals he hunted became rare and protected, he increasingly turned to human prey. The age of superhumans provides his greatest challenge ever, and he adopted the costumed identity of the Pursuer, a bounty hunter and assassin for hire, for the opportunity to hunt challenging "prey." He kills them if hired to, but the thrill of the hunt is what motivates him.

 

In addition to his standard Empyrean powers, Thav has developed enhanced senses, and is probably the most skilled tracker and stalker in the world. He's adept with many modern and antique weapons, and is an experienced brawler.

 

Hunter Thav is written up in Hidden Lands.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Ah, are you referring to Kraven the Hunter?

 

I might be; I really don't know.  Let's be clear here: outside of this forum, the vast majority of my official superhero knowledge comes from the lunch boxes of other kids in the sixties.....

 

Forty-ish; wears no shirt under am open vest made of what appears to be lion face. Pants and shoes from the Danskin Ladies' collection.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

If so, you might not be aware that he consumes a "potion" acquired from an African shaman which boosts his physical abilities to superhuman levels,

 

I absolutely very much am unaware of that, or was until just now.

 

Still, bare-handed against ranged entangled....  And I am assuming the juice wears off eventually?

 

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

I might be; I really don't know.  Let's be clear here: outside of this forum, the vast majority of my official superhero knowledge comes from the lunch boxes of other kids in the sixties.....

 

Forty-ish; wears no shirt under am open vest made of what appears to be lion face. Pants and shoes from the Danskin Ladies' collection.

 

 

 

I absolutely very much am unaware of that, or was until just now.

 

Still, bare-handed against ranged entangled....  And I am assuming the juice wears off eventually?

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, that's the guy. Much older than forty, though.

 

 

 

 

I don't think the "juice" wears off -- it's defined as a "mutagen" in online sources -- but I couldn't find a definitive statement. While under its influence, though, his strength, speed, and agility are demonstrably enough to compete with Spider-Man.

 

As you can see, Kraven does not fight exclusively bare-handed. In addition to his own "ranged entangle," he has used spears, knives, blowgun darts with drugs or poisons, gas bombs (including one that temporarily dampened Spider-Man's spider-sense), as well as advanced electrical and sonic projectors built into his costume.

 

BTW his look was eventually updated. I believe this is what he wears in the most recent Spider-Man video game.

 

Edited March 2 by Lord Liaden

[Dr. MID-Nite]

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

The lion suit guy-  I have never been able to buy into that.

 

I'm assuming you mean Kraven the Hunter? In addition to presumedly being great at his chosen profession, he also uses a lot of gear and a potion that increases his physical abilities to superhuman levels.

[Sketchpad]

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Exactly my thought. Spidey's rogues gallery is exceptional. Biggest difference between the Spider's villains and the Bat's is that most of the former's enemies are actual superhumans, while the latter's are mostly normal human psychopaths with some gimmick. I'm not sure how long Batman would last if he had the likes of Kraven, Rhino, and Sandman regularly coming after him. OTOH Green Goblin, Mysterio, or Kingpin would make splendid Bat-villains, while Clayface, Mr. Freeze, or Man-Bat would work great against the Webhead. And of course they both essentially share a female cat-themed frenemy.

 

I'm sure Bats would do just fine against Spidey's foes, but it also depends on who's writing him. 

[Gauntlet]

One thing I do have to say though is that characters that start out as low powered end up much more powerful than ones that start out as high powered. I am pretty sure this is because they are spending points on their character based on what has happened and not just guessing what they want.