Dr. MID-Nite Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Hey all, I absolutely stink at running agent level opponents in combat(in a standard superheroic game). I can't seem to do anything to make them a credible threat...or even a decent speed bump. I've read the related articles in the VIPER sourcebook and so forth, but I'm still uncomfortable running agent combat. Maybe it's because there are so many to keep track of. I want to use a VIPER 8 team in a future scenario, but I kind of want the heroes to have a (reasonably) hard time. Right now...not sure how to do that. Any advice, for this poor GM? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenixcrest Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Give one or a few of them some really annoying device, like area entangle grenades, or a drain ray, or something like that. Also, have them use coordinated attacks as much as possible, especially if they're well-trained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Taskmaster's Guide to running Hencman, Executive Summary 1> Start with crowd control. For one thing, the crowd should be your side not theirs; I find you usually need at least a 3 to 1 and probably 4 to 1 if you're serious. Second, build them with powers that take phases away from their opponents. Images is great for this (making the heroes waste phases attacking opponents that aren't there, rescuing innocents that aren't there, etc.). 1a> AE Entangle with "entangle & victim both take damage" is your friend. Even if it doesn't cost the hero much time breaking out, it will probably drop them to 0 DCV long enough for a really big hit... 2> Senses. A little darkness can go a long way if your team is ready for it and the other team isn't. Invisibility is superior to Darkness is superior to Flash, just so you know. 3> Remember the dice curve, and don't short the henchman's CV just because it's "realistic". If there's more than 3 points of CV difference the encounter probably isn't worth running. 3a> If you insist on being realistic, go for Area Effects. 4> Put the active points where they matter. A 2d6 NND may not look like much, until each hero is getting hit with it three or four times a turn... 5> Go play StarCraft as the Zerg. Steal tactics mercilessly and shamelessly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magmarock Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Let the heroes wipe out a bunch of decoy agents, then have a number of expert, sniper-agents with silenced weapons fire on the heroes while they are busy... Or detonate a big bomb, ground zero, even if the agents will be surely killed in the blast (the villain who hired them wouldn't care, right?). Make sure the heroes come to the agents' home turf, where all kinds of nasty traps lie around in abundance.... traps that the agents know of, of course. The agents would be very familiar with the area and use it to their advantage. Ambushed, the heroes are surprised long enough for the agents to coordinate their attacks... all STUN that get's past a hero's defenses get added togather. This should be the agents' #1 tactic at all times. Have one or two teams gang up on one unlucky hero, don't spread them around. With agents, the mob rules! Agent aren't thugs... they should be well trained and combat smart. They should have tactics, knowledge of their adversary, as well as numerous dry runs/ practice scenarios on any given situation. Don't be afraid to individualize your agents. Name them, for goodness sake! I do! (Try not to use the name Smith, though, unless you want the heroes to gang up on him.) No one cares if Agent #3 gets pasted, but if Agent McCarthy is taken out by a hero, and his brother, also Agent McCarthy, in the next squad see this, he may turn his big gun on that hero... not to mention that the heroes might go lighter on the agents if they realize these are people too. Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Have one agent in every 4 have find weakness. The other three coordinate attacks on a target while the fourth one does find weakness. Then number four calls out targets and they all coordinate. Use entangles copiously. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magmarock Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Use entangles copiously.Doc Especially the kind that aren't damaged by attacks... Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... 3> Remember the dice curve' date=' and don't short the henchman's CV just because it's "realistic". If there's more than 3 points of CV difference the encounter probably isn't worth running.[/quote'] It depends on the reason for the difference. If the hero's DCV is really high because one or two hits will take him out, or if the agents have really high-damage weapons, then if you throw enough attacks one will eventually slip through. If one or two agent hits won't mean much, then you're right, the combat is fairly pointless. You can also use Multiple Attacker Bonus, if it fits your campaign style. Or maybe you can give the agents some CSLs that work the same way. I should dig up the charts I made for making several to-hit rolls with a single dice roll. They mitigate the pain of running a large number of agents. They also give you a nice visual representation of the difference multiple attackers can make. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Don't be afraid to individualize your agents. Name them' date=' for goodness sake! I do![/quote']This is a great idea. When I remember too I like to individualise my orcs. Sorry, I mean agents. Don't think having a name helps them fight any better though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... I've found that individualizing agents will make the PCs treat them differently. They won't necessarily fight better, but combats can become more interesting. Plus players will be prepared for surprises, so it's easier to keep a few up your sleeve. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryBug Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Always remember, what individual agents lack in raw power can be made up for in numbers, teamwork and tactics. The more the agents know in advance about the supers' powers and tactics, the better prepared they will be. Allowing Viper (or whoever) to learn from each encounter and devise strategies and weapons for specific heroes makes them more dangerous each time the heroes face them. AE Entangles followed by coordinated attacks for the Speedster, Drains that target the Energy Projector's special effects, and of course the (prototype) "Big Gun" for the otherwise unstoppable Brick (Bulky focus, one or two Charges only, perhaps with Burnout, can make a very nasty cannon surprisingly affordable). Allowing Viper to learn from past encounters is only fair, after all, since the heroes do the same, so it is really not unlikely that they would develop weapons specifically for individual heroes. Just allow the agency to customize a team to deal with the supergroup that has given them so much trouble. With a few well-chosen special weapons, good Teamwork skills and the element of surprise, those "speedbump" agents can be more deadly than supervillains with 3X their point cost. If you can find a copy of "Super Agents" anywhere, it has great resources for building and handling agents. It's geared toward agents as PCs, but still has a lot of useful ideas for dealing with NPC agencies and tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Make sure your agenst have weapons that will (not can, will) penetrate the heroes' defenses. They can't win if they can't even affect their enemy. Keep in mind that this isn't always damage. As mentioned above, a few well placed entangles will cripple a team. So will NND attacks. There are two specific tactics I like using. The first is to give the agents weapons that will, on average, drop the most well armored character's STUN by 25%. Have the agents start shooting by spreading their attack by half (so a 12d6 EB will do only 6d6, but gain a +6 to OCV). At first, your heroes will get hit each and every time, but won't take any damage. They might take knockback, get knocked down and become sitting duck for the next agent. If the agents realize they aren't doing enough damage, have them step of the DC by 2 each shot until their targets drop. Realisticly, the heroes should drop them first, before they reach max damage, and the agenst will suffer from fewer and fewer successful hits. But the number of sucessful hits and the likelyhood of someone taking a load of damage during the encounter should get the team to respect these agents. Another tactic I like is to use snipers. Nothing better than assulting a group of heroes with a VIPER 8 team and secretly hide three additional agents with No Range Penalty NND rifles with No Range Penalty scopes and Telescopic Vison a few blocks away. Sure, the team will realize what's going on right away, but while one or two of them are off to take care of the solo snipers, that will leave fewer heroes to deal with the 8 team. It's even better if the 8 team waits for a few to leave before pulling out specialized weapons to take out whoever's left. Players hate me with I do this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted May 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Taskmaster's Guide to running Hencman, Executive Summary 1> Start with crowd control. For one thing, the crowd should be your side not theirs; I find you usually need at least a 3 to 1 and probably 4 to 1 if you're serious. Second, build them with powers that take phases away from their opponents. Images is great for this (making the heroes waste phases attacking opponents that aren't there, rescuing innocents that aren't there, etc.). 1a> AE Entangle with "entangle & victim both take damage" is your friend. Even if it doesn't cost the hero much time breaking out, it will probably drop them to 0 DCV long enough for a really big hit... 2> Senses. A little darkness can go a long way if your team is ready for it and the other team isn't. Invisibility is superior to Darkness is superior to Flash, just so you know. 3> Remember the dice curve, and don't short the henchman's CV just because it's "realistic". If there's more than 3 points of CV difference the encounter probably isn't worth running. 3a> If you insist on being realistic, go for Area Effects. 4> Put the active points where they matter. A 2d6 NND may not look like much, until each hero is getting hit with it three or four times a turn... 5> Go play StarCraft as the Zerg. Steal tactics mercilessly and shamelessly. 3 to1 or 4 to 1 would be very difficult to run for me right now. I'm a relatively inexperienced GM and agent combat tends to really bog me down...I'll lose track of what's going on and so forth. The more agents there are, the worse it seems to be. However, if you have any good tips for running agent combat efficiently, I'd probably be more willing to use more agents. Right now...ever a five on five matchup of supers can be a challenge for me to run. Not sure why...everything just seems to slow to a crawl... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted May 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Make sure your agenst have weapons that will (not can' date=' [i']will[/i]) penetrate the heroes' defenses. They can't win if they can't even affect their enemy. Keep in mind that this isn't always damage. As mentioned above, a few well placed entangles will cripple a team. So will NND attacks. There are two specific tactics I like using. The first is to give the agents weapons that will, on average, drop the most well armored character's STUN by 25%. Have the agents start shooting by spreading their attack by half (so a 12d6 EB will do only 6d6, but gain a +6 to OCV). At first, your heroes will get hit each and every time, but won't take any damage. They might take knockback, get knocked down and become sitting duck for the next agent. If the agents realize they aren't doing enough damage, have them step of the DC by 2 each shot until their targets drop. Realisticly, the heroes should drop them first, before they reach max damage, and the agenst will suffer from fewer and fewer successful hits. But the number of sucessful hits and the likelyhood of someone taking a load of damage during the encounter should get the team to respect these agents. Another tactic I like is to use snipers. Nothing better than assulting a group of heroes with a VIPER 8 team and secretly hide three additional agents with No Range Penalty NND rifles with No Range Penalty scopes and Telescopic Vison a few blocks away. Sure, the team will realize what's going on right away, but while one or two of them are off to take care of the solo snipers, that will leave fewer heroes to deal with the 8 team. It's even better if the 8 team waits for a few to leave before pulling out specialized weapons to take out whoever's left. Players hate me with I do this... Some intriguing tactics here. You're sneaky, Dust Raven. I like that. My group has a wide spread of defenses. So your "spread" idea might work very well with my group as even at 6d6...there are members of my team who won't want to be hit by that. Most of the team has public identity(or are at the very least well known) so VIPER probably has a pretty good idea of what they can do. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... 3 to1 or 4 to 1 would be very difficult to run for me right now. I'm a relatively inexperienced GM and agent combat tends to really bog me down...I'll lose track of what's going on and so forth. Rob Break them down into fire teams and make a simple list of actions for them. Tracking STUN, BODY and charges is hardly difficult with a little prep- I more often find that figuring out what each agent is doing is more work. If you treat each team like one big character with multiple actions, it gets easier to keep track of who's doing what. Move them as one and don't mix actions too much, it just gets confusing. "Team A moves to take cover behind the red pickup and saves a half phase" or "Team B faces right and coordinates attacks on Captain Patriot" is easier to handle than "Agents 1 and 2 fire on Ninja Boy, Agent 3 tosses a grenade across the room to cover Team D, Agent 4 moves up into cover and Agent 5 Finds Weakness and saves half a phase.". Thirty agents doing that would be a nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... 3 to1 or 4 to 1 would be very difficult to run for me right now. I'm a relatively inexperienced GM and agent combat tends to really bog me down...I'll lose track of what's going on and so forth. The more agents there are, the worse it seems to be. However, if you have any good tips for running agent combat efficiently, I'd probably be more willing to use more agents. Right now...ever a five on five matchup of supers can be a challenge for me to run. Not sure why...everything just seems to slow to a crawl... Rob #1 -- "Pre-rolls" are your friend. If you can make a program or a spreadsheet to make a large number of dice rolls for you in advance it will save you a lot of time. If you have a PDA or a laptop you might also want to look into a dice-rolling program; I've seen several that can use "Hero Dice" (that is, they figure BODY). You'll definitely want a bunch of 3d6 results, and a fair number of results for the agents' main attack. #2 -- Ditch the hexes, use minatures and a tape measure. Requires a little bit of preprep sometimes (personally I use a "whiteboard" sheet to draw out pertinent scenary) but the time you save counting hexes will be more than worthwhile. #3 -- There is no substitute for preperation. The above led in this direction, obviously. One that I personally recommend is to create a "to hit" line on the agent sheet. Chart out the possible DCV's and what the agents will need to hit that DCV. For example, if your agents will normally have a 6 OCV you'd write "6 = 11, 7 = 12, 8 = 13, 9 = 14" and so on. #4 -- Until you're more comfortable with combat, don't bother keeping track of all numbers for the agents. Give them "chit points" instead. For most agents this means 2 slightly-below-average hits or 1 slightly-above-average hit takes them out. Don't bother with the points, checkmark them once and take 'em off the field the second time. #5 -- Number your agents, and use numbered "miniatures" for them. I usually just create some counters and use those in place of miniatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... More agent fun! 1. Figure out how many agents your heroes are likely to reduce to puddles of comatosity in the first phase. Add that number to the actual number of agents you *want* to use. Dress them in red Classic Trek uniforms, and let them get hosed down. 2. Sneak Attacks are your friend. If all 8 agents get off a shot in the surprise 12, then you might be able to cash in 2 heroes. VIPER agents in stolen UNTIL uniforms are a load of laughs. 3. Entangles are great, but Flashes can be even more annoying. Running a fight with 4E Viper, an agent with a Solar (6d6 Flash Explosion) rifle hosed the entire team. This presumes a relative lack of Flash Defense, of course. 4. Knockback in really big amounts can also be your friend. Scattering the PCs hither and yon reduces their teamwork ability (and anybody without a ranged attack gets really hosed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Break them down into fire teams and make a simple list of actions for them. Tracking STUN, BODY and charges is hardly difficult with a little prep- I more often find that figuring out what each agent is doing is more work. If you treat each team like one big character with multiple actions, it gets easier to keep track of who's doing what. Move them as one and don't mix actions too much, it just gets confusing. "Team A moves to take cover behind the red pickup and saves a half phase" or "Team B faces right and coordinates attacks on Captain Patriot" is easier to handle than "Agents 1 and 2 fire on Ninja Boy, Agent 3 tosses a grenade across the room to cover Team D, Agent 4 moves up into cover and Agent 5 Finds Weakness and saves half a phase.". Thirty agents doing that would be a nightmare. This is huge. A really good point I was going to make, so I'll just second it. Treat every five agents like a "single opponent"... at least in concept. Don't worry as much about individual stun and body... but more on the reactions and described tactics of the squad. Example: The E-Men are assaulted by three squads of agents. They rain fire down on the group from well established positions with cover... (just roll one attack for each squad... with +3 to +4 OCV to simulate a hail of fire where one or two shots actually hit...) Always assume that at least one agent has a held action... so after the heroes attack, roll a couple of extra attacks, usually with bigger/trickier weapons (entangles, grenades, etc.) This should be done roughly, and at whatever phase/segment that you feel is most dramatic. Don't stick to the Speed chart with agents (and in fact, IMO, chuck the Speed chart all together for a better Champions game, but that's another thread...) Don't bunch up the agents, and have them fight smart... so when One-Eye spreads a blast, he doesn't hit as many... and when Claw-Guy dives into a pack of them, they can throw blocks, dodge, and after the attack goes off, those not attacked blast away. Don't bother with individual stun & body... just have one go down whenever they get hit with an attack you feel is big enough to take 'em out. Oh... and do what others have said, give 'em names. When Weather Woman blasts one, have another yell, "NOOO! Pauly! I'll get you, you witch!" and that kind of thing. Even if they don't perform any better, it makes for much better role playing when The Blue Bamf interogates a fallen agent afterwards and can say things like, "You saw what happened to Pauly, right?" by way of intimidation. Remember... its all about the "flavah!" more than the numbers and powers and the rules. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... The first is to give the agents weapons that will, on average, drop the most well armored character's STUN by 25%. Have the agents start shooting by spreading their attack by half (so a 12d6 EB will do only 6d6, but gain a +6 to OCV). At first, your heroes will get hit each and every time, but won't take any damage. They might take knockback, get knocked down and become sitting duck for the next agent. If the agents realize they aren't doing enough damage, have them step of the DC by 2 each shot until their targets drop. This is a great tactic! Well balanced overall, and likely to result in a tough but winnable fight for the PCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... This came up on these boards years ago. Someone (no way I can remember the name) told of a situation when he had some Special Forces friends in town. I'll paraphrase from memory as best I can: " I had a session planned that night in my Champions game. It was an attack by some agents on the Superhero HQ. It was supposed to be an easy battle for the PCs, just to let them know some outfit was gunning for them. I invited the Special Forces guys to guest-run the agents. I never saw the PC heroes get thumped so fast and so thoroughly. The SF guys used their tactical training. They opened up with a grenade barrage from cover..." Anyway, agents being run by real tactical experts totally waxed the superheroes. You can't always get those types to run your agents. However, it's always rough for the GM, who has to run many characters, while each player runs only one. If you happen to have players sitting around who aren't involved in the combat, let them take control of some of the agents!! I've done this many times, in many games. It gives the idle players something to do, AND lessens the GM burden. You have to have good players, of course, but when it works it's great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Agents are a pain when... They take advantage of civiliians in the line of fire. They come prepared specifically for one or more heroes on the team. As pointed out, there are too many to take down without tons of AOE attacks. They are supplemental to one or two villains. "Serpentine" showing up with twenty "Snake Men" is scarier than either alone; When you start focusing on the obvious threat, these guys are getting in good crossfire shots and targeting specific heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... This came up on these boards years ago. Someone (no way I can remember the name) told of a situation when he had some Special Forces friends in town. I'll paraphrase from memory as best I can: " I had a session planned that night in my Champions game. It was an attack by some agents on the Superhero HQ. It was supposed to be an easy battle for the PCs, just to let them know some outfit was gunning for them. I invited the Special Forces guys to guest-run the agents. I never saw the PC heroes get thumped so fast and so thoroughly. The SF guys used their tactical training. They opened up with a grenade barrage from cover..." Anyway, agents being run by real tactical experts totally waxed the superheroes. You can't always get those types to run your agents. However, it's always rough for the GM, who has to run many characters, while each player runs only one. If you happen to have players sitting around who aren't involved in the combat, let them take control of some of the agents!! I've done this many times, in many games. It gives the idle players something to do, AND lessens the GM burden. You have to have good players, of course, but when it works it's great. ROFLMAO. They shoulda seen it coming. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Anyway' date=' agents being run by real tactical experts totally waxed the superheroes.[/quote'] Does anyone know of a Lazy Bum's Guide To Tactics? Like maybe an online resource that runs down the basics? I'd be curious to see some real-life guidelines. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... I should dig up the charts I made for making several to-hit rolls with a single dice roll. They mitigate the pain of running a large number of agents. They also give you a nice visual representation of the difference multiple attackers can make.Ooooh, would you? That'd be handy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... Ooooh' date=' would you? That'd be handy! [/quote'] Let's see if this works ... 2 OpponentsTo Hit 2 Hits 1Hit 3 - 3 4 - 4 5 - 5 6 3 6 7 4 7 8 5 8 9 6 9 10 8 10 11 9 11 12 10 12 13 11 13 14 12 14 15 14 15 16 15 16 17 16 17 18 18 18 3 OpponentsTo Hit 3 Hits 2 Hits 1Hit 3 - - 4 4 - - 5 5 - 3 6 6 - 4 8 7 3 5 9 8 4 7 10 9 5 8 12 10 6 10 13 11 7 11 14 12 9 13 16 13 10 14 17 14 12 15 17 15 13 17 17 16 14 17 17 17 16 17 17 18 18 18 18 4 OpponentsTo Hit 4 Hits 3 Hits 2 Hits 1Hit 3 - - - 4 4 - - 3 5 5 - - 4 7 6 - 3 5 8 7 - 4 6 10 8 3 5 8 11 9 4 6 9 13 10 5 8 11 14 11 6 10 13 15 12 8 11 14 16 13 10 13 16 17 14 11 15 17 17 15 13 16 17 17 16 14 17 17 17 17 16 17 17 18 18 18 18 18 18 5 OpponentsTo Hit 5 Hits 4 Hits 3 Hits 2 Hits 1Hit 3 - - - - 4 4 - - - 3 6 5 - - - 4 7 6 - - 3 5 9 7 - 3 4 7 10 8 - 4 6 9 12 9 3 5 8 11 14 10 4 7 10 12 15 11 6 9 11 14 16 12 7 11 13 16 17 13 9 13 15 17 17 14 11 14 16 17 17 15 12 16 17 17 17 16 14 17 17 17 18 17 15 17 17 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Re: Agent combat.... That's a really nifty table. Thanks AA! Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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