Invulnerability headaches.

[Rerednaw]

I've noticed that the damage reduction charts thread has become a invulnerability thread.

 

Since I want to handle the two separately I'll ask here. (Yes I know this has been brought up ad naseum).

 

I've considered the limited form of Desolidification and also high damage reduction (75%) only versus a given SFX, but I'd really rather see a different power altogether.

 

My thoughts:

 

The standard superhero campaign is 350 points. A character who wishes to be invulnerable should probably be made to spend most if not all on this power.

 

Invulnerability *STOP* Base cost 120 points for one type (PD, ED, or Special). The special categories are mental, adjustment powers, and so forth.

 

Advise strongly that this power be taken with a mandatory limitation (must be against a particular special effect). (-1/4 to -2, depending on how frequent the attack form is).

 

Other limitations: Not resistant -1/2. Not versus AP attacks -1/4. Not versus Penetrating attacks -1/4. Not versus indirect attacks (guy with invulnerable outer skin gets hit with a blast that originates say inside his mouth) -1/4. Likewise not if successful Find Weakness made -1/4.

 

Suggestions/changes to resolve this mess (other than not allowing it in the first place?)

 

Cheers.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think it looks fine. I'd suggest defining it as a Special Power that's Persistent and doesn't cost END. Making it a Special Power will make it harder for jokers to stick it in a Multipower.

[Zaratustra]

Sounds very good, but why a different power?

[Rerednaw]

Originally posted by Zaratustra

Sounds very good, but why a different power?

 

Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system. Using desolidification, then any attack with affects desolid will affect that form, which really makes no sense.

 

There isn't an official damage reduction 100% power as of yet either.

 

I also meant to include it was special power that costs no END, so it can't go into a framework. Thanks for pointing that out, Derek.

 

And of course, it should go without saying that no character should be invulnerable to everything, there should always be a weakness.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter anyway.

 

Cheers.

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by Rerednaw

Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system.

I hope I don't come across as offensive, but----

This is a problem, how?

 

IMO, this search for the holy grail of invulnerability is against the "feel" of the Hero System. It "feels" like D&D, with its Magic Missile that always hits, and its Shield that always blocks, and the ThisSpell that always xyz and the ThatSpell that always ____ and so on ad nauseum.

 

Hero System, OTOH, is a coherent SYSTEM, with balance built in. Which means that, while there's no limit (other than AP caps and other GM decisions) to how powerful any Defensive Power can be, you have to pay for each increment.

 

Frankly, I consider attempts to violate that "feel", by looking for any "always works" power, to be an attempt to break the System.

 

But, that's just my opinion. I couldn't stand around and not speak up in defense of my favorite gaming System any longer.

 

--

A user will find any interface design intuitive...with enough practice.

[BlackCobra]

Nigh invulnerability

 

Well, ok, I don't know how beaten to death this topic is, but really, if you have high enough Damage Reduction AND enough armor (the key), you pretty much ARE invulnerable. (Or as near enough as makes no never-mind.)

 

I have seen this in action. A character had 50/50 hardened armor and 75% damage reduction (physical and energy). He regularly ignored attacks that any other team members had problems with. This doesn't mean he was completely invulnerable --- but it took a really Cosmic level effect to shake him. Now -- admittedly this was a 500-pt space campaign; essentially a Justic League level campaign. But if this were designed to simulate invulnerability to a particular type of thing (e.g. fire), the limitations would make it much more reasonable.

 

Remember, Superman required really massive attacks to hit him before he even noticed the damage. (Not including the one from the animated television series, who apparently doesn't get any sun at all.)

 

Personally, I'm resistant to introducing new powers to Hero, for the very reasons mentioned elsewhere.

 

Does that help the discussion at all?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by BasilDrag

I hope I don't come across as offensive, but----

This is a problem, how?

 

IMO, this search for the holy grail of invulnerability is against the "feel" of the Hero System. It "feels" like D&D, with its Magic Missile that always hits, and its Shield that always blocks, and the ThisSpell that always xyz and the ThatSpell that always ____ and so on ad nauseum.

 

Hero System, OTOH, is a coherent SYSTEM, with balance built in. Which means that, while there's no limit (other than AP caps and other GM decisions) to how powerful any Defensive Power can be, you have to pay for each increment.

 

Frankly, I consider attempts to violate that "feel", by looking for any "always works" power, to be an attempt to break the System.

 

But, that's just my opinion. I couldn't stand around and not speak up in defense of my favorite gaming System any longer.

 

--

A user will find any interface design intuitive...with enough practice.

 

I sort of hesitate to weigh in as this topic is pretty old, but (and by the way the original post in the topic looked okay to me) the other thing to consider is that HERO is supposed to in part simulate high-powered and low-powered level heroic drama; high-powered sometimes includes invulnerabilities. Many people like to simulate that without resorting to buying high defenses because high defenses aren't enough when it comes to penetrating attacks and other "tricks". I don't think it's unreasonable, though of course I respect that many others don't like the idea.

[Tom McCarthy]

There's lots of little things about the system I'd consider changing. Being invulnerable to a single SFX is a power I would include, but I'd do it in a fairly straightforward way.

 

I'd have to juggle the possibilities but they'd be something like:

- 100% resistant DR only vs. a single SFX for 60 points

- Desolidification, only to protect against attacks with a single SFX, and clarify that i) the attacks do not pass through the character, simply do not affect him, ii) this power does not necessitate buying Affects Physical World, and iii) Affects Desolid does not make an attack of that SFX effective against the character.

 

Other things I'd think about changing:

- Make the 'barrier penetration' aspect of Desolidification separate from the damage avoidance aspect of Desolidification

- I'd have to think long and hard about whether or not Spirit or Possession powers are needed

- I'd want to review the structure of mental powers. The effectiveness of a high EGO as a defence against Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Mind Scan and Telepathy is very impressive, while that high EGO does very little against Ego Attack

- I'd look at whether or not players really need to be prevented from having automaton powers

[Monolith]

Invulnerability has always seemed to be an "issue" with many players. It has never really bothered me at all, because in comic books there is no such thing as invulnerability. Superman bounces punches, until someone strong enough comes along, then he gets hurt. Human Torch bounces fire attacks until Firelord comes along with his "cosmically enhanced" fire and zaps him, ect. Ultimately I think Invulnerability is best understood as how they did it in the old Marvel Superheroes game: It is a number that defends against damage, and if you exceed that number you can be damaged by the attack.

 

There are many different ways to handle invulnerability. For me the simplest way is to just determine the average damage of your campaing and base the number from there. So if 14d6 attacks are the norm the 50 DEF should cover it in most cases. So someone could buy: +30 Hardened Armor, X damage Only: -1/2; Naked Avantage: Hardend on PD or ED (up to 20 points), X damage Only: -1/2. For 40 point the character has 50 Hardened DEF against a specific type of attack. That bounces 14d6 and the character takes minimal damage from attacks over that. Seems fairly simple to me.

[TheEmerged]

I'm from the "lack of invulnerability in HERO is not a flaw" school of thought myself. Any time you start throwing absolutes around you start running into conflicts & trouble.

 

Having said that, I think I know why some people seem obsessed with finding it: because they don't like the idea of taking STUN, somehow feeling that this means they were hurt. STUN can add up, mind, but it's amazing what having a sufficient REC score can do for you...

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by zornwil

I sort of hesitate to weigh in as this topic is pretty old, but (and by the way the original post in the topic looked okay to me) the other thing to consider is that HERO is supposed to in part simulate high-powered and low-powered level heroic drama; high-powered sometimes includes invulnerabilities. Many people like to simulate that without resorting to buying high defenses because high defenses aren't enough when it comes to penetrating attacks and other "tricks". I don't think it's unreasonable, though of course I respect that many others don't like the idea.

FIrst, (as has been pointed out), for most comic-book and other high-powered characters, "Invulnerable" has repeatedly turned out to mean "Ain't been hit YET."

 

Second, from a game balance perspective, it's a poor idea. Viz. D&D's MagicMissile/ShieldSpell/Wossname/BlahBlah/YaddaYadda escalation. A true invulnerability, no matter to how limited a SFX, invites an invulnerability-buster, then a trump to it, and so on and so forth.

 

I think it wisest to control the problem by not starting down that road in the first place.

 

--

"College isn't the place to go for ideas." -- Helen Keller

[pawsplay]

Old Marvel Super-Heroes placed Captain America's shield at Class 3000 hardness.

 

Which means there are things that can destroy it... Death and Eternity both have Class 5000 ability.

[Ndreare]

One thing I have found works in my games is a special rules set for Defenses like the special rules set for regeneration in the Healing power.

 

I allow players to by the defense limited to one FX then hardened (only once is needed) after that I make the power immune to all defense ignoring powers except find weakness. So Vibro buys Immune to Vibration +30 rPD/rED +1/4 hardened only vs. Vibration -1 for 45 points, then "Quake" shoots him with 8D6 AVLD "lack of weakness" "Rictor Blast" or his 5D6 Penetrating *5 +2 1/2 "Ultra Vib Shot" I still allow his Invulnerability to apply.

 

(I believe allot of it is common sense when a character buys must limited defense powers they are supposed to define a "Common Defense or Set of Defenses that can resist the attack" and this one is added to whatever list they made for free. As for the ones that don'e that is nice.)

 

P.S.: Please note that the same character would still take some stun or maybe even body from an attack of say 18D6 EB +1/2 Explosion Vibro Quake as the amount rolled could exceed his defenses protection.

[jtelson]

I don't see any issue with an Invulnerability power. Even if true invulnerability is rare to non-existant in comics. It is not uncommon at all in other genres and any system that claims to be a toolkit for genre simulation should include the option for absolutes. All absolutes abilities should of course be labeled STOP and should only be allowed where appropriate.

I think it speaks volumes for the Hero System that it is so easy to create an Invulnerability power and insert it.

[JmOz]

I'll tell you all how to make a truly invulnerable character, it will be expensive:

 

Healing/Regeneration/from Death/Regrow limbs, with enough to regen x2 Body characteristic (okay now the worse case senario is you die and are resurected)

 

Enough REC to heal all your stun in one recovery

 

x2 Speed (only to take recoveries), Linked to Desolification

 

So how does this monstocity work?

 

Character is hit by attack, he will recover with the F/X of it did not hurt me

[Ndreare]

Kind of Expensive for a Speed five, Stun 35, Recovery 6 Body 10 being. (Although Body would get very expensive to raise.)

 

35: Speed +7 0nly for recovery –1

 

58: Recovery +29

 

262: Healing 20D6 +20 from death, +5 includes limbs, Standard Effect Rule +0, 0-end +1/2, Self-only –1/2, Trigger whenever I take Damage +1/4

 

A Standard character would not have much left for other powers as he is already five points in the hole.

[ShadowRaptor]

Would this work: Buy a lot of armor that only works against a specific attack type and have the armor only have the defense against that attack type? Like a Fire Protection spell...buy it as Armor, put it all ED, then have a disadvantage that it works only against fire. Or a Force field... then put in a lot of points into it. But, I think that deep down there is no such thing as a complete Invulnerability to something because it just doesn't make to much sense. And it takes the danger out of it...but to have a power that can provide a great amount of defense to something, and have it high enough to be more than most attacks within a particular campaign, that could, and should, be possible.

[feywulf]

Originally posted by Ndreare

262: Healing 20D6 +20 from death, +5 includes limbs, Standard Effect Rule +0, 0-end +1/2, Self-only –1/2, Trigger whenever I take Damage +1/4

 

Instead of buying heal as reverse normal damage, buy heal body. 3 active points of body per d6 with standard effect is 1.5 body. Then you only need 14d6 of heal instead of 20. This is assuming that the character doesn't go below negative max body. You'd want to buy some regeneration to quickly heal the body that is restored by this triggered heal so you won't be hampered by the active point limit on how much a heal can heal.

 

That brings up a questions. Does the regeneration option on healing heal 1 body and 3 stun per d6 like simplified healing with standard effect? Or should it only restore body but do 1.5 body(3 active points) per d6?

[DoctorItron]

I recall an "invulnerability" writeup on the old Hero boards that combined high defenses and Absorption into STUN.

 

I've been playing Champions on and off for 15 years and don't recall many player complaints that the rules wouldn't let them be invulnerable. I have, however, heard players complain that the GM wouldn't let them take unlimited defenses. The other players often have no fun when a teammate can't be damaged by anything.

[Vondy]

Oh, hell. This is ridiculous. If you want to pay all those points just by:

 

Desolidification, 0 End, Persistant, Only To Protect From Attacks.

 

If the GM is nice you won't even have to buy your other powers as Affects Physical because your really still solid according to the SFX.

 

If not, you just by the APW, because for the costs of some of the constructs I'm seeing here its not THAT expensive.

[Old Man]

I've found plain old 75% damage reduction to be good enough to make a character nigh invincible, especially if combined with an average level of regular defenses. If you have a 20/20 force field and 75% DR, on average you take six stun from a 12d6 EB and eleven stun from a 20d6 EB. You never have to worry about being stunned. Even a critical hit from an 8d6K, enough to outright kill anyone else, inflicts just seven body and 55 stun.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Rerednaw

Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system. Using desolidification, then any attack with affects desolid will affect that form, which really makes no sense.

In that case, there may be a way to deal with your problem without addition to the rules: don't allow the Affects Desolidification Advantage. The character can only be affected by attacks naturally affecting his Desolidification.

 

If Superman were to be bought this way, he takes Desolidification, Persistent, Invisible Power Effects, Always On, Not Through Walls (whatever that's called, I'm being lazy) and he is affected by magic. Now no one without a magical attack or one of his weaknesses can harm him. Not a perfect example since he's really better simulated with a high Defense, but you get the idea.

[Yamo]

Just buy a second Desolidification "Only To Protect Against The Affects Desolidified Advantage."

 

[Arthur]

I have come to the conclusion that the inability to do absolutes in HERO is a feature, not a bug.

 

The system is open-ended. It never tells you what you can't do - it merely gives a point cost. Yes, you can simulate anything - with enough points. The characters are defined using values in the real number system (rounded into integer values).

 

It then follows that having an absolute defense that will stop anything must be able to counter attacks of any point level no matter how large the number. For any attack of value n: the defense must be greater than or equal to n.

 

Conclusion:

 

Point cost of Invulnerability: infinite.

 

You simply cannot do it within any point value within the set of integers (except in the sense that the set of integers is itself endless). Remember, "infinity" is not a number, it is a quality - the quality of endlessness.

[archermoo]

Re: Invulnerability headaches.

 

Originally posted by Rerednaw

I've noticed that the damage reduction charts thread has become a invulnerability thread.

 

Since I want to handle the two separately I'll ask here. (Yes I know this has been brought up ad naseum).

 

I've considered the limited form of Desolidification and also high damage reduction (75%) only versus a given SFX, but I'd really rather see a different power altogether.

 

My thoughts:

 

The standard superhero campaign is 350 points. A character who wishes to be invulnerable should probably be made to spend most if not all on this power.

 

Invulnerability *STOP* Base cost 120 points for one type (PD, ED, or Special). The special categories are mental, adjustment powers, and so forth.

 

Advise strongly that this power be taken with a mandatory limitation (must be against a particular special effect). (-1/4 to -2, depending on how frequent the attack form is).

 

Other limitations: Not resistant -1/2. Not versus AP attacks -1/4. Not versus Penetrating attacks -1/4. Not versus indirect attacks (guy with invulnerable outer skin gets hit with a blast that originates say inside his mouth) -1/4. Likewise not if successful Find Weakness made -1/4.

 

Suggestions/changes to resolve this mess (other than not allowing it in the first place?)

 

Cheers.

 

So this begs the question of how much cost would you assign to the power that lets you damage someone with your Invulnerability power?