[4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

[nexus]

All right, I'd like those that dislike the Iron Age style to post their reasons here. If you are fan of the style this thread is not a personal attack on you or your tastes. It might be best if you avoided it all together if you are senstive which is understandable. I think we all are to some extrent or another. The reason I am posting this is test a theory, one I think will show an important distinction in attitudes being displayed on this board. Again, please, no flaming.

[Blue]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I like 'em all. But I sometimes lean to one over the other as a matter of escapism. The idealistic world of the Golden Age is so much simpler and purer, and in some cases easier to digest. But my gang are definitely Iron Age, even if they do say "silver". They're confused

[Enforcer84]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Personally? I find the "realism" to be conflicting with my desire for escapism.

[Chuckg]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Actually, I hate it because most of the more commonly known Iron Age comics are as unrealistic as the Silver Age comics they are supposedly more realistic than...

 

... just in the opposite direction.

 

Dystopia is equally as fictional a place as Utopia, and for the same reason -- it assumes that human nature breaks 99+% towards a given direction. It's just that its chosen direction is 'down' instead of 'up'.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

If the current comics are in Iron age, then I don't mind them so much. If we are in the "gilded" age, then yeah....

 

My problems stem from the idea that to be gritty, dark, pushy or lethal is inherently better or more heroic, or even realistic. For me it is a matter of taste... I generally read my comics to read about heroic people doing heroic things normal people can't do- and doing them with a code of ethics that would be beyond most people as well. That last part is important, the superheroes I read should have a moral/ethical code as far above norm as thier powerlevel. It's okay for a cop to shoot a criminal, because he is authorized by the government to do so, and it could endanger his life. However, because of the tradition of nonkilling in comics, that is not the norm in superheroes, and I like that. Superman doesn't kill the criminals because he doesn't have to. If a character would be seen as a villian in a 70's Superman comic book then I think of him as a villian.

 

Now the "realism" aspect about characters feeling real, and having problems, I don't mind that to an extent. The stuff Geoff Johns and Kurt Busiek write are very much Iron Age on that front, but thier character are still heroic in the classic superhero sense.... as opposed to the Punisher, Authority or such. I like in depth characterization, and deep emotional issues, but I want my superheroes to be super in powers, approach, and attitude.

 

I take for granted in my superheroes (whether comics or gaming) that killing is wrong. Period. There may be extenuiting circumstances where the circumstance are more important than that line, but the do not happen often, and the character does not treat it easily. Casual Killers are right out.

 

In general I prefer my comics to be PG/PG-13 - I don't even want much swearing in what I read there.

 

Comics for me are escapism, going into a place that is less murky than the real world, somewhere I can know where I and the heroes stand, and I can respect that stance.

 

So pretty much I dislike the Iron Age because it exemplifies the opposite of virtually everything I read comics for.

 

Hope that answers your question, without turning things into flamebait.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Simply put, I can get stories of death, murder, cruelty and strife by reading the news. The real world has all the moral ambiguity I could ever want (actually, far more than I want).

 

I prefer my heroes squeaky-clean.

[Hermit]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Actually, I hate it because most of the more commonly known Iron Age comics are as unrealistic as the Silver Age comics they are supposedly more realistic than...

 

... just in the opposite direction.

 

Dystopia is equally as fictional a place as Utopia, and for the same reason -- it assumes that human nature breaks 99+% towards a given direction. It's just that its chosen direction is 'down' instead of 'up'.

 

 

Darn it, I feel so unoriginal now, because Chuckg just summed up my general problem with most Iron Age.

 

My specific problem is the tendency of Iron Age superheroes be total and absolute a$$h***s! Not just one member of the team, but like 90% of them. These are the sort of people that I think make the real world a rotten place to live, and I'm supposed to believe they're trying to make my fictional one better? I do not admire rapists, bigots, murderers and deviants. I do not find callousness a virtue, nor do I think being crude and selfish is something to be proud of. "but it shows they're human!" . No, not when 99% of them turn out like that. Being a jerk sometimes or on some issues may mean you're a human, being a jerk all the time just makes you a jerk.

 

That said, I suppose I should point out that for the most part, IMO, the Iron Age is chiefly over, or at the least, no longer utterly predominate and even some Iron Age comics are working to smooth out those flaws.

[Agent X]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Darn it, I feel so unoriginal now, because Chuckg just summed up my general problem with most Iron Age.

 

My specific problem is the tendency of Iron Age superheroes be total and absolute a$$h***s! Not just one member of the team, but like 90% of them. These are the sort of people that I think make the real world a rotten place to live, and I'm supposed to believe they're trying to make my fictional one better? I do not admire rapists, bigots, murderers and deviants. I do not find callousness a virtue, nor do I think being crude and selfish is something to be proud of. "but it shows they're human!" . No, not when 99% of them turn out like that. Being a jerk sometimes or on some issues may mean you're a human, being a jerk all the time just makes you a jerk.

 

That said, I suppose I should point out that for the most part, IMO, the Iron Age is chiefly over, or at the least, no longer utterly predominate and even some Iron Age comics are working to smooth out those flaws.

It's not even just being a jerk all the time. It's that these characters are the bottom of the barrel. They have no moral compass. I just simply don't believe that is the norm. Nor do I think there is any reason to fixate on protagonists who, at best, are selfish and reckless or are often hideously dysfunctional to the point of sadism. It says something when people start trying to justify the actions of murderers and the like because they have "good intentions."

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

It says something when people start trying to justify the actions of murderers and the like because they have "good intentions."

 

"Road to hell? Well, you go down I-44 about two miles, then hang a left onto state highway F. Three more blocks and turn right with some good intentions, and there you are, on the road to hell."

[Doug McCrae]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I like my superhero roleplaying to be distinctively different from other genres, otherwise what's the point? Every game might as well be the same. If the PCs are just a bunch of mercenaries wielding advanced powers or weaponry, killing things and taking their stuff it doesn't feel much different from a game of Traveller or Vampire or DnD.

[assault]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

First, I play Traveller, which allows you to blow stuff up with nukes, (as long as you don't get caught!). I've already got the lethal power game slot filled.

 

Second, I really, really like old Golden and Silver Age stuff. I mainly collect reprints.

 

Third, the "realistic" stuff I read is mainly street level stuff like Catwoman. I have also read stuff like Zenith and so on. The only characters in these books that would carry on like the Authority are bad guys. Or, at least, in Zenith's case, there was no attempt to whitewash the telepath who became British Prime Minister through using his powers.

 

Fourth, I _have_ actually thought about "what would I do if I had Superman's powers". Frankly, I have no desire to play this in a game, and even less so because I would end up in conflict with all the other players, and probably the GM.

[Evil Toki]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

First off I know I have been crucified because people think I am pro Iron Age or Bronze or Monkey Age… I guess I have never cared about ages, because well I never grew up reading that magical Silver Age of comics, so I have never seen my games as trying to recreate that feel.

 

I just play games.

 

This is why I say it is all just a comic, but I use them for ideas only, not to represent them in my games. My games tend to be on the basis of peoples with powers, who may or may not be heroes. It all depends on the players, and so far it as worked great, as the players define for themselves what they will and will not do.

 

If they kill and decide to make characters with edgy backgrounds, then that is their choice. If they want to be more campy or retro in attitude I let them. I let the characters clash, and so far we have all been pretty adult about it, kind of funny for a game about teens.

 

So in many ways my style is reactionary.

 

I react to the moods and whims of my players. I don’t try to emulate any period or style I guess, I just try and tell a good story. Some are goofy, and others are serious and very gritty. I tend to be a big fan of explaining the behind the scenes action; while also showing that the world is both a scary place, a good place, and a mysterious place as well.

 

So I am not a fan of any particular age… just give me a good story, which is why the debate and the vehement hatred of varying styles is so amusing to me. It should not be such a big deal, let people play what they want to play, read what they want to read, and do what they want to do.

 

Just make it fun.

[nexus]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

There's no reason to defend your preferences. If you don't like it, you don't. If you do, you do. EVERYBODY had been feeling persecuted here. This thread is just to explain how you feel and why in regards to not like the Iron Age/Dark and Gritty style of storytelling.

[Agent X]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Yep, I think Evil Toki brings up an interesting point. Maybe some folks are trying to recreate a Silver Age, early Bronze Age feel or something like that.

 

For me, it's not about recreating the genre. I don't want to play any RPG or read any story where the protagonists are murdering, lying, raping, drug addicts or the writer gets off on the debasement of protagonists. It's really that simple to me. For one thing, there is an awful lot of misogyny in Science Fiction, Fantasy, Action, and Comics these days and I think that's detestable.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

My problem with most Iron Age stuff: if I'm going to read a comic book, I want to read about heroes. Heroes aren't always nice, and they aren't always boy scouts, and they aren't always squeaky clean. Nonetheless, a hero is somebody who, when the shit hits the fan, at least tries to do the right thing.

 

In far too much Iron Age stuff, either the characters aren't heroes, or the comic goes out of its way to show that a person trying to do the right thing is just a deluded fool.

[megaplayboy]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I think sometimes in gaming you have a situation where the PCs are more "Silver" when the GM starts throwing Iron Age style scenarios at them--DNPCs brutalized, NPC heroes murdered, mountains of innocents getting killed.

In those situations, either the campaign ends due to player discontent, or the PCs are compelled to become harder-edged in order to deal with more ruthless opponents.

The other situation that pops up is edgy, killer PCs thrown into four-color campaigns. This is usually self-correcting, as the authorities or other PCs step in to rein in the rogue PC.

I think a lot of players really aren't into the brutality level of an Iron Age game.

[palehorse]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

For the record, I'm an equal opportunity comics lover. If it's well written and reasonably well illustrated - writing always comes first, though - I'm all over it.

 

And I'm not against roleplaying the darker side. I didn't particularly care for the ruleset in Haven: City of Violence, for example, but it's an intereresting setting and I'm looking forward to the d20 Modern interpretation of it. I can have a lot of fun running and playing in games where the characters are flawed (broken, even) and there's no black and white, just shades of grey.

 

That's just not what I want from my supers games, though. It's nice every once in a while to put that aside and play people who are better than me, who never give up, and who will always do the right thing when the chips are down.

[Storm Shadow]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Sorry what is exactly the Iron Age? The 80's comics, 90's or present?

[FenrisUlf]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

My whole problem with Iron Age is the way too many authors tend to use their work as a bully pulpit. I get enough rants about politics and religion outside the comics, thanks. When I want escapism, I want it sans real-world concerns (or rather 'one guy's overheated rhetorical version of the real world').

 

Another thing, realted to the first concern, is the way so many authors show the entire human race (or 99.9% of it) as being such total b@$***ds that it's plainly and simply unbelievable. Yes, people can be creeps and self-serving swine, sometimes lots of people, but when you show everyone in the world as being two steps removed from Ted Bundy, it gets tired fast. (Related is the 'everyone is scum except for my pariah elite, who are so sickeningly noble you want to spew' -- go check out some Elfquest back comics for more on /that/).

[McCoy]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

What I dislike about the Iron Age is the anti-hero, the Dirty Harry / Death Wish type of protagonist, fighting the villians and the law.

 

The Punisher and Wolverine ae interesting characters. The dynamics of Wolverine in a group are interesting, his teammates restrain his worst impulses.

 

Neither of them should have ever had their own titles/

[cutsleeve]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

And now for a bit of sillieness

 

 

flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame [4color] flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame [ironAge] flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame [Everything in between] flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame flame

 

[4color]

[ironAge]

[silver,gold,ruby,saphire,leafgreen,and tiedye]

 

Ok im done :D :D

[RDU Neil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Actually, I hate it because most of the more commonly known Iron Age comics are as unrealistic as the Silver Age comics they are supposedly more realistic than...

 

... just in the opposite direction.

 

Dystopia is equally as fictional a place as Utopia, and for the same reason -- it assumes that human nature breaks 99+% towards a given direction. It's just that its chosen direction is 'down' instead of 'up'.

 

This I totally agree with. I'm no more an "Iron Ager" than I am a "Silver Ager." As I said about the Silver Age, I'll say about the Iron Age... it often establishes a status quo that never changes... the only difference is that the hero fights against that status quo, rather than for it. Both are extreme views... both creating unrealistic worlds that have very closed, set parameters... (one, the world is basically happy and good... the other that the world basically sucks and nothing will make it better). Neither of these is appealing to me, as both create a static environment that limits change.

 

I only argue these points because it's my feeling is that Silver Age supporters tend to take a morally superiors "this is the RIGHT way" attitude... and that gets he P.O'd. The extreme Iron Agers tend to just be immature in the stance that "I gutted that guy and it was KEWL!" and "I pounded him! It was SICK!" and well... that crap is easy enough to just ignore.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Another thing' date=' realted to the first concern, is the way so many authors show the entire human race (or 99.9% of it) as being such total b@$***ds that it's plainly and simply unbelievable.[/quote']Wasn't that more the case in the Marvel Silver Age than the Iron Age? Stan Lee presented the vast majority of the inhabitants of Marvel Earth as being a bunch of prejudiced cunts.

[Chuckg]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

... and they're *not* portrayed that way *now*?

 

At least Stan Lee never had this happen:

 

Magneto -- "People of Earth, I abandon my dreams of conquest. I will merely put up a sanctuary, a safe haven, for mutants who choose to live in another land. It will be a mutant Israel, so to speak. And there, in a land formerly ruled by genocidal hatred, will at last be peace, even if uneasy peace, between man and mutant..."

 

People of Earth-MU -- "FUCK YOU, BITCH! SUCK NUCLEAR MISSILES! MAYBE WE CAN'T KILL YOU, BUT EVERYBODY ELSE IN YOUR SANCTUARY IS GONNA *ROAST* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!"

 

*people of MU-Earth nuke Genosha*

 

Magneto *pulling himself out of the radioactive rubble* -- "... Charles, explain to me why again why *I'm* supposedly the 'wrong' one?"

[Metaphysician]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

One could argue that the X-component of the Marvel universe has been Iron Age for some time, even if/when the rest of the Marvel U isn't.