Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

[Herolover]

Hello all.

 

I like to run heroic level games and since I play a lot with D20 people I explain that Weapon Familiarity is just that you know how to use a weapon without hurting yourself. If you want to show that you are really trained in it and are good with the weapon you should take Combat Skill Levels.

 

This raises the question of what does how many combat skill levels represent? If I have a +3 OCV with swords what, in real world terms, does that mean? Am I good, real good, OMG I can't believe anyone can do that with a sword. What do you use?

 

Do you see what I am asking?

[Fox1]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

Like a similar thread, it all depends upon your own campaign. In some three levels would be excellent, in others it may be a good start at best. As long as it's consistent in your world, you're free to define it as you wish.

 

For mine, I use the same standards no matter the setting (heroic or superheroic).

 

WF: base training with the weapon.

+1: Professional level skill

+2: Marksman

+3: Expert

+4: World Class

 

+5: Second best in World.

+6: Best in World.

 

 

Of course some of this depends upon the character's DEX and base OCV. I've done low DEX characters with rather high Combat Skills levels to show the accurate but flat-footed character.

[aylwin13]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

All of them.

 

 

This is a good question. I'd never really thought about it before. I usually just buy what feels "comfortable" for the character (or what I had points for).

[JohnTaber]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

The guidelines from Fox are not bad but it really depends on the amount of points in the characters too. If you are playing high fantasy with 200 point Heroic level PC then you will want more levels than someone in a low fantasy setting starting at 100 points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

Whatever feels right and works. Most importantly though, you should look at the total OCV/DCV including levels and manouvres. If you have an effective CV 4 or more points above an opponent then you are effectively unbeatable by that opponent, assuming you can damage them at all.

 

The trouble with skills is that they can be applied to offence or defence, which can make calculations difficult. I usually try to work out the most common manouvres in practive and balance levels between OCV and DCV when looking at overall effectiveness.

 

Of course you can use levels for other stuff too: they are quite versatile, but you are still (generally) better off in a supers game buying DEX instead of anything above a 3 point level.

[Old Man]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

Sean has it right. The thing is Combat Levels alone don't mean much without knowing the character's base CV. If it's an incompetant with base CV 2, +6 in Skill Levels only makes him on par with most heroes. Even if +6 is a HUGE bonus is most campaigns, it doesn't do much overall.

[Mike W]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

I generally feel that most characters should not have more than 2 levels that they can apply to a given attack, maybe 3 for their "bread and butter" attack, like Iron Man's repulsors or Spidey's webbing. People with more than 2 or 3 levels applicable to one attack should be very rare.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

Sean has it right. The thing is Combat Levels alone don't mean much without knowing the character's base CV. If it's an incompetant with base CV 2' date=' +6 in Skill Levels only makes him on par with most heroes. Even if +6 is a HUGE bonus is most campaigns, it doesn't do much overall.[/quote']

But it does represent a pathetic normal with superhuman skill. Look I can barely walk without tripping over my feet but give me a sword and I'll stick Nighthawk!

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

Honestly, until you reach +8 in a CSL you are just listing how experienced you are. at +8 CSL you can hit any location on the body you want without problems. Of course, this is with me including PSL in with CSL.

[pinecone]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

I agree that you physical abilitys ahve a part to play...but assuming that your in the general "range" as far as stats go I'd likely say...+1-2 "Hey that dudes good!", +3-4 "Hey! that dudes Awesome", +5+ "Duuuuude" the same range is probibly the same for supers as well, though most supers are better off with stats than with levels....if you want to scare people sometimes +10 with swords is only 30 points...... "I aim for his left eye" "Dude thats minus 8!" "OK...I hit on a 13 or less..." "!"

[prestidigitator]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

I have found that every +2 in d20 converts pretty well to a +1 in Hero, so: every +2 of Base Attack bonus in D&D would equate well to an Overall CSL in Hero; every +1 with a specific weapon equates resonably with a Tight Group CSL in Hero.

 

For example, I would probably give a 10th level D&D Fighter with the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization Feats 5 Overall CSLs and 2-3 CSLs with the appropriate Tight Group.

 

Just thought this might help a little, since you mentioned d20....

[Herolover]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

Thanks for all the ideas and it did help. Just wanting to get an idea of what other people think.

[Fitz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

In my own Heroic campaign, I've set a Skill Level cap at a maximum of +8, beyond which you can't go without supernatural aid. Characters can buy as many levels as they please, but the players know that they're not going to be able to go over +8 OCV/DCV except magically or circumstantially (i.e. they still get the CV benefits of certain combat maneuvres even if they've maxed out their CSLs, and they can still get circumstantial benefits to non-combat skills in excess of +8).

 

Even limiting them to +8 hasn't proven to be much of a brake on their unstoppable threshing-machine-of-deathness though

[pinecone]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

In my own Heroic campaign, I've set a Skill Level cap at a maximum of +8, beyond which you can't go without supernatural aid. Characters can buy as many levels as they please, but the players know that they're not going to be able to go over +8 OCV/DCV except magically or circumstantially (i.e. they still get the CV benefits of certain combat maneuvres even if they've maxed out their CSLs, and they can still get circumstantial benefits to non-combat skills in excess of +8).

 

Even limiting them to +8 hasn't proven to be much of a brake on their unstoppable threshing-machine-of-deathness though

"Let me get this straight...your character concept is you are an unstoppable threashing machine of death?" playa "Yesss" (in monotone)......this brings back memories....

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

For what it is worth:

 

My current character, who is an archer (and is by concept one of the top archers in the world) has 6 skill levels with his combat shooting MA (Defensive strike is the primary attack) and a dex of 29, making his functional OCV 15

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

I liken Combat Skill levels to Belt grades in Karate.

 

SL/Rank

+0/White

+1/Yellow

+2/Green

+3/Blue

+4/Brown

+5/Black(1st Dan)

+6/2cnd Dan

+7/3rd Dan

+8/4th Dan

+9/5th Dan

+10/6th Dan (Grandmaster)

 

Basically, any warrior/martial artist who practices regularly will eventually develop as many as 3 skill levels. Beyond that it takes serious dedication. Beyond the +5 level, you will be considered a "Master" of your artform. +8 or +9 will make you one of the top 10 practitioners in the world. +10 is legendary. Generally only 1 practitioner per artform reaches this zenith in a generation. (In Kenjutsu, this individual is known as a Kensai, or "Sword Saint")

 

The same grade can be used for any non-combat "artform" such as Painting, cooking, dancing, singing etc.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

I liken Combat Skill levels to Belt grades in Karate.

 

SL/Rank

+0/White

+1/Yellow

+2/Green

+3/Blue

+4/Brown

+5/Black(1st Dan)

+6/2cnd Dan

+7/3rd Dan

+8/4th Dan

+9/5th Dan

+10/6th Dan (Grandmaster)

 

Basically, any warrior/martial artist who practices regularly will eventually develop as many as 3 skill levels. Beyond that it takes serious dedication. Beyond the +5 level, you will be considered a "Master" of your artform. +8 or +9 will make you one of the top 10 practitioners in the world. +10 is legendary. Generally only 1 practitioner per artform reaches this zenith in a generation. (In Kenjutsu, this individual is known as a Kensai, or "Sword Saint")

 

The same grade can be used for any non-combat "artform" such as Painting, cooking, dancing, singing etc.

That is an elegant breakdown but, like other posters have already mentioned, it treats DEX as if it exists in a vacuum. Seems like it would make more sense if you could incorporate increases to DEX as an alternative part of the chart (like +3 DEX = 2 levels).

 

HM

[BNakagawa]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

It's all context sensitive.

 

If your teammates and opponents are featuring CVs below 10, then you need enough to function in a manner that fits your character concept.

 

If your teammates and opponents are featuring CVs in the high teens, then you need enough to function in a manner that fits your character concept.

 

Without a good fix on what the CV ranges are really like in your game, no benchmarks are of any use.

 

$0.02

[Mister E]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

I value CSL's exactly the same as I value Skill Levels. And for those I have a system. On the side bar of pages 28 and 29 of H5ed, is the Degrees of Skill chart:

 

8-:Familiarity

11-: Competent

12- to 13-: Skilled

14- to 15-: Very Skilled

16- to 17-: Highly Skilled

18- to 19-: Extremely Skilled

20- or greater: Incredibly Skilled

 

Note:

 

"At 20- or greater, the character's ability with the Skill amazes even other skilled practitioners. The character is perheps the greatest master of the Skill in history. This is the realm of superheroes, gods, heroes of myth, and supergeniuses." ~side-bar, pg. 29, H5ed.

 

On page 26, is the Skill Roll Chart. From that, you will see that the maximum human stat of 30 yields Skill Roll of 15-.

 

So from there, I determined that +5 Skill Levels was to be considered legendary, the peak of humanly achievable skill. Anything beyond this, would be fully 'superhuman'. The grades of skill down from that followed the Degree of Skill chart:

 

+5 Skill Levels/CSL's: Incredibly Skilled

+4 Skill Levels/CSL's: Extremely Skilled

+3 Skill Levels/CSL's: Highly Skilled

+2 Skill Levels/CSL's: Very Skilled

+1 Skill Levels/CSL's: Skilled

+0 Skill Levels/CSL's: Competent

 

Conceivably, any number of combat skill levels could be considered acceptably within human limits... and this could be just the graduated measuring stick for marking where you are, before you break the gage.

 

If you put this into applied/familiar superhero terms, I would state it like this:

Captain America has a DEX of 30, and +5 or more CSL with All Combat, for instance... giving him a base CV of 10, and a max CV of 15. According to the Character Ability Guidelines Table on pg. 15 of H5ed, this would put Cap in the "Very High Powered" Superheroic category, if not better. This to me, fits where in my mind, the veteran/leader of the Avengers Captain America should be... roughly.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

That is an elegant breakdown but, like other posters have already mentioned, it treats DEX as if it exists in a vacuum. Seems like it would make more sense if you could incorporate increases to DEX as an alternative part of the chart (like +3 DEX = 2 levels).

 

HM

 

Actually, it doesn't treat DEX as if it exists in a vacuum.

 

I've come to the conclusion that I view DEX differently than 90% of the posters on this message board.

 

I treat DEX as Agility, Quickness, Manual Dexterity and to a small degree, natural fighting skill.

 

But DEX can only take you so far.

 

Martial Arts and Skill Levels, on the other hand, represent practiced skill. These are what represent an individual who dedicates time and effort into mastering combat. (or whatever)

 

I like the idea of having the "Ancient Master" with a bad back. He's got a Dex of 10, at most. However, he's got every manuever for 5 different Martial Styles and 8 or so skill levels in Hand to Hand combat. It doesn't matter if the guy he's fighting has a DEX 20, chances are, the old man is going to humble him. The way a lot of others on this board view DEX, they would give the old man a Dex of 18 and say its 5pts lower than they would give him because he's old and got a bad back. To me, that silly. But thats just how I see it.

 

My viewpoint can probably be best summed up by the Character Creation proceedure in the RPG Mekton Zeta. They have two basic character "types" (as opposed to Character Archtypes or character classes) and those are:

 

Youth and Speed: The character gets a bunch of points for his basic characteristics, but starts with lower skill points. He's pretty good at just about everything becauase he's young and healthy, but he lacks experience and it will show when facing a veteran.

 

Age and Experience: The character gets fewer points for his basic characteristics, but gets a bundle for skills. He's not as fast and strong as Youth and Speed, but he's got experience to spare.

 

Thats how I see it. Youth and Speed gets high Dex, but not very many Skill levels. Age and Experience gets lower Dex, but buttloads of Skill levels. In a fight they are probably pretty close to 50/50, but I garuntee you that Age and Experience is a whole lot more versatile than Youth and Speed, and will probably have a few tricks up his sleeve that will tilt the odds....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Combat Skill Levels....how many should you have?

 

Actually, it doesn't treat DEX as if it exists in a vacuum.

 

I've come to the conclusion that I view DEX differently than 90% of the posters on this message board.

 

I treat DEX as Agility, Quickness, Manual Dexterity and to a small degree, natural fighting skill.

 

But DEX can only take you so far.

 

Martial Arts and Skill Levels, on the other hand, represent practiced skill. These are what represent an individual who dedicates time and effort into mastering combat. (or whatever)

 

I like the idea of having the "Ancient Master" with a bad back. He's got a Dex of 10, at most. However, he's got every manuever for 5 different Martial Styles and 8 or so skill levels in Hand to Hand combat. It doesn't matter if the guy he's fighting has a DEX 20, chances are, the old man is going to humble him. The way a lot of others on this board view DEX, they would give the old man a Dex of 18 and say its 5pts lower than they would give him because he's old and got a bad back. To me, that silly. But thats just how I see it.

 

My viewpoint can probably be best summed up by the Character Creation proceedure in the RPG Mekton Zeta. They have two basic character "types" (as opposed to Character Archtypes or character classes) and those are:

 

Youth and Speed: The character gets a bunch of points for his basic characteristics, but starts with lower skill points. He's pretty good at just about everything becauase he's young and healthy, but he lacks experience and it will show when facing a veteran.

 

Age and Experience: The character gets fewer points for his basic characteristics, but gets a bundle for skills. He's not as fast and strong as Youth and Speed, but he's got experience to spare.

 

Thats how I see it. Youth and Speed gets high Dex, but not very many Skill levels. Age and Experience gets lower Dex, but buttloads of Skill levels. In a fight they are probably pretty close to 50/50, but I garuntee you that Age and Experience is a whole lot more versatile than Youth and Speed, and will probably have a few tricks up his sleeve that will tilt the odds....

Fair enough.

 

Your chart reminded me of the old master in Kill Bill Part 2 (as well as some of the characters in the new movie Kung Fu Hustle) who appeared to have either an incredible amount of DEX or Lightning Reflexes. My interpretation leans into the fantastic where yours appears to be far more grounded in realism.

 

It just seems to echo the comments of others that context matters.

 

HM