DEX: and the Marvel Universe

[Mister E]

"Where, on the DEX chart, do the expert posters of the HERO GAMES Discussion Boards, believe the iconic heroes of the Marvel Universe should fall?"

 

I am especially interested to learn how far past DEX 30 you are willing to go, to accurately represent those characters with potentially super-human DEX: such as Beast; Nightcrawler; Spider-Man; Quicksilver; Thor; Rogue; Dracula; Hercules; and so on... if in fact you would even do so.

 

The purpose of this thread, is to help each other develop a keener, more generally agreed upon, understanding of the Dexterity (DEX) Characteristic, and how it applies to both the Marvel and Champions Universes, in HERO System, 5th ed. game terms.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

To tell the truth, I tend to play in a stat inflated game. I basically give the "elite humans" 30, superhumans, such as Spiderman 35, Quicksilver 4-42.

But, I've seen very convincing representations at much lower levels. If you are going to give an artificial limit (250,350,or 500 pts) then you lose some of the filler, and become much more deliberate. Cap 23 Spidey 30 Pietro 33...

 

But...I think I once....let me look in my old stuff....

 

 

Dexterity

Score Example:

0-5 Really un-agile: wood, clay, other inanimate objects

6-8 Not Nimble: Blob, Giganto,

9-12 Average: Juggernaut,

13-16 Above Average: Zangief,

17-22 Pro Athelete Agile: Dan Habiki, Thor, Obsidian, Bulldozer, Animal Man, Cyborg, Hulk,

Abomination, E. Honda, Cyclops,

23-27 Prime Human: Ken Masters, Ryu, Crusader, Jaguar, Blue Beetle, Robin III, Vandal

Savage, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Nighthawk, Starfire, Swordsman, Sabertooth, Cheshire Cat,

28-30 Maximum Human: Captain America, Chun Li, Cammy White, Balrog (Vega in america),

Fei Long, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Seeker, Dragon Master, Green Dragon, Black Panther, Wolverine,

31-36 Defies Human Ability: Beast, Nightcrawler, Spiderwoman(Girl), Midnighter,

Blacklash, Marvel Family, Superman Family, Hyperion, Gladiator, Gambit, Powergirl,

37-45 Really Defies Human Ability: Spiderman, Quicksilver, Whizzer, Flash(es), Silver Surfer,

Mercury, Makkari, Runner,

 

I really don’t go any higher than that.

Though to be truthful Many of the above might have Lightning Reflexes as well.

+2 for Normal - Agent

+4 for Superpowered

+6 for highly trained

+10 or more for Speedsters.

[Starlord]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

To tell the truth, I tend to play in a stat inflated game. I basically give the "elite humans" 30, superhumans, such as Spiderman 35, Quicksilver 4-42.

But, I've seen very convincing representations at much lower levels. If you are going to give an artificial limit (250,350,or 500 pts) then you lose some of the filler, and become much more deliberate. Cap 23 Spidey 30 Pietro 33...

 

But...I think I once....let me look in my old stuff....

 

 

Dexterity

Score Example:

0-5 Really un-agile: wood, clay, other inanimate objects

6-8 Not Nimble: Blob, Giganto,

9-12 Average: Juggernaut,

13-16 Above Average: Zangief,

17-22 Pro Athelete Agile: Dan Habiki, Thor, Obsidian, Bulldozer, Animal Man, Cyborg, Hulk,

Abomination, E. Honda, Cyclops,

23-27 Prime Human: Ken Masters, Ryu, Crusader, Jaguar, Blue Beetle, Robin III, Vandal

Savage, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Nighthawk, Starfire, Swordsman, Sabertooth, Cheshire Cat,

28-30 Maximum Human: Captain America, Chun Li, Cammy White, Balrog (Vega in america),

Fei Long, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Seeker, Dragon Master, Green Dragon, Black Panther, Wolverine,

31-36 Defies Human Ability: Beast, Nightcrawler, Spiderwoman(Girl), Midnighter,

Blacklash, Marvel Family, Superman Family, Hyperion, Gladiator, Gambit, Powergirl,

37-45 Really Defies Human Ability: Spiderman, Quicksilver, Whizzer, Flash(es), Silver Surfer,

Mercury, Makkari, Runner,

 

I really don’t go any higher than that.

Though to be truthful Many of the above might have Lightning Reflexes as well.

+2 for Normal - Agent

+4 for Superpowered

+6 for highly trained

+10 or more for Speedsters.

 

That is pretty close to how I'd portray except we completely disagree on how speedsters are portrayed. I don't believe they necessarily have high DEX scores, just high speed and probably Lightning Reflexes.

[Bloodstone]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

It really varies quite a bit from game to game. I use the Captain America standard and go from there.

 

I've seen Cap defined as low as 20 Dex and as high as 35, depending largely on point costs and perceptions of NCM. I usually place Wolverine about 6 points less (so 14 -29), Daredevil or Hawkeye about 3 points less (17-32), Beast or Gambit about on par (20-35), Nightcrawler or Spiderman about 6 points higher (26-41) and somone like Quicksilver should be about 9 points higher (29-44).

 

Quicksilver (or his equivelent) generally sets the "max" DEX for a given campaign, baring space gods or the like.

 

Just to put a different spin on things though, I've also seen Quicksilver writen up with a MUCH lower Dex then Cap, but lots of CSL's for DCV and skads of Lightning Reflexes. This isn't very point efficent, but the argument was that Pietro isn't all that agile or coordinated, just ultra fast. So in a way I can sorta see the idea there, even if I deffinitly wouldn't do it that way myself (just too costly for my tastes).

 

Oddly, I think the Highest DEX I have seen in a recntly published Champs product is for Charm from Galactic Champions. She has a 35 and she isn't even a speedster, just a martial artist/thief.

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I would tend to go with something more along these lines...

 

Spider-man DEX 35 (+DCV a plenty, requires Spider-Sense roll)

Silver Surfer, Nightcrawler DEX 33

Beast DEX 32

Quicksilver DEX 30 (+ Lightning Reflexes, etc.)

Hulk 27 (He's not slow!!!)

Cap 25

 

Etc. I'm sure you can figure out the rest from there!

[Fox1]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

The purpose of this thread' date=' is to help each other develop a keener, more generally agreed upon, understanding of the Dexterity (DEX) Characteristic, and how it applies to both the Marvel and Champions Universes, in HERO System, 5th ed. game terms.[/quote']

 

Not only impossible (you can't get three internet posters to agree on the same thing at the same time), not even desirable. HERO System is at its core a system where each individual group makes their own decisions on how things are represented.

 

 

For what it's worth, here's a near random sampling of my Marvel Campaign (DEX and SPD are interelated and it's best to know both values, so I'll give both).

 

 

Typical Superhero: 18 Dex, 4 SPD

 

 

Phoenix, Thor, Sue Richards, The Thing, Havok: 18 DEX, 4 SPD

 

Cyclops, Colossus: 20 Dex, 4 SPD

 

Psylocke: 20 DEX, 5 SPD

 

Storm: 23 DEX, 4 SPD

 

Nick Fury, Silver Sable, Ms Marvel, Wolverine: 23 DEX, 5 SPD

 

Iron Fist: 23 DEX, 6 SPD

 

Captain America: 25 DEX, 7 SPD

 

Gambit: 27 DEX, 5 SPD

 

Nightcrawler, Daredevil: 28 DEX, 6 SPD

 

Quicksilver: 28 DEX, 8 SPD

 

Beast: 33 DEX, 6 SPD

 

Spiderman: 35 DEX, 8 SPD

[Lord Liaden]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

There are two basic ways to approach this issue: one is to translate the stats given in official Marvel or DC RPGs to HERO terms, in which case you'll have something with documentation to support it. The downside is that the relative relationship of stats between characters tends to change somewhat depending on which edition of the games you take them from - even the official designers often disagree. And of course, you yourself may not agree with the official interpretations.

 

The other way is to survey what HERO gamers have been giving these characters in the way of stats, and there I have to agree with Fox1. The likelihood of even rough agreement is extremely small; interpretation varies widely.

 

If you'd like you can follow the link in my signature below for numerous examples of both approaches. Check the listings for the individual games for guidelines to conversion, or scroll down to "Published Comic Book Characters" at the bottom of the list for many character writeups.

[TheEmerged]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Speaking as someone from the "Batman & Captain America are Dex 30" school, my own conversion of Spiderman (Arachnaman) clocks in at DEX 53, with the campaign-max DEX defined as being DEX 60. The difference is that he doesn't have the speedster tricks -- but this is how he's depicted in the comics, as being virtually untouchable by non-area attacks.

 

Nightcrawler I'd peg in the same territory -- except he has some actual speedster tricks. Sure, he "teleports" instead of running fast, but in practice most of the effects are the same. In game mechanics, does it really matter if your +DCV levels are due to running out of the way or teleporting?

 

Beast I've got pegged in the 43-48 range. I know he's been shown in the RPG materials as being on Spidey & Nightcrawlers level, but I don't see this in the way he's depicted most of the time.

 

Daredevil I view in the high 20's. Someone earlier suggested 28, sounds about right to me.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Our current run looks something like this, IIRC:

 

Silver Surfer: 40

Quicksilver: 39

Spider-man: 35

Nightcrawler: 33

Beast: 32

Captain American: 30

Black Panther: 29

Daredevil: 28

Ironfist: 27

Wolverine: 26

Cyclops: 25

Ironman: 24

Hawkeye: 24

Black Widow: 24

Angel: 24

Falcon: 23

Human Torch: 23

Vision: 22

Thor: 21

Rogue: 21

Mr. Fantastic: 21

Storm: 20

Invisible Woman: 20

Thing: 18

Hulk: 17

[Blue]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Ah, some fightin' material

Actually, I haven't given it much thought since I've only brought in known characters once, and that was in my old campaign.

 

Keep in mind I've not referred to any references, this is just my surface impression, and would likely change if I actually made such characters...

 

33 Beast

27-28 Nightcrawler

28-30 Spider-Man

35-36 Quicksilver

26 Thor

24 Rogue

21 Dracula

20 Hercules

 

Not much overlap in my apparaisals. Just Spiderman & Nightcrawler.

[Edsel]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Seems like everyone's got their own ideas on this. We used to play a lot of silver-age Marvel stuff converted to Hero System. I still have a bunch of old character sheets that we did. Below is a selection of some of them and the Dexterity scores that we used.

 

18 Absorbing Man, Emma Frost, Juggernaut, Klaw, Baron Zemo II, Hulk, Banshee, Cannonball, Havok, Iceman, Jean Grey (Marvel Girl), Polaris, Hercules, Thor, Doctor Strange

20 Doctor Doom, Magneto, Titania, Crimson Dynamo, Gladiator, Colossus, Cyclops, Jubilee, Psylocke, Rogue, Wasp, Falcon, Moonknight

23 Batroc the Leaper, Bullseye, Crossbones, Silver Dreadnoughts, Ultron-11, Archangel, Bishop, Gambit, Storm, Wolverine, Black Knight, Hawkeye, Ms Marvel

25 Nightcrawler, Captian America, Iron Fist

28 Beast, Daredevil

35 Spiderman

[Bloodstone]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

There are two basic ways to approach this issue: one is to translate the stats given in official Marvel or DC RPGs to HERO terms' date=' in which case you'll have something with documentation to support it. The downside is that the relative relationship of stats between characters tends to change somewhat depending on which edition of the games you take them from - even the official designers often disagree. And of course, you yourself may not agree with the official interpretations.[/quote']

 

Ain't that the truth!

 

For example, in the old Marvel Super Heroes RPG (by TSR), Quicksilver had an Agility of Unearthly (100) Nightcrawler and Spiderman were Amazing (50), Captain America, Daredevil, Gambit and Beast were Incredible (40) and Wolverine, Black Widow and Elektra were all Remarkable (30). Then again, Fighting skill was it's own seperate stat.

 

In the new (and no longer supported) Marvel Universe RPG, Spiderman has an Agility of 6, Nightcrawler and Beast are 5, Captian America and Daredevil are 4, Gambit is a 3 and Quicksilver is a 2.

[Guest C--]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Blob: 8-10 (plus HTH levels)

Juggy: 10-15 (plus HTH levels)

 

Both of these guys seem quite slow in the comics. People never miss them.

 

Slow, no name bricks (Forearm from the MLF, etc), psychics w/ little training: 18-20

Most bricks & EBers (majority of the marvel u): 23-25

Quasar, Warbird, Thor, other quick characters: 26-27

Max human martial artists: 28-30

Mr Fantastic: 27-30 (he's got a lot better stats than people want to give him)

Surfer: 33 (I've seen people say he's faster than this, but I just don't see it--he's got Speed and movement, but Dex isn't that superhuman)

Beast, Nightcrawler: 33

Spidey: 33-35 (plus DCV levels w/ Spidey-sense--my writeup of him varies depending on my mood)

Quicksilver 33-35

 

for DC:

 

Flash: 38-42 (note that, unlike many characters with less Dex, Flash has virtually no combat levels that add to his DCV--he's all Dex)

Superman: 35 (note that Supes nearly always holds his action as a matter of course, and often keeps his DCV lower so he can get a bonus on PRE attacks when he shrugs off enemies' attacks)

WW, Deathstroke: 33

Batman, Nightwing, Plastic Man: 30

Green Lantern: 26

Martian Manhunter: 23 (his superspeed doesn't seem to be useful for going first)

[laxrulz777]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I'm a bit curious as to the justification for putting daredevil higher than cap... I can see giving daredevil some DCV levels or something but there's no way that cap (pretty much peak human for all the physical stats) could be less dexterous than daredevil (whose powers are pretty much restricted to heightened senses)... am i missing something here?

[Slim_McCoy]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Blob: 8-10 (plus HTH levels)

Juggy: 10-15 (plus HTH levels)

 

Both of these guys seem quite slow in the comics. People never miss them.

 

 

I'd have to say that they are both big enough targets to warrant a DCV penalty from Growth. They're not clumsy or even uncoordinated, but it's like shooting at the broad side of a barn.

 

YMMV.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

That is pretty close to how I'd portray except we completely disagree on how speedsters are portrayed. I don't believe they necessarily have high DEX scores' date=' just high speed and probably Lightning Reflexes.[/quote']

I can go either way on the Dex for Speedsters...I wrote that a couple of years ago. But it seems that after all is said and done, it's just easier for me to buy Dex and Spd for my Speedsters than SPD, Lightning Reflexes, Levels With DCV, "Missed ME" style defenses and such.

[fbdaury]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I'm a bit curious as to the justification for putting daredevil higher than cap... I can see giving daredevil some DCV levels or something but there's no way that cap (pretty much peak human for all the physical stats) could be less dexterous than daredevil (whose powers are pretty much restricted to heightened senses)... am i missing something here?

 

Because Daredevil would pretty much be human peak agility as well,and unlike Cap, he earned his as opposed to it being handed to him Go look at some of the things that Daredevil routinley does and tell me he'd not equal to Cap who, for all these protestations of agility,. rarely seems to actually do anything really agile- his abilities seem more training and experience(represented as CSLs) than raw dex, while Daredevil is all about the dex. But, that's just my take on the situation.YMMV.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Because Daredevil would pretty much be human peak agility as well' date='and unlike Cap, he earned his as opposed to it being handed to him Go look at some of the things that Daredevil routinley does and tell me he'd not equal to Cap who, for all these protestations of agility,. rarely seems to actually do anything really [i']agile[/i]- his abilities seem more training and experience(represented as CSLs) than raw dex, while Daredevil is all about the dex. But, that's just my take on the situation.YMMV.

Daredevil didn't earn his. The isotopes mutated his dna slightly. That has been the official stance for a decade or more.

[fbdaury]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Daredevil didn't earn his. The isotopes mutated his dna slightly. That has been the official stance for a decade or more.

 

 

Which affected his senses, not his physical conditioning. I've read alot of Daredevil and have yet to see his physical strength, speed and agility referred to as anything but talent+conditioning+constant usage.

[Greywind]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

A man of Daredevil's build shouldn't be able to roll a limo single-handedly, but he's done that and recently. The changes that occured to Daredevil were senses, strength and agility. This goes back to the very beginning. A lot of writers have ignored the strength and agility factor. Doesn't change the fact that they were there from inception.

[Eosin]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Just repeat what Fox1 and Edsel wrote.

 

DISCLOSURE: While we don't all game together anymore before moves and such we all did play in the same long standing game.

[sinanju]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

"Where, on the DEX chart, do the expert posters of the HERO GAMES Discussion Boards, believe the iconic heroes of the Marvel Universe should fall?"

 

I am especially interested to learn how far past DEX 30 you are willing to go, to accurately represent those characters with potentially super-human DEX: such as Beast; Nightcrawler; Spider-Man; Quicksilver; Thor; Rogue; Dracula; Hercules; and so on... if in fact you would even do so.

 

I'd give Spider-Man, Nightcrawler and Beast superhuman DEX for sure, though Spider-Man would get the highest one, in my opinion. And I'm talking DEX 30-33 for Spidey, and down to about 27 at the low end for this bunch.

 

Rogue and Dracula would probably qualify, but not by much. Quicksilver, too. He's FAST, but not necessarily super-agile (it's amazing how often super-fast characters get taken out by attacks that you'd think they could dodge). DEX 21-24

 

Thor and Hercules would get high but normal DEX scores. Their schtick is being inhumanly strong and tough. Yes, they're exceptionally good at HTH combat, but that's a matter of skill (skill levels), not inherently superhuman DEX.

 

So let it be written, so let it be done.

[Gary]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I'd benchmark someone like Cap or Daredevil at 30 Dex. That gives them the ability to not be hit by your typical 11-15 Dex AIM or HYDRA agents with 1-2 CSLs even when they're focusing (not putting CSLs in DCV) on a primary target such as Red Skull or Kingpin. 30 also has the advantage of being at the top end of Legendary Human.

 

And then I'd scale everyone from there.

[Bloodstone]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Quicksilver, too. He's FAST, but not necessarily super-agile (it's amazing how often super-fast characters get taken out by attacks that you'd think they could dodge). DEX 21-24

 

Same sort of thing happens to the Flash. I think a big part of that is that nither character has super senses or martial arts built into ther concept. As fast as they are, they just aren't shown being that aware of the battlefield, so they get blindsided or distracted a lot.

 

Other times it's just bad writing though...

[Guest C--]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I'd have to say that they are both big enough targets to warrant a DCV penalty from Growth. They're not clumsy or even uncoordinated, but it's like shooting at the broad side of a barn.

 

YMMV.

 

Yeah, but they also seem to go last. I've just never seen them do anything that merited even a good Dex. To me, they're easiest to mimic with some OCV levels. YMMV.