CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

[MitchellS]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I've stated the reasons before' date=' mainly since M&Ms production values starting blowing HERO system out of the water, this thread isn't the place for another debate. I'm just giving an answer to the original question. [/quote']

I agree with you. DOJ just doesn't have the volume to publish in full color [unless you're willing to pay $50.00 for a CU, Update].

[name_tamer]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

You wouldn't pay $7.40 more. You'd pay $18.99 more because DOJ only makes about 40%. So if it costs 7.40 to print and DOJ wants to make 6.60 in profit that means the book costs $35.00 before you start adding in full color art' date=' writing, editing, shipping, layout, and all the other costs of the book. Each additional $5.00 in cost adds about $12.50 to the cover price.[/quote']

 

Your response is very interesting. Where are you getting these figures? Where are you getting information about DOJ's margins? What is the basis for your assumption that DOJ would want to make the same percentage margin on a book with higher printing costs? (Also, what is the baseline, non-color printing cost? -- the quote you originally gave listed $7.40 per copy as the total printing cost)

 

I'm more curious in an academic way than anything else. Steve has said there won't be any color, and I can accept that, and I assume that's because DOJ assumes they won't sell enough units of a color book to make it worthwhile. I even think they're probably right, based on my "gut", but not based on any hard numbers. But you seem to *have* such numbers, and I find that very intriguing.

 

This will be my last post on this topic, because this is very OT for this thread, and our conjectures on DOJ's business strategy should probably not be derailing a "sticky" thread.

[MitchellS]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Your response is very interesting. Where are you getting these figures? Where are you getting information about DOJ's margins? What is the basis for your assumption that DOJ would want to make the same percentage margin on a book with higher printing costs? (Also' date=' what is the baseline, non-color printing cost? -- the quote you originally gave listed $7.40 per copy as the total printing cost) [/quote']

Well the 40% is an industry standard. Retailers generally make 100% [thus meaning they purchase the books at 50%]. Distributors generally make around 10%. As I said, this is basically standard. There is, of course, shipping fees involved as well but any guess on that for DOJ would be pure conjecture.

 

I have no idea what DOJ wishes to make in profit. The old rule was that you retail a book for 10 times the printing cost but that has not been used in a number of years due to the increase in paper costs. Perhaps DOJ only wants to make $2.00 per book but when selling a print run of 2,000 books they probably want to make more than $4,000.00 on it [$4,000 doesn't even cover payroll for 5 people in a month].

 

I didn't quote black and white printing costs because I only wanted to know about full color when I started my plans. I would anticipate a 2,000 unit b&w run costing about 3.00 per [you can pod print 10 books for $.02 per page plus cover from the same pod printer DOJ used to print the Pulp Hero hardcovers].

 

A 200 page book is going to need about 70 illustrations [assuming about 1 every 3 pages] and a cover. You can figure full color illustrations at about $100.00 - $200.00 per and a decent cover at about $1,000. The math is left up to you. Of course you still need the words, the layout, and the shipping to deal with. Any of that information you can find anywhere on the web if you want to put in the effort.

 

I decided that a 2,000 unit run was not worth the trouble of color for myself. By the time I dropped $15,000 into printing and $10,000 into art/cover I was looking at a $32.00 book before I even calculated in writing, layout, shipping, and profit [and I do want to make more than $2.00 per book ].

[gojira]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Not to derail or anything, but would making 50% of the pages BW help, finacially? I'm just curious. Maybe we should start a "printing costs" thread in the NGD...

[Captain Emu]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Perhaps, also to realign the topic a bit, I do believe they were lookign for content requests, not production requests. Though production values is a valid topic, but I agree it should be taken to another thread.

[Guest OneEyedMan]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I vote for Strike Force Earth, art by Storn.

 

'Cause a Storn version of Phos-boss would rock my free adult world.

 

-J

[Balabanto]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I also prefer color artwork. Color Artwork is a marketing tool. That's all it is. I firmly believe that if you're going to have a comic book roleplaying game, that it shouldn't be a black and white game.

 

Stan Lee and John Romita didn't publish Fantastic Four in B+W. If they did, the world as we know it would be much different today.

 

Also, dozens of people who don't play the game will just buy the book because it has cool art. You think I'm kidding, but I'm not. It's all marketing.

[SirViss]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

...

Stan Lee and John Romita didn't publish Fantastic Four in B+W. If they did, the world as we know it would be much different today.

...

As a counter-point: I collected the Fantastic Four in B&W for about 10 years (and Iron Man, and Spider-Man, and...). Where I used to live (in Quebec north of Montreal), you could only get comics (Marvel, at least) in french, and they were in Black and White. Eventually, they were colored, and two years after that the french ones were discontinued. This was all about two decades ago.

[Captain Emu]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I also prefer color artwork. Color Artwork is a marketing tool. That's all it is. I firmly believe that if you're going to have a comic book roleplaying game, that it shouldn't be a black and white game.

 

Stan Lee and John Romita didn't publish Fantastic Four in B+W. If they did, the world as we know it would be much different today.

 

Also, dozens of people who don't play the game will just buy the book because it has cool art. You think I'm kidding, but I'm not. It's all marketing.

 

I would say that this is not exactly comparing apples and apples here. I mean, comics and gaming products have different markets as well as target numbers. What is going to pay off for one, is not going to pay off for another.

 

Also, comics are printing about 30 pages per issue per month and the artwork is a much greater portion of what sells them. If comics were trying to produce 200+ pages at any given time including huge bodies of text I doubt they'd have as much color as they do.

 

It just doesn't compute the same.

[MitchellS]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I would say that this is not exactly comparing apples and apples here. I mean' date=' comics and gaming products have different markets as well as target numbers. What is going to pay off for one, is not going to pay off for another.[/quote']

I'll completely disagree with you. M&M is, in part, as popular as it is because thousands of superhero gamers put down their b&w games and picked up the color M&M books. Color gets people in the door. Game quality keeps them in the building. M&M didn't make superhero fans out of D&D players. It mostly stoled those fans from other superhero game systems. Presentation was a huge factor in that.

 

There's a reason why most of the major game publishers push full color books when they can. It's not because they make more profit per book [the profit margin per book stays about the same whether b&w or color] it's because they sell more books when they're in color.

 

Either way it's a moot point. Hero Games doesn't have the volume necessary to publish economically in full color. I'm sure there are fans who would be willing to pay $75.00 for a full color Champions Universe Update [like me] but most won't. So why argue over it?

[Captain Emu]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Either way it's a moot point. Hero Games doesn't have the volume necessary to publish economically in full color. I'm sure there are fans who would be willing to pay $75.00 for a full color Champions Universe Update [like me] but most won't. So why argue over it?

 

Not that I agree, but you are right that there isn't much point in discussing.

 

Nuff said.

[Kirby]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I'm sure it's too late, but I would like to see an update with Taipan. Either a plot involving someone (or group) trying to release him, or adding another of the

Five Dealy Venoms

into the mix.

 

 

[Kirby]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

2) The scope of the book itself- while I appreciate the way Scott and others think' date=' the publishing reality is this is a 160-page book that needs to be done by around Thanksgiving.[/quote']

Is Thanksgiving still the ETA?

[Enforcer84]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Re: Production...

All I know is I keep buying the stupid M&M books and never using the damn things stupid cool colored art.

 

Re: Content

Round out some of the good guys. I agree with everyone on the Grond needs to be tougher. hehe you should see mine.

 

Champions Update

It'd be nice to see some team movement beyond Kinetik joining. The Comics don't keep the same lineups for years and the various writeups Darren did in digital Hero showed that the membership of the Sentinels and Fabulous Five was far from static.

 

Also new teams come and go and it's been what? almost five years?

That' a lot of blank canvas to play with.

 

Perhaps a few characters get writeups, a few get rewrites, and many more get small updates kind of like the lesser write ups in Kingdom of Champions or Strike Force. Especially for existing characters.

[MitchellS]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Champions Update

It'd be nice to see some team movement beyond Kinetik joining. The Comics don't keep the same lineups for years and the various writeups Darren did in digital Hero showed that the membership of the Sentinels and Fabulous Five was far from static.

I agree here. The idea that teams must remain static to not interrupt the status quo of the CU is not part of the superhero genre. I'd also like to see them go through some changes. Defender and Witchcraft have a future history so they can't change too much but that doesn't mean the rest of the characters can't go through a "radiation accident" or have something else unforeseen happen to them.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I agree that Grond needs to be tougher.

 

You can't fool me, Ripper and Obelisque would both beat him, yet he has all the reputation; it's time to back it up.

 

If it were up to me, I would use the Ultimate Brick version and then give him Martial Arts simulating his combat experience and maybe +5-10 DEF and then I would be happy.

 

I would like to see updates to other villains as well, and perhaps one villain per each threat level moves up one level. For example, maybe the Slug is now Omega while Ankylosaur is now Delta.

[gojira]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

And an animated flip-book of Foxbat in the corners.

[PhantomGM2602]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

How about some of the older Villians that we've played against and want to play against in the 3rd ed Enemies books. or is it too much to ask of us old timers out here?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

How about some of the older Villians that we've played against and want to play against in the 3rd ed Enemies books. or is it too much to ask of us old timers out here?

Probably not too much to ask, but probably not available to DoJ to use.

 

Two of the biggest reasons they don't use a particular older property is 1) It just doesn't fit in their current vision of what the CU should be, but also 2) They might not own those particular characters' Intellectual Property and can't use them in anything for 5th Edition.

 

Thems the breaks.

 

You'd probably be better served saying what you liked about those old villains/characters in particular and telling them what you'd like to see specifically in that vein for future products, rather than just ask for the old characters to be updated.

 

TB

[Sketchpad]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

How about some of the older Villians that we've played against and want to play against in the 3rd ed Enemies books. or is it too much to ask of us old timers out here?

I won't de-rail the thread too much, but comment on the fact that I'd like to see some of the older characters myself ... but I won't hold my breath. I think in some ways we were lucky to see what we have in the Champions books ...

[Kirby]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I won't de-rail the thread too much' date=' but comment on the fact that I'd like to see some of the older characters myself ... but I won't hold my breath. I think in some ways we were lucky to see what we have in the Champions books ... [/quote']I agree. What really gets me though, is that HERO could have made it quite simple on themselves on characters they [read: Steve, I'm sure] never wanted to see again. Seeker could have been the first killed by Dr. Destroyer, C.L.O.W.N. could have accidentally ("accidentally on purpose") been the catalyst that started the big battle in Detroit with a pie in the face or somesuch.

 

Any heroes or villains could have easily been insterted into the background of other characters with their death. Who all died while fighting Destroyer? Who did Taipan kill? Who has Lazer killed? Who has Nebula sent to Duress? Instead of the several villains who have eliminated unnamed heroes, civilians, etc., HERO could have taken names from previous releases and inputted them there. It would/could have put an emotional connection to some of the background stories as well as doing the de facto nix on a number of NPCs.

 

IMHO, I would have much rather read that Seeker, Quantum, Jaguar, Solitaire, and Obsidian died fighting Destroyer and that Defender rebuilt the team, rather than Defender starts creating a team after the fact.

 

But then again, I'm not in charge.

[Lemurion]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I agree. What really gets me though' date=' is that HERO [i']could[/i] have made it quite simple on themselves on characters they [read: Steve, I'm sure] never wanted to see again. Seeker could have been the first killed by Dr. Destroyer, C.L.O.W.N. could have accidentally ("accidentally on purpose") been the catalyst that started the big battle in Detroit with a pie in the face or somesuch.

 

Any heroes or villains could have easily been insterted into the background of other characters with their death. Who all died while fighting Destroyer? Who did Taipan kill? Who has Lazer killed? Who has Nebula sent to Duress? Instead of the several villains who have eliminated unnamed heroes, civilians, etc., HERO could have taken names from previous releases and inputted them there. It would/could have put an emotional connection to some of the background stories as well as doing the de facto nix on a number of NPCs.

 

IMHO, I would have much rather read that Seeker, Quantum, Jaguar, Solitaire, and Obsidian died fighting Destroyer and that Defender rebuilt the team, rather than Defender starts creating a team after the fact.

 

But then again, I'm not in charge.

 

I think they would rather have done it that way too, but they may not have been able to. One problem is that they don't own the rights to all the characters in previous editions. If they don't own the rights, they can't use the character and won't get into a sticky situation by even using the name as a casualty earlier and then having to say that "Oh, no that's not Seeker, the Australian Ninja, that's someone completely different who they showed dying in the Battle of Detroit on the 4E BBB cover."

 

Plus there are characters such as CLOWN that Steve's doing the "make it never happened" thing to. He doesn't like them-- doesn't want them in the game at all and so is exercising his prerogative and leaving them out.

 

I don't know why I'm worrying about what will be in it, I'm buying the book anyway

[Kirby]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

I think they would rather have done it that way too' date=' but they may not have been able to. One problem is that they don't own the rights to all the characters in previous editions.[/quote']Yes, we've heard that mentioned over and over on why they can't reuse certain characters; however, it's irrelevant to characters they do have the rights to, but don't want to use.

 

If they don't own the rights' date=' they can't use the character and won't get into a sticky situation by even using the name as a casualty earlier and then having to say that "Oh, no that's not Seeker, the Australian Ninja, that's someone completely different who they showed dying in the Battle of Detroit on the 4E BBB cover."[/quote']Except I would think they do have the rights to Seeker since he's not only been drawn and mentioned in the 5th Ed HERO books (such as "the Death of Seeker" for the Champions comic), especially since we've all see him every now and then in the upper left corner of our screen when viewing the HERO Boards. Otherwise, they've been blatantly flaunting copyright infringement.

 

Plus there are characters such as CLOWN that Steve's doing the "make it never happened" thing to. He doesn't like them-- doesn't want them in the game at all and so is exercising his prerogative and leaving them out.

Yes, the reverse of the lame Marvel trick. Instead of "they never died" it's pretending "they never existed." If CLOWN were killed off, that would be a solid foundation on the argument of "they aren't returning" which people could point out for those who'd like to see CLOWN who's hope for return is mentioned on a near-monthly basis.

[Kirby]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Champions Update

It'd be nice to see some team movement beyond Kinetik joining. The Comics don't keep the same lineups for years and the various writeups Darren did in digital Hero showed that the membership of the Sentinels and Fabulous Five was far from static.

I agree here. The idea that teams must remain static to not interrupt the status quo of the CU is not part of the superhero genre. I'd also like to see them go through some changes. Defender and Witchcraft have a future history so they can't change too much but that doesn't mean the rest of the characters can't go through a "radiation accident" or have something else unforeseen happen to them.

I'd like to see Sapphire leave the team because she's dating Scarlet Archer III.

 

And if you don't know who he is, ask Hermit.

[MitchellS]

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

 

Yes' date=' we've heard that mentioned over and over on why they can't reuse certain characters; however, it's irrelevant to characters they [i']do[/i] have the rights to, but don't want to use.

Of course the issue becomes whom do they own the rights to? Icicle stretches back all the way to the beginning yet needed to be removed from the Champions genre book due to ownership issues.

 

A case can probably be made for most of the characters in Enemies 1 & 2 [and most of them are in 5E] but by the time you're getting to Enemies 3 you're seeing all those little Copyright notices in the front of the book. It's clear that Dennis M. and Aaron A. still hold the rights to all their characters as well. I'm sure others like Andrew R. do was well.

 

Overall I'd rather have seen DOJ go in a new direction with entirely new characters [new as in "not copies of 4E characters with new names"] in a new universe and then later published a giant, 300 page, nostaligia Enemies book full of write ups for 4E characters they did own. To my mind some of the biggest confusion to returning players is why everything seems the same, but different.