Darren Watts Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 Hey all! I'm jumping the gun on this one a bit, 'cause Steve's got a bunch of work to do before he can turn to his share of this book, but because I write so much slower I'm getting a head start on my half right now. So, here's what's almost certainly going to be in the book to save some time: 1. An update of the Champs Universe timeline taking us up through 2006. 2. Updated versions of the Champions, at the "veteran hero" power level. (Consider Kinetik's new writeup in Ultimate Speedster a "sneak peek.") 3. Updated versions of a small number of other existing characters, as we decide they're useful and interesting. 4. Writeups and histories for both of the CU's more veteran hero teams, the Sentinels and Justice Squadron. 5. A new hero team, a new organization, and a handful of new villains. 6. At least one and probably 2-3 extended mini-campaigns and scenarios, featuring several of the above. So brainstorm away about what else you think would be neato to see! dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daeudi_454 Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? Aging! Go 'Earth-2' on the characters.... Yes- they are veterans now- so make them older. If they were 20 back when created in 1989... make them 38yo for a 2007 book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirViss Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I would like to see a write-up of Hydro, who is mentionned in Millennium City, as a hero that shows up in MC, but patrols the Great Lakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? Obviously, for folks just starting new campaigns set in the CU, the timeline extension to 2006 will be useful and no problem. But for folks with existing CU campaigns, their campaign will of course have unfolded differently between 2002 and 2006 than the new timeline will indicate. Maybe it would be useful to offer some thoughts/advice on how to integrate the new timeline info into existing campaigns, how to decide which changes to pull in and which to leave out, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsar2250 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? maybe leave out the mini-campaigns & scenarios. You could publish this material in your Hero Plus Adventures, and use the pages you save for more characters and organization Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daeudi_454 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? maybe leave out the mini-campaigns & scenarios. You could publish this material in your Hero Plus Adventures' date=' and use the pages you save for more characters and organization[/quote'] SECONDED! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirViss Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? Updated goings on of VIPER, DEMON, the IHA, Dr. Destroyer, and the like. Also, any changes that have happened in Millennium City in the last four years (2003-6). My campaign is advancing very slowly, so the characters are still in early 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRavenIs Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? SECONDED! THIRDED!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? This may seem a bit harsh, and if it's taken as so, I apologize ahead of time. But, what I want to see from the CUII/CUU is a sense of the genre and history. Before the steaks and pitchforks come out, allow me to expand the suggestions a bit ... What I mean by genre is a bit more four-color fun. Personally, I've found the 5th ed Champions U a bit flat. I'd like to see more dynamic characters and backstory. Examples of what I speak of can be seen in the Algernon Files and M&M's Freedom City. Within both settings, it honestly feels like a comic book universe ... there's high-flying action and world-thumping bad guys Don't get me wrong, Champions has some of that, but it just doesn't seem to mesh well IMHO ... I guess it's a little too Image and not enough Marvel/DC, which is what I look for in a campaign. Now history, on the other hand, is something I've spoken about in the past. Now I know there are some on the board that prefer new material/characters ... personally, I'd like to see some of the older characters brought back from limbo and used. Examples include, but not limited to: Seeker, Obsidian, Quantum, Shamrock, Crusader, Deathstroke, Rainbow Archer and many, many more ... even mentioning some of them in the timeline would give those of us looking for updated versions some hope Like hearing about what happened to the 4th ed Champions, or finding out that the Masq from Alien Enemies are still around ...This is one of the things that always emulated a comic feel more ... I loved the 4th ed CU and liked many of the characters that came from previous editions ... Please keep in mind that I don't say this because I dislike the CU ... quite the opposite ... I just want to see it better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I hesitate to bring this up, because it could deflect the conversation down some very unproductive lines, but in my ideal world, there'd be no Champions Universe II. Instead, there'd be a revised Champions Universe combining and expanding the original Champions Universe, Millennium City, a few elements of Worldwide and CKC, and adding what you're proposing in Champions Universe II into a major superhero setting. Champions Universe was good, and I've used it for some good campaigns, however I'm an anal retentive completist and I think such a book could hit one out of the proverbial ballpark. Trying to fit an epic world into a relatively small page count is like trying to film the Justice League or the Avengers on a 5 million dollar budget. It can be done, but the compromises you'll make to fit the limitations are painful and not helpful to the project. So the first order of business... think epic and go nuts. Go Kirby nuts. Go John Buscema Silver Surfer nuts. Go Walt Simonson Thor nuts. Go Steve Long Hudson City nuts. :-) Beyond this... don't listen to the idiots who don't want metaplots (with my luck, these "idiots" probably includes Steve :-). Because when you get to see what these villains are doing and plotting, they feel much more dynamic and real, and you get a lot more places to put plot hooks. Write enough plot hooks that you get sick of writing them - then excise half of the plot hooks, the ones that are lame and predictable, grit your teeth and then write another batch. Repeat the process until we're going "wow" at the unexpected coolness on page after page. Always design with an eye with the PCs in mind. I like to have good tough NPCs too; the second idiocy that needs to be ignored are those people who essentially say that you give the PCs a blankie and milk and cookies and a teddy bear and no superior NPC heroes in their space, they can't be happy. However, do find to get PCs involved with NPC hero groups that won't make them feel like third rate incompetents next to shiny GM pets. And create cool organizations that the PCs can belong to, from millennia old arcane conspiracies, to the superhero equivalent of the Rotary where second generation supers get dragged by their dads so they can listen to boring old men share their war stories. Anyway Darren, good luck with the book. I'll probably bend your ear on it at Gen Con. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? Hey all! I'm jumping the gun on this one a bit, 'cause Steve's got a bunch of work to do before he can turn to his share of this book, but because I write so much slower I'm getting a head start on my half right now. So, here's what's almost certainly going to be in the book to save some time: 1. An update of the Champs Universe timeline taking us up through 2006. 2. Updated versions of the Champions, at the "veteran hero" power level. (Consider Kinetik's new writeup in Ultimate Speedster a "sneak peek.") 3. Updated versions of a small number of other existing characters, as we decide they're useful and interesting. What about publishing some short snappers in this regard - not full character sheets, but just changes made to the character in the intervening time period? 4. Writeups and histories for both of the CU's more veteran hero teams, the Sentinels and Justice Squadron. 5. A new hero team, a new organization, and a handful of new villains. New up & comers make sense - it's been several years, the veterans have gained experience (some may also have died, however) - there must be some new villains on the block! 6. At least one and probably 2-3 extended mini-campaigns and scenarios' date=' featuring several of the above.[/quote'] I'd like that myself, but it seems public opinion says no. The Hero Plus idea seems a good aproach for these, however, assuming the possibility of splitting this into a CU Update and a separate adventure book is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlHazred Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I'd like to see the "Swimsuit Edition" with Witchcraft, Sapphire, Black Diamond, that cool chick on page 27 of Champions Battlegrounds... Wait, that'll never fly... Okay, how about a few more interesting and unusual Champions Universe heroes (Hydro sounds interesting), updating the characters to veteran levels (what about veteran levels of the guys in 5ER - Minotaur and Eagle-Eye?), and some plot seeds that build on other plot seeds and scenarios that were previously published (what happens to the production of To Save The World after the events of Fatal Attractions in Champions Battlegrounds?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I'd like to see the "Swimsuit Edition" with Witchcraft' date=' Sapphire, Black Diamond, that cool chick on page 27 of [b']Champions Battlegrounds[/b]... I second this, but I can be tacky More seriously One thing I would love to see is a bit more detail on the aliens of the CU in outer space in the year 2006. Terran Empire is an enjoyable setting, but it's also centuries ahead. What's happening now? Are the Thorgons still exterminating or enslaving their former Ergon creators? How about the Hzeel, if I recall correctly they attempt an invasion sometime soon, providing it as an option for GMs to use would be cool. Perhaps you could introduce a superpowered race that by the time of the Terran Empire will be no more (unless the GMs wish to alter that) but still might provide plot potential. What of the Mandaarians and their odd relationship with Earth? And so forth... Either that, or see if such a thing could support a book of its own in the vein of Hidden Lands. I have Worlds of Empire, and its cool, but again, that's in the time when superheroes are no more. Of course, not everyone likes aliens like I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I say leave the scenarios and adventures in! Everything else looks cool. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I just want the writeups for the other supergroups, like the Sentinels and Justice Squadron. They'd be very helpful for those "crossover" episodes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I don't own the current Champions Universe, so take all this with a grain of salt, but here's some thoughts as I read your list. 1. An update of the Champs Universe timeline taking us up through 2006. And maybe a bit beyond 2006? Also, I always loved the super hero comics when they'd go into space, and all the aliens are basically super powered because of their tech. If you could go beyond even 2200 or so and toss some ideas out for a space and superhero campaign, that'd be nifty. 2. Updated versions of the Champions, at the "veteran hero" power level. (Consider Kinetik's new writeup in Ultimate Speedster a "sneak peek.") 3. Updated versions of a small number of other existing characters, as we decide they're useful and interesting. And maybe some old favorites return for us old guys? I'm thinking of The Circle and Meta here, but I'm sure there's others. Even a brief description of what's been happening with these groups would be great. Ok, I guess I only had a couple of thoughts anyway. But Benny's idea to upgrade the ambitions of the book itself sound very interesting also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? Darren, most of what you've presented here sounds really good. We've already discussed a certain gent with a "V" on his chest, so I won't belabor that. However, one established character that I'd really like to see an update on is Menton. Various Champions books have reiterated how he terrifies governments and organizations both heroic and villainous, and how much influence he may already wield behind the scenes; but other than his failed attempt to take over Spain, nothing specific has been brought up. How about a little meat on what Alejandro Medina has really been up to the last few years? Now if I may, I'd like to riff a bit on a couple of other earlier posts: maybe leave out the mini-campaigns & scenarios. You could publish this material in your Hero Plus Adventures' date=' and use the pages you save for more characters and organization[/quote'] Assuming you have material that you could readily substitute for those, I'd favor this approach as well. I'd really like the CU update to concentrate on developing characters and groups, perhaps with plot seeds or at most scenario outlines, but keep the actual adventures and campaigns for another publication. HPAs sound just right for that. (More about what to substitute for them below...) One thing I would love to see is a bit more detail on the aliens of the CU in outer space in the year 2006. Terran Empire is an enjoyable setting, but it's also centuries ahead. What's happening now? Are the Thorgons still exterminating or enslaving their former Ergon creators? How about the Hzeel, if I recall correctly they attempt an invasion sometime soon, providing it as an option for GMs to use would be cool. Perhaps you could introduce a superpowered race that by the time of the Terran Empire will be no more (unless the GMs wish to alter that) but still might provide plot potential. What of the Mandaarians and their odd relationship with Earth? And so forth... Either that, or see if such a thing could support a book of its own in the vein of Hidden Lands. I have Worlds of Empire, and its cool, but again, that's in the time when superheroes are no more. This sounds very interesting to me. Earth's superheroes interacting with alien threats is a classic comic-book trope, and there's plenty of potential in the present-day CU. I for one have been wondering when the Phazor of Malva would attempt to reclaim his AWOL gladiators. From the other side of the coin, I believe the CU update should go into more detail about the Star*Guard. I rather expect the current Earthly Guard, Andre Almeda, to be in this book (and if not, GET HIM IN THERE!) , but it would add so much to include elements like those from the S*G articles in Digital HERO - the Marshalls, the Overseer, the Jovian base and starship, and of course the despicable Mordace. (If you do write up Andre Almeda, PLEASE put him in the same league powerwise as Star*Shield from GC, rather than the DH version of Brin Rae Tarn. If any superheroes belong among the heavy hitters, it would have to be the CU's analog to the Green Lantern Corps.) I also like the idea of "superpowered" aliens, another genre classic. I realize that y'all have avoided that so that you can maintain a more "believable" sci-fi universe in the future, but you already have several formidable psionic races extant: the Mandaarians, the Varanyi, the Thane. What might they be like during periods of high magic? There's also the possibility of "Empyreans" created from alien races that has yet to be explored. And Mike Surbrook's Nehkojin are already designed to be dropped into the existing setting. All of the above dovetails with another concern of mine for the CU: we've had tons of development of the "mystic" side of this world, but even with Galactic Champions the "cosmic" side remains relatively underdeveloped IMHO. For example, another of the Examiner's brother Galaxars, perhaps one with a more actively destructive agenda, could pose a grave threat to the entire Earth. Or perhaps a group of superheroes from one of the alien civilizations, counterparts to the future Galactic Champions, could end up butting heads with PCs over one of those inevitable comic-booky misunderstandings. Anyway, that's my $.0225 cents Canadian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I hesitate to bring this up, because it could deflect the conversation down some very unproductive lines, but in my ideal world, there'd be no Champions Universe II. Instead, there'd be a revised Champions Universe combining and expanding the original Champions Universe, Millennium City, a few elements of Worldwide and CKC, and adding what you're proposing in Champions Universe II into a major superhero setting. Champions Universe was good, and I've used it for some good campaigns, however I'm an anal retentive completist and I think such a book could hit one out of the proverbial ballpark. Trying to fit an epic world into a relatively small page count is like trying to film the Justice League or the Avengers on a 5 million dollar budget. It can be done, but the compromises you'll make to fit the limitations are painful and not helpful to the project. This is a truly ambitious and exciting vision which leaves me all tingly! However, IMO this is not the time for such a project, with the other books you mention still available and relatively fresh and pertinent. I get the impression that you recognize the impracticality of it at this point as well, Scott. Two or three years further down the road, though, heck yeah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I'd like to see more about the Pulp Supers and WWII Supers, and what a few of them are doing today. I'd love to see a few Wildcards / Watchmen style faux peer reviewed journal articles arguing about time travel, the history of Superheroes, the vigilante in society, etc. Maybe a couple of excerpts from Supers! of an interview with Invictus on metahuman politics, or a segment from the "Good Morning USA" show where they discuss Lady Blue's nude layout in Playmate. How about a morning traffic report, Sky High style, discussing the best way to get to work in order to avoid Grond's freeway rampage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? Obviously' date=' for folks just starting new campaigns set in the CU, the timeline extension to 2006 will be useful and no problem. But for folks with existing CU campaigns, their campaign will of course have unfolded differently between 2002 and 2006 than the new timeline will indicate. Maybe it would be useful to offer some thoughts/advice on how to integrate the new timeline info into existing campaigns, how to decide which changes to pull in and which to leave out, etc.[/quote'] This sounds very sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I just recently got DEMON and The Turakian Age, and one of the things I especially like about both books is that they take events a ways into the future from the "current" time (as does Terran Empire). I'd like to see a "future timeline" of events from 2006 to 2020, including the downfall of DEMON in 2012, the final battle with Doctor Destroyer, and so forth. I think some additional coverage of the various superhero sub-subcultures would be handy, too -- there's a whole book devoted to The Mystic World, but the CU also has a Martial Arts World, Mutant World, Super-Tech World, and other superheroic subcommunities to explore. Give Champions PCs plenty of allies to consult with. I don't have my copy of CU handy right now, but let's have some Federal and international government contacts, suppliers, expert consultants, and so forth to help superheroes along their paths. For sample characters, make copious use of not only the Ultimate books, but also the full USPD (both volumes). I personally would love to see a teleporter with the "Trading Spaces" power, but that's just me. Finally, an appendix on how the information contained in the book can be used to supplement games taking place in other time periods (especially Terran Empire and Champions 3000), both in direct adaptation and as historical record, would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I too like the scenarios and adventures and hope that they are left in. While I know that the book focuses mainly on MC but I'd like to see a larger world view. Tell us a little more about the rest of the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted July 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? OK, lessee what we got so far: 1) Not so much with scenarios, more characters and organizations. I think you'll be happy with what we've got planned- I still expect there to be one full-on scenario, if only because it helps introduce (or, re-introduce... dah dah dahhh!) a couple of important characters itself. But yeah, mostly we're talking outlines and plot seeds. 2) The scope of the book itself- while I appreciate the way Scott and others think, the publishing reality is this is a 160-page book that needs to be done by around Thanksgiving. It's *not* going to be a complete re-imagining of the Champs Universe. (Hey, you gotta save us some projects for 2009 and on.) There will be a chapter on M-City over the last few years, but there's plenty of focus on other places, especially New York since that will probably never get a book of its own. 3) Other bits: The Super-Tech World definitely gets fleshed out a bit, with one new org and an expansion of an older one. Pulp and WWII supers will be referenced a bit (especially in the Justice Squadron section, since their roots are as a WWII-era team), but the bulk of that will have to wait for Golden Age Champs next year. Multiple requests for Hydro, huh? That's a new one on me, but hey, why not? 4) LL, you'll be happy to hear I'm covering a lot of stuff you're mentioning. Let's just say the scenario involves an extended trip off-world for the PC team, where they will meet a bunch of interesting folks. Gojira, you'll be less happy, because the Circle and META are definitely not showing up. OTOH, Galactic Champs has some of what you're looking for, I think. Derek, good idea on the GM advice- I may be back for more help on that particular chapter. Thanks guys- keep firing! dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? I think some additional coverage of the various superhero sub-subcultures would be handy' date=' too -- there's a whole book devoted to The Mystic World, but the CU also has a Martial Arts World, Mutant World, Super-Tech World, and other superheroic subcommunities to explore.[/quote'] This does seem to be a fruitful area for further development, and would add a great deal of distinctive "local color" to the Champions Universe. However, I believe that the Martial Arts World in the CU is sufficiently rich and diverse to sustain its own sourcebook: international and alien martial artists, legendary and fictional martial arts styles and MA "superpowers," Yengtao Temple, Shamballah and Agharti, the Tournament of the Dragon, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See? Gojira' date=' you'll be less happy, because the Circle and META are definitely not showing up[/quote'] Why not? I'll give you write ups, villains, adventure seeds, the whole deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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