Cool Guns for your Games

[MisterVimes]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Needs +1 STUN' date=' as the .45 round is apparently a hefty one. (I recall reading it was a 'man-stopper' round.)[/quote']

 

Good call. It certainly has more stopping power than the 7.63 or the 9x19. Is +1 Stun the standard for 45s?

[Susano]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Good call. It certainly has more stopping power than the 7.63 or the 9x19. Is +1 Stun the standard for 45s?

 

Yes.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Yes.

 

Done.

[wcw43921]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Haven't seen this one on here (or anywhere else on the boards). Here is my 5th Edition build for the Shanxi Type-17. She'd be sweet in a Pulp Hero game or a Dark Champions game.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42237[/ATTACH]

 

My first pass at the build

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]Cost

[/TD]

[TD]Power

[/TD]

[TD=align: right]END

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]12

[/TD]

[TD]Shanxi Type 17 (.45 ACP): Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6-1 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), 2 clips of 10 Charges (Two 5-round stripper clips; -0)

[/TD]

[TD][10]

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

For equipment: Str Min: 8, Weight: 1.2kg

 

Add in Autofire and you'd have Jon Sable's gun--if I remember my 80s comics correctly.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Add in Autofire and you'd have Jon Sable's gun--if I remember my 80s comics correctly.

 

Jon Sable, Freelance was, indeed, where I fell in love with this weapon. As I recall, he replaced the stripper clips with the Schnellfeuer magazine box. I don't remember it being full auto, but the "super" part of that series was always the firearms, so it is likely. Wasn't his pepperbox revolver modified to fire those big Nitro-Express rounds from his Holland and Holland?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

The Arsenal Double Barrel 1911:

 

And, if two isn't enough, try three!

[Markdoc]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Good call. It certainly has more stopping power than the 7.63 or the 9x19. Is +1 Stun the standard for 45s?

 

Actually, according to Capt. Fairbairn - who saw lots of people shot with both this, the Colt 1911 .45, and the Mauser 7.63 (and shot a few of them himself) in real life, the Mauser had more stopping power and was by far the most feared handgun in Shanghai. As he put it (I'm quoting from memory, so the wording may not be exact) "Nothing is so feared, rightly or wrongly, as the Mauser military automatic. The mention of the word is sufficient, if there is trouble afoot, to send men in instant search of bullet-proof equipment" - and in the same bit of text, he made it plain that he was talking of the 7.63. He put what he called the "terrible effect" of the weapon down to the tendency for the bullets to shatter and "pulp" - again his word - the target area. He has a whole chapter on stopping power in his book, based on years of experience in what was regarded as the world's most dangerous city, plus the preceding war.

 

There's a discussion of the double .45 in another thread, where I just made the same point, so it was on the top of my brain.

 

cheers, Mark

[gewing]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Haven't seen this one on here (or anywhere else on the boards). Here is my 5th Edition build for the Shanxi Type-17. She'd be sweet in a Pulp Hero game or a Dark Champions game.

 

From Wikipedia: During the Warlord era of Chinese History in the early 20th century, the province of Shansi was ruled by the warlord Yen Hsi-shan, who had established a modern arms factory in his capital city of Taiyuan. Yen was equipping his troops with a locally produced copy of the Thompson sub machine gun, chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge, but was experiencing supply difficulties as his troops' sidearms were 7.63mm calibre C96 handguns.[20]

 

His solution was to produce a .45 ACP caliber version of the C96, thus standardizing ammunition and making supply easier.[20] Designated Type 17, production on the .45 caliber handgun began in 1929 at the Taiyuan Arsenal. They are inscribed (in Chinese) "Type 17" on the left hand side of the gun, and "Republic Year Eighteen, Made in Shansi" on the right hand side.[20] They were issued (along with Thompson SMGs) to railway guards in the province as defense against bandits and other warlords.

 

Besides being chambered for a larger cartridge, the Shansi .45 pistols are noticeably bigger than their 7.63mm counterparts, with the 10-round magazine extending below the trigger guard. It was loaded using two 5-round stripper clips rather than the single 10-round stripper clips of the standard 7.63mm Mauser.

 

Most of the Shanxi .45 pistols were melted down after the Communist victory in the Chinese Civil War, largely due to their odd caliber for Communist Regulations, but a few examples were exported overseas for sale on the commercial market.[20] Approximately 8,500 Shanxi .45 caliber Broomhandle pistols are believed to have been produced by the Taiyuan Arsenal, but there is some debate as to how many of the Shanxi .45 calibre Broomhandle pistols currently on the commercial market were actually produced for Yen's troops, and how many are more recent productions for the US collectors' market.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42237[/ATTACH]

 

My first pass at the build

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]Cost [/TD]

[TD]Power[/TD]

[TD=align: right]END[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]12[/TD]

[TD]Shanxi Type 17 (.45 ACP): Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6-1 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), 2 clips of 10 Charges (Two 5-round stripper clips; -0)[/TD]

[TD][10][/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

For equipment: Str Min: 8, Weight: 1.2kg

 

I still don't think the .45 acp should be 2d6-1, 1d6+1 with +1 stun always seemed about right. I would say a .45 super would probably be at least 1.5 d6, and 460 rowland should be 2d6-1 or 2d6.

 

I have heard that the Broomhandle was never the easiest gun to shoot, I wonder how it would be with the .45 instead of 7.62x25.

[gewing]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Jon Sable' date=' Freelance was, indeed, where I fell in love with this weapon. As I recall, he replaced the stripper clips with the Schnellfeuer magazine box. I don't remember it being full auto, but the "super" part of that series was always the firearms, so it is likely. Wasn't his pepperbox revolver modified to fire those big Nitro-Express rounds from his Holland and Holland?[/quote']

 

I never read that, I don't think. I would chamber it in 9mm Mauser Export, it should be able to use the same magazines and stripper clips from the 7.62x25, but have performance about like a .357 magnum. It is one of the calibers that I wish had caught on in the US...

[MisterVimes]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

I still don't think the .45 acp should be 2d6-1' date=' 1d6+1 with +1 stun always seemed about right. I would say a .45 super would probably be at least 1.5 d6, and 460 rowland should be 2d6-1 or 2d6. [/quote']

 

My benchmark for the damage was the Equipment guide. 45 ACP in all the cases I checked was 2d6-1

[MisterVimes]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

I never read that' date=' I don't think. I would chamber it in 9mm Mauser Export, it should be able to use the same magazines and stripper clips from the 7.62x25, but have performance about like a .357 magnum. It is one of the calibers that I wish had caught on in the US...[/quote']

 

According to Television Tropes (prevented me for digging through my comics) "In Jon Sable Freelance, Jon carried a large bore, multipurpose stainless steel revolver, that had a resemblance to an antique pepperbox revolver. The weapon could fire underwater, fire rifle shot, arrow/bolt type projectiles and a multitude of other loads, such as tear gas, explosive, and tranquilizer. This was a Real Life weapon designed for Navy SEALs that never went beyond prototype. "

[RexMundi]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

2d6-1 for .45 ACP is about right scale wise. It's not really about the numbers, but what those numbers do to the target. .45 ACP makes things Dead. Pretty much one of the best Man Stopper Rounds out there and one of the best there ever will be. One .45 ACP round to center of mass = a casualty, hence you need enough Average Body to make sure that happens to your average target. Comparative Scale. Especially in 6e where the Stun X starts at a half die. Everything else then is simple a matter of looking at things like Range and energy at Various Ranges. You don't want to be to nitpicky with the damage ranges either because you'll just run into to many issues.

 

I suppose I look at it differently as one of those folks with closet full of guns and ammo kits and what not, but let's look at a few things. Take .22 magnum for example (Just picked up a nice North American Arms mini master with a few bells and whistles (adjustable sights, custom grips, variable cylinders to go from .22 mag to .22 lr ). A .22 mag, is (@ 30 grains), a smidge over 2000 ft/second, and delivers 322 ft/lbs of force (437 j). It's Lethal, for anything from a jackrabbit up to a Coyote at 150 yards, Go with a Hollow Point and you'll rip a good size Coyote in half at 50 yards (and waste a pelt). That there alone spells more then the damage listed for a .22 caliber weapon (regardless of type) I say this because you could take a .45 ACP, and in a few configurations of that ammo, you're only looking at an additional 100 ft/lbs give or take, up to roughly twice that of the .22 magnum and that's before getting into what us Wildcatters do with that ammo.... So if the .22 is only worth a 1d6, then 2d6-1 is about right for most .45 ACP, and some of the other .45 configurations like the Federal Hydra-Shok and what not would pile on Stun X and maybe another +1 or so in RKA...

 

Hence why I always go for the scale first, and what it does, before shifting numbers.....

 

~Rex

[gewing]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

According to Television Tropes (prevented me for digging through my comics) "In Jon Sable Freelance' date=' Jon carried a large bore, multipurpose stainless steel revolver, that had a resemblance to an antique pepperbox revolver. The weapon could fire underwater, fire rifle shot, arrow/bolt type projectiles and a multitude of other loads, such as tear gas, explosive, and tranquilizer. This was a Real Life weapon designed for Navy SEALs that never went beyond prototype. "[/quote']

 

 

Actually, I meant I would chamber the broomhandle in it. If it could handle the pressures. The Seal gun (that saw use) iirc was built by HK, and of all things was Electrically Ignited. Each cylinder had to go back to HK after use to be re-loaded. I never saw anything about it firing anything other than the drag stabilized Flechette for underwater use, though.

 

IIRC the Soviets had a similar weapon. They have also made assault rifles for underwater use...

[MisterVimes]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Actually, I meant I would chamber the broomhandle in it. If it could handle the pressures. The Seal gun (that saw use) iirc was built by HK, and of all things was Electrically Ignited. Each cylinder had to go back to HK after use to be re-loaded. I never saw anything about it firing anything other than the drag stabilized Flechette for underwater use, though.

 

IIRC the Soviets had a similar weapon. They have also made assault rifles for underwater use...

 

I was wondering if that was a reference to the Heckler & Koch P11, but the P11 looked more like a quad barrel derringer than the toy that Sable carried. I guess we can chalk that up to artistic license.

[Susano]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

IIRC the Soviets had a similar weapon. They have also made assault rifles for underwater use...

 

Said rifle shows up in the anime/manga Black Lagoon.

[Old Man]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

[gewing]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

2d6-1 for .45 ACP is about right scale wise. It's not really about the numbers, but what those numbers do to the target. .45 ACP makes things Dead. Pretty much one of the best Man Stopper Rounds out there and one of the best there ever will be. One .45 ACP round to center of mass = a casualty, hence you need enough Average Body to make sure that happens to your average target. Comparative Scale. Especially in 6e where the Stun X starts at a half die. Everything else then is simple a matter of looking at things like Range and energy at Various Ranges. You don't want to be to nitpicky with the damage ranges either because you'll just run into to many issues.

 

I suppose I look at it differently as one of those folks with closet full of guns and ammo kits and what not, but let's look at a few things. Take .22 magnum for example (Just picked up a nice North American Arms mini master with a few bells and whistles (adjustable sights, custom grips, variable cylinders to go from .22 mag to .22 lr ). A .22 mag, is (@ 30 grains), a smidge over 2000 ft/second, and delivers 322 ft/lbs of force (437 j). It's Lethal, for anything from a jackrabbit up to a Coyote at 150 yards, Go with a Hollow Point and you'll rip a good size Coyote in half at 50 yards (and waste a pelt). That there alone spells more then the damage listed for a .22 caliber weapon (regardless of type) I say this because you could take a .45 ACP, and in a few configurations of that ammo, you're only looking at an additional 100 ft/lbs give or take, up to roughly twice that of the .22 magnum and that's before getting into what us Wildcatters do with that ammo.... So if the .22 is only worth a 1d6, then 2d6-1 is about right for most .45 ACP, and some of the other .45 configurations like the Federal Hydra-Shok and what not would pile on Stun X and maybe another +1 or so in RKA...

 

Hence why I always go for the scale first, and what it does, before shifting numbers.....

 

~Rex

 

I think that .22mag performance you are quoting is from a rifle. From a pistol, particularly a short barreled one, it behaves more like a .22 lr out of a rifle.

 

I would consider the .357 at least the equal of the .45, the .45 lc also, and imo the best out there (that fits normal guns, etc) is probably the 10mm.

 

but...

[matrix3]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

[RexMundi]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

I think that .22mag performance you are quoting is from a rifle. From a pistol, particularly a short barreled one, it behaves more like a .22 lr out of a rifle.

 

I would consider the .357 at least the equal of the .45, the .45 lc also, and imo the best out there (that fits normal guns, etc) is probably the 10mm.

 

but...

 

I'm matching shot per shot on my Mini Master with .22 Magnum, time and damage at pistol ranges as my Lever Action Henry. Where I adjust for serious differences in HERO between Pistols and Rifles, even if the same Ammo is used, is with Accuracy At Range. The Round, is the same, but the accuracy at range is not (and yes you can lose some energy, much like you lose energy with semi automatic shotguns vs pump action or long barrel vs tactical cuts) but it's not really that much in game terms). Last time I went through this it was with .45 Long Colt (with my Marlin model 1894) and the same round out of my Taurus Judge. Same Round Same Grain. Equal Performance at Pistol Range, Considerable ACCURACY issues at Rifle ranges obviously. While I do Adjust for differences in total between Rifle and Pistol's (Weapon bonuses, Penalties etc), I don't for the Ammo. The Ammo is the same base but the Weapon may adjust up or down in the areas it's meant to be effective at.....

 

Seeing a lot of this with this current fad of wrapping pistols down around Rifle Ammunition as well. Or even more fun systems like the Encore system from Thompson/Center where you can fire everything from .22 Hornet up to .416 Rigby (it's a modular system, click and swap, Pistol to Rifle, even muzzle loading up to .50 caliber, 20 and 12 gauge in addition to the previous ammo range) http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encore.php (BTW I really really want a complete Encore set )

 

I'm a .22 wildcatter before most else really my first Rifle was a Ruger 10/22 and my first pistol was likewise in the same range and company. Wildcatting comes naturally if you stick with the caliber long enough (for the unknowing, Wildcatting is basically customizing your ammo, not recommended for the casual shooter, and very common amongst the .22 crowd of folks). With a basic .22 magnum Hollow Point round though (from my good ol Ruger Single Six (got a thing for single action revolvers), I've hit a 60 pound coyote in northern Maine square in the chest at 20 yards and blew off most of his front, total pelt wreckage but we did rescue the neighbors yorkie albeit with a few stitches and a serious fear of going out in the backyard after that heh...

 

~Rex... simply put though, if you base Ammo Damage on what the Round NEEDS to be able to do at it's useable range, .45 ACP comes in around 2d6-1 to 2d6+1 depending on load.

[Tom]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

I want to see a version based on the two-barreled WWII antiaircraft guns that fired from alternating barrels. Alas, I can't remember what they're called, but the nickname was "pom-pom guns" if I'm correct.

 

ETA: In U.S. Navy, the guns I'm yalking abour were called "Chicago pianos", a play on the slang term for the Thompson SMG; "Chicago violins".

You might be thinking of the 40mm bofors gun. It was available in twin and quad mounts.

http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/40mm/index.html

[megaplayboy]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Incidentally, the largest caliber cannon that could qualify as "autofire" is probably the Russian twin 130mm naval gun. It has an autoloader and a ROF that likely equates to AF2. Below that, probably the Skysweeper, which IIRC was a 75mm weapon. Below that, the Russian S-60 57mm anti-aircraft gun.

 

Of course, multi-launch rocket systems can be quite large in "caliber" and be effectively autofire...

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Incidentally, the largest caliber cannon that could qualify as "autofire" is probably the Russian twin 130mm naval gun. It has an autoloader and a ROF that likely equates to AF2. Below that, probably the Skysweeper, which IIRC was a 75mm weapon. Below that, the Russian S-60 57mm anti-aircraft gun.

 

Of course, multi-launch rocket systems can be quite large in "caliber" and be effectively autofire...

 

 

Yeah, but I was thinking of those alternating barrels mounted on something with a pistol grip, fed from two different barrels, firing individual shots or autofire from alternating barrels.

 

I don't think anything like that's in the works. I did see a shoulder-fired, hand-cranked .22-long gatling gun a long time ago in a magazine, but I don't recall if it was a working model or not.

[gewing]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Incidentally, the largest caliber cannon that could qualify as "autofire" is probably the Russian twin 130mm naval gun. It has an autoloader and a ROF that likely equates to AF2. Below that, probably the Skysweeper, which IIRC was a 75mm weapon. Below that, the Russian S-60 57mm anti-aircraft gun.

 

Of course, multi-launch rocket systems can be quite large in "caliber" and be effectively autofire...

 

From Anthony William's Excellent site http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/MCG.html

 

"These philosophies led to different approaches in gun design. The British and American requirement did not call for a high rate of fire, so their mountings, the 4.5" Mk.8 and the 5" Mark 45 respectively, achieve only 20-25 rpm but have the benefit of being simple and relatively light at around 25 tons, as well as low on manpower demands. The current Mod 4 mounting for the 5" gun has a longer (L/62 rather than L/54) barrel and a longer recoil stroke to cope with more powerful ammunition, with the rate of fire further reduced to 16-20 rpm.

 

The alternative approach has continued to stress rate of fire. The most recent, export version of the French Creusot-Loire 100mm Compact weighs only 14 tons (19 including the hoist and magazine) and has a rate of fire of up to 90 rpm. The Italian OTO Melara 76mm weighs just 7.5 tons, with a rate of fire in the latest "super-rapid" version of 120 rpm. The Italian gun has become something of an international standard weapon, seeing service in some three dozen navies.

 

Two attempts have been made to enjoy the best of both worlds. Oto Melara offer a 127mm gun, using the same ammunition as the American 5", but firing at a rate of 45 rpm. The penalty for this performance is a weight of 37 tons, although this has been reduced to 22 tons in the latest lightweight version. The Swedish firm of Bofors developed an even more spectacular weapon in the late 1960s, the 120mm single, in a 28.5 ton mounting, which fires at a still remarkable 80 rpm, but this saw very little use."

 

 

 

THere was also the BOfors BANDKANNON self-propelled 155mm Howitzer, it could fire it's clip of 14 rounds of 155mm in 45 seconds.

[RexMundi]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Anyone ever work up stats for the ridiculous assault rifles from the movie Deep Rising?

 

~Rex..... Basically it was a Calico M955a Hollywooded up as a 5 barrel Gatling assault rifle, heh....total prop weapon but should have a few extra dice of presence attack

[Susano]

Re: Cool Guns for your Games

 

Anyone ever work up stats for the ridiculous assault rifles from the movie Deep Rising?

 

~Rex..... Basically it was a Calico M955a Hollywooded up as a 5 barrel Gatling assault rifle, heh....total prop weapon but should have a few extra dice of presence attack

 

Per this page (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/%22Deep_Risings%27_%22_M1-L1_Triple-Pulse_Rifle), they're 1,000 round weapons firing a .223 cartridge. The Hero System Equipment Guide says the M951 is +1 OCV, +1 RMod. A 5.56x45mm N (.223) round does 2d6 RKA and +1 STUN. The weapon has 1,000 rounds, which is good, since the five barrels give it AF 20. I'd actually up the OCV bonus to something like +2 or even as high as +4, since that many rounds fired means you're going to hit something!

 

So, to sum up:

 

M1-L1 Triple-Pulse Rifle (5.56x45mm N)

+2 OCV, +1RMod, 2d6 RKA, +1 STUN, 1,000 Charges, STR Min 14, Note: 2H, AF 20

 

Option -- make the weapon AF 10, but give it either Penetrating or Armor Piercing to better represent how fast it fires and the effect of that many round impacting that fast.