Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

She has a rivalry with Tyrannon. If she commits too many resources to conquer Earth then other dimensions she controls are left under-defended against an invasion by Tyrannon. It's all about logistics.

 

As well if people are using her in a gaming multiverse where there are other Extra Dimensional Orgs' date=' Some of them would definitely cause her to hold back troops in case of counter invasion, cold wars and the like.[/quote']

 

These two just don't seem reasonable in the context to me. Dimensional conquering isn't as easily accessible as going to a convenience store. I think it also depends on how "advanced" her technology is compared to where it should be.

 

The Mongols in Genghis Khan's time ruled the largest empire ever and they constantly won battles despite being outnumbered. That was tactics and weapon tech.

 

I wonder if V'han is equivalent to the Persian King Xerxes. She has a greater technology level and she has many nations to call upon, however this "peace" within her dimensions has caused weapon tech to stagnate. And now she's coming upon the Greeks (Earth) whose weapons are superior (Greek heavy armor versus Immortal wicker?) and the first troops she meets are the Spartans (supers) who are backed up by Athenians (ACRONYM groups) and others. This would make sense.

[Hermit]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

I wonder if V'han is equivalent to the Persian King Xerxes. She has a greater technology level and she has many nations to call upon, however this "peace" within her dimensions has caused weapon tech to stagnate. And now she's coming upon the Greeks (Earth) whose weapons are superior (Greek heavy armor versus Immortal wicker?) and the first troops she meets are the Spartans (supers) who are backed up by Athenians (ACRONYM groups) and others. This would make sense.

 

Great, now I have the urge to make a superhero from Hoboken beat the hell out of a V'han Messanger

"Madness? THIS!IS!JERSEY!"

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Or less than one per solar system, maybe only a dozen or so per galaxy?

 

[...]

 

Another reason is that Humans are extremely contrary. Look at how much trouble the United States is having controlling a country a tenth its size. If the population of Earth concludes that Scorched Earth is their only option, they are capible of exterminating all terresterial flora and fauna. A burned out cinder is not much of a conquest. As V'han is immortal, she can be patient, make an exploritory thrust every decade or so, wait until Earth is more ripe for her benevolent rule.

This is probably the best I've heard so far. I'd rep you, but it says I must delve it out to others.

 

I like the "dozen or so per galaxy." Perhaps another dimensional rift exists in Malvan territory. V'han doesn't invade there because she's worried about "waking the sleeping beast" and have all of Malva commit their supreme technology back to war.

 

Perhaps V'han's patience is not only a strength, but a weakness? Maybe she doesn't committ what she should because she can always do so again later? (After those pesky upstarts are dead.)

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

She delegates things out to various "royalty"

 

It turns out the fop who has the pleasure of trying to conquer this dimension in her name is a bit of an idiot and a tactical void. He just can't see to get it right ....

 

Good thing this is basically an out of the way seemingly unimportant dimension, and he's just a kind of useless "prince" under her anyways. This occupies him and keeps him out of her court. . .

Hmm... almost conceivable, but the text suggests she wants this dimension conquered (and why not, we have chocolate!) in the relative "now." Otherwise, it's a nice possibility.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

V'Han is unique among most world conquerers' date=' she truly wants to better the worlds she wants to conquer and believes that her rule is the best thing for everyone. Perhaps, she could easily have the equivalent of nuclear warheads launched into our dimension by the hundreds, but she intends to come as a savior, not a butcher. This causes her to hold back her full forces in mercy that some fools might mistake for weakness.[/quote']Now this I like! Similar to what McCoy stated, using the Iraq analogy. If the U.S. wanted to conquer Iraq for, we would have done it like we did in 1991. V'han wants to do it the "nice" way and being nice to the populace whose lands you're occupying doesn't kill enough of the enemy.

 

Similar to Xerxes (sorry, I've recently seen two movies as well as Historical shows on this, so it's coming to mind) who would allow Greece to exist much as they were if they kneeled to him and sent tribute, V'han wants Earth to be her friend. Had she just wanted the territory, she could come in killing Mongol Horde style.

 

What's more' date=' D troopers are her backbone because they are the common soldier, the standard. They are sent because the glory of victory should belong to only V'Han, and to the 'common V'hanian' so that the people might see they are strengthened by their unity. Sending superagents first diminishes that civic pride ,and might also steal the glory that should belong to the Empress.[/quote']This goes along with the "tradition" I mentioned before and could easily explain a lot.

 

Indeed' date=' heroes who take the fight to her may find the kid gloves come off. Once in HER domain, imagine the shock of the PCs when they find themselves no longer fighting the 'meek' D troopers, but rather a hundred superpowered beings... and most of them duplicates of themselves from alternate Earths she HAS conquered. What will Defender do when he bumps into General James Harmon, the man who turned on his own nation's government because he knew, KNEW, that only V'Han would have the power to defeat Destroyer and make sure Detroit's fall never happened again, on his, or any other Earth?[/quote']Yes, this was my internal feeling as well, that her dimensions are better protected than what she sends forth to conquer others. It's funny you should mention V'han taking out Destroyer... that's what her initial surgical strike did in my campaign (well, after taking out UNTIL's Gateway - it was an annoying device that could spy on her and attack her ships).

 

Conquer Earth? Probably already done a hundred times over. Conquer the PCs' Earth? She'll get around to it' date=' but she won't abandon her ethics and pride to do it. She has all the time in the universe after all.[/quote']I like the ethics and pride, though it's not really a psych lim (though could be spun to fit the regal bearing). And her overconfidence, well, Luke told the Emperor about overconfidence, yes?

[Hermit]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

It's funny you should mention V'han taking out Destroyer... that's what her initial surgical strike did in my campaign (well, after taking out UNTIL's Gateway - it was an annoying device that could spy on her and attack her ships).

Mmm, I'm going to have to lurk your campaign.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Well' date=' the only "official" details we've been given about V'han's invasions are the ones I cited on the Dimensional Conquerors thread. Everything else would have to be filled in by individual GMs, which can be viewed as either a plus or a minus. I consider it a plus overall, because it leaves plenty of wiggle room to address just these kinds of concerns.[/quote']Yes, I understand. I'm just wanting some player input that would coincide with the CU history.

 

I view the Galactic Champions era invasion to be the example of V'han having taken all the time an immortal has to plan her strategy' date=' and throwing the resources appropriate to taking on half a galaxy into the fray. In that instance it took the mother of all CU MacGuffins to get her to back off.[/quote']That books packed, so I'll have to look at it later. Perhaps her strategy is to send in two "probing" assault forces (though the text states she believed she'd win) or "minimal" forces and discovered she was wrong.

 

I can't remember the chronological order of the C3K book, but was her "all out" attack after the Earther entered her dimension? Or was that attack cut short due to Tyrannon? If it were the former, then I could see her attacks are limited requiring a vote from her councils. As opposed to the 1998 and 2002 which she was using "discretionary troops" to invade. In the C3K era, she was authorized for war and sent in a galaxy-size force.

 

That could work.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Yeah' date=' Zerstoiten would be a real problem. [/quote']He's been captured by her troops. I'd post more, but I have at least two players who've already responded on this thread.

Actually' date=' I think Twilight was implying the intervention of a certain Time Lord. [/quote']Dr. Who? Heh, my bad.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

But we can't give those answers to you. We know no more about this stuff than you do' date=' and anything we come up with would be no more valid than your own suggestions.[/quote']Correct, but I'm hoping that the HERO hive could come up with something that we could roughly agree upon (or really, agree with my way of thinking ) as semi-canon. Sort of the same thought process of the "Australia in the current CU" thread. Something that could possibly go Digital Hero (even though I don't buy that) or that HERO Games could say "we like some of those ideas, we'll use them" and they show up in a future publication.

 

Looking back over the thread' date=' it seems that most of us are not quite on the same wavelength as you. We're giving you "soft" rationales as to motives, style, personnel, tactical possibilities; while you seem to be more interested in "hard" numbers for logistics, materiel, deployment. No one could answer you definitively for lack of more published V'han sources, except maybe Steve Long or Darren Watts.[/quote']Yeah, y'all sucketh. J/K

 

I can only say that all the tactical scenarios you postulate appear reasonable' date=' and since you seem to have a good grasp of those issues, and virtually nothing published to contradict you, you should go with whatever works best for you. [/quote']A man after my own yeses.

 

I guess that's probably a better wording than what I was conveying. I'm trying to come up with some "hard numbers" to reasonably explain why V'han hasn't been victorious yet that doesn't contradict published material. (And with that info, I'll use it as "canon" in my own campaign.)

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Mmm' date=' I'm going to have to lurk your campaign. [/quote']Feel free. As a note, the "Elsewhere" thread tends to have its post happen after it comes up in game play (but not always, as was the case for Gigaton) even though the events might happen before they do for the PCs.

 

And I can get cranky when people who are supposed to post don't do so for days holding up the prolific posters and myself. So sometimes I may seem to be "short" with posts/PCs. (I'm working on it, really.)

 

Oh, one last thing, the path that the PCs are on is NOT the path I thought they'd take, but I let them choose and they went straight for the jugular, so-to-speak.

[Kirby]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

OK, so thoughts I have so far:

• There are no more than a dozen dimensional rift spots in each galaxy and they aren't always "open."
  
• Istvatha V'han has her native pride and glory that tends to get in the way of the surest, quickest victory.
  
• Her assault forces aren't nearly as numerous and powerful as her defensive forces.
  
• She may possibly need (or tradition suggests comply with) her council's vote to go to "all out" war.
  

 

That's a start.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Here lies the problem(s) though: She wouldn't find DEMON, DEMON would find her troops. And unless she's out to primarily eliminate DEMON, those thousand D-Soldiers won't be waiting around. VIPER she'd have an easier time finding and since VIPER strangely has conventional-like military vehicles, she'd have a real battle on her hand. With an alien invasion occuring, PRIMUS and UNTIL wouldn't have to worry about red tape, and UNTIL can field about 7,000 troops if they gather quickly while PRIMUS just has the US to concern themselves with. As for MARS, this is just the super version of SWAT in one city!

 

But here's the bigger problem: The overall issue isn't V'han vs. DEMON, VIPER, UNTIL, PRIMUS, or MARS, it would be that she'd have to be fighting ALL of them at the same time and they ALL are better equipped than her standard troops are (DEMON and VIPER and UNTIL, and probably PRIMUS have more powerful troops as well). After you consider that, there's the militaries of each nation to contend with (and I'd think China would do a quick kill strategy).

 

 

I have a small problem with some of the agent write-ups in 5th Edition. There is a certain amount of "power creep" for lack of a better term. I like the VIPER and UNTIL books, but I think some of the material is better suited for a GI Joe style campaign than straight superhero/supervillain fare.

 

I can't for the life of me figure out why VIPER would have tanks and fighter planes unless they were intending to wage conventional war with a similarly armed opponent. Basically, they would need to fight a country. Not just any country, but a country with a significant amount of its GDP going to defense spending. As a worldwide criminal conspiracy, they could do without most of this stuff.

 

If agents are built on 200 points or so, supers need to be built on about 400+ points for the feel I like in my game. Agents should be a problem in squad sized elements or higher, but a single, standard agent should be a minor annoyance if anything. Their speciality equipment shows up from time to time, but it acts more like a plot device or Mac Guffin than anything else. It should be a big deal to take out the Guns of Navarone, and it can't be if those things are common.

 

The D Soldier write up is probaly just about right, and some of the later stuff might be overdone. Just my opinion. Based on the campaign parameters, I would either boost the D Soldier or tone the others down. Actually, boosting the D Soldier is less work, so there you go.

 

Alternately, you could look at it this way. Is a VIPER Agent meant to be superior to a standard line infantryman in the average modern army? I think you could safely say that the average VIPER or UNTIL agent is meant to be on a par with elite soldiers on our world, not Joe Snuffy the Ragman. The D Soldier is meant to represent a line grunt in Her Majesty's army, so by extension he must have an elite counterpart. That person would be superior to the VIPER or UNTIL agent. Or is that reaching?

[Steel Legs]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Where can I get all the info on I.V.? I've seen nothing more than mentions in some books nothing up to the detail you-all know.

 

If she's not "really evil" maybe still some/lots of her generals are and they'd take over her job if they could so she can't trust them with the good troops so their using cast offs so when the invade Earth they get there butts handed to them.

 

I like the idea the rifts slow things down cause they don't move much and you can't rely on them much. Not just for logistics but communication too. Maybe there's no way to communicate with HQ except by sending a "runner" through the rift so comm. is limited in speed and relyableness. (that's the wrong word sorry I can't think the right one).

 

Maybe you can "piggy-back" on someone else using a rift so Tyrannon, OK his troops could suddenly appear in the middle of I.V.'s invasion and shaft everything up. So most her troops are sitting around right up near the rift on both sides guarding it so only a few troops are really&truly invading.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

The reason she's had so much difficulty in conqueroring the C.U. is because they have more character points.

 

See her agents are built on 154 points. And they are monsters when it comes down to facing off against the denizens of Dimension 135/57-G after all they only have 5 Points to build their Supers on. Granted for 5 points + Disads you can make one rough and tumble super-dude, but you take away his one charge, independant, no conscious control, OAF and he's a dweeb.

 

The CU is the first real challenge she's faced.

 

Or everyone else is pretty much on target and I'm just crazy.

[caris]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

OK, people seem to have the numbers thing down a bit for you Kirby.

 

So let me get started on the tech. “Best” is one of those fuzzy words that we through around thinking that there is only one possible objective standard for any given item, when the reality is that the criteria for “best” can be very different given the circumstances. Looking at it, you consider the “best” for weapons is Damage Classes. Raw capacity to do damage is certainly one criteria, and an important one, for weaponry, but it isn’t the only one. The Benign Empress of a Billion Worlds has other things that she has directed her military to consider when deciding on their weapon choices: reliability, portability, cost, maintenance, etc. Simply put her army’s general purpose standard issue firearm has to be efficient for the needs of her military, which is not the same as Viper’s, et. al.’s needs.

 

The Empress’s forces have to have weapons that can withstand the rigors of dimensional travel, and be functional in a virtually infinite number of situations, including radically differing laws of physics. Compared to scale that they work on, the differing environments here in our solar system are quite limited. Just that fact alone means that Earth organizations have a much simpler design process. We can maximize weapons for fighting here. The backbone units of Ista V’han’s army can not afford to do that with their standard issue weaponry.

 

The V’han Empire has vast virtually unlimited resources, compared to Earth. The problem is that it also has needs and desires that are vast compared to earth, and the Empress is benevolent. She chooses not to burden her people any more than is absolutely necessary. A military is a drain on resources if that drain becomes too great the economy and the civilians suffer. She must balance her military’s consumption of resources with the over all needs of her Empire. This has lead to her “spending” slightly less per soldier than most Earth organizations do. This is particularly true in terms of her invading forces, because she devotes a significant portion of her invasion “budget” on the post invasion phase. The follow up resources that have to come in to successfully integrate the new territory quickly and effectively with the whole Empire. Administrators, educators, experts in politics, culture, economics, doctors, technicians a virtual second army of sentient beings that need to be provided the means to live and do their jobs, just like the invading armies.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Earth is just a wargame zone.

 

After hearing reports on it beating off other alien invasions and doing some initial recon, V'han decided to use it as a testing and training ground.

 

The resources spent on limited attacks on Earth are paid back many times in the lessons learned and copying the often inqenious defensive ploys of the Earthlings for their own uses. Since the Earth program started, V'hannian defensive efficiency vs. Tyrranon, etc. has imroved 11.6%.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

After hearing reports on it beating off other alien invasions and doing some initial recon, V'han decided to use it as a testing and training ground. /QUOTE]

 

That would explain why comic books have happy endings.

 

 

/bad ParagonAlpha

[Korvar]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

As another of Kirby's players, I fully expect my suggestions to not become part of the campaign

 

One possibility is that she can't just punt her entire army through the portal to Earth. For some Dimensional Physics reason, only a small force can get through to start with, with limited armament. However, if that force can get a beachhead and construct a portal at their end, then the invasion proper can begin.

 

Perhaps the portals she has available to her aren't simply doorways you can walk through - there is a "pull" exerted on things in the wrong dimension, and without the expenditure of a fair amount of energy, they will snap back to their home dimension (there was a recent JLA book featuring the Evil Versions of the JLA, the Crime Syndicate, with something similar, although in that case, your counterpart would "snap" back into your universe 24 hours after you arrive). They have to build a gateway on our end to allow the free movement of troops.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Hmm... almost conceivable' date=' but the text suggests she wants this dimension conquered (and why not, we have chocolate!) in the relative "now." Otherwise, it's a nice possibility.[/quote']

 

Not really. She probably delegated the task out just to get him out of the way as much as conquer another dimension. Probably more to get the idiot out of her way than to conquer the dimension.

 

She just makes seem important to him so he'll, well, keep trying. But she can't give him too many resources. He might win too quickly and come bother her again. We can't have that.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Earth has one superhero that is "under the radar" - he doesn't enter into the limelight, doesn't fight crime, etc. His power is super-intelligence. That's it. He knows about Istvatha V'han, and has accepted as his only task the protection of Earth from this overwhelming threat.

 

With her forces spread out, Istvatha V'han has many, many things to worry about. Earth's defender subtly ensures that it is never the right time to attack Earth. A rumor here, an anonymous tip there, all the right contacts, and each time Istvatha V'han's eye turns towards Earth - something pops up that makes her think twice.

[death tribble]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

One thing we haven't mentioned is that the title of this thread is like a magazine article or a segment on the news.

It could be that this actually happened and The New Yorker, Vogue, Vanity Fair or Cosmopolitan published an article entitled 'Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth ?'

Istvatha V'han heard about the article and felt so embarrassed by it that she cancelled her plans for conquest.

 

Would that had been so for the follow up article

'Dr Destroyer - why he's passe.'

The writer ended up as Pate. Well the good Dr thought it was funny.

[Vondy]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

One might assume the following problems: limited actual resources to maintain order in her already over extended realm; potential or active resistance that pins down her units, the logistical nightmare of actually moving her full might into any one spot; less than helpful dimensional satraps (underlings) who may be more powerful locally than she is despite her greater overall power; scheming between said satraps - or whatever other underlings she has - that forces her to divide her attention and limit her commitment to the conquest of Earth; potential dimensional rivals who may be pressing her and bleeding off her resources (maybe she has issues with Tyrannon, much as the British had issues with Napolean when they should have easily been able to crush the American Colonies resistance); emotional instability leading to rash decisions, which might include sacking competent leaders for nominal, or imagined, offenses; Earth is a concentrated defense point, while she's way spread out; Earth's villains, some of whom are more powerful pound for pound than she is are on the same page as the hero's in this case; and perhaps dissidents in her realms are helping her targets with intelligence and whatnot. Another possibility would be a limited gateway to earth that serves as a bottle-neck for her forces, and perhaps provides a limited, time-sensitive window of opportunity for her to act in.

[Peregrine]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Lots of good ideas on this thread. My take, given all of her canonical appearances?

 

She hasn't tried hard enough yet. (circa 2007)

 

Remember, in the Galactic Champions timeframe, she did try hard enough, and grabbed a good chunk of the galaxy before the CU's Grand MacGuffin got pulled out. Truth be told, the incursions of the late 20th and early 21st centuries were probably "recon in force" missions, to see what this Earth was all about and how stiff the resistance was. Once the magic came back and she had access again, she came with a full-court press that had this dimension's defenders up against the ropes.

 

She's capable. She just hasn't made it a priority yet.

 

(Note: There's also neither a Dr. Destroyer, a Menton, nor a Takofanes in the year 3000; make of that what you will...)

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

Hero Talk magazine

 

Istvatha V'han

 

The Pacific, Central, and Atlantic Sentinels Teams, along with the Canadian Armed Forces and UNTIL Task Force managed to stop an invasion by Istvatha V'han. Eye witness reports indicated the presence of Destiny lead by Borealis, a VIPER Air Cav assualt and several independent Supers.

 

They suceeded, but the price of victory was high.

 

Three survivor from the once mighty Sentinels teams. Star Sapphire is in a coma and in critical condition, Orcale is in serious condition, but expected to make a full recovery, and Myrmidon suffered from minor injuries, but his Dree Gems were destroyed closing Istvatha V'han's portal.

 

 

 

 

QM

[rjcurrie]

Re: Istvatha V'han - why can't she conquer Earth?

 

It's funny you should mention V'han taking out Destroyer... that's what her initial surgical strike did in my campaign (well' date=' after taking out UNTIL's Gateway - it was an annoying device that could spy on her and attack her ships).[/quote']

 

Hmmm. Maybe I don't want to know, but just how did the commander of GATEWAY fare in that battle?

 

If you're wondering why I'm asking, read the write-up on GATEWAY's commander in UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom again.