Why should I care?

[VR Dragon]

One thing that has kinda upset me as a GM during the few times I have GM'ed was trying to get my players to into the game.

 

I try running a super hero game and what do I get?

 

Ex:

 

Okay as you and your friend walk down the street after the late night movie a sudden explosion rocks you and you see flames and smoke raising into the sky afew blocks down the road. Moments later you hear people screaming as well. what do you do?

 

Player 1: I don't know. I mean If I am not gaining anything from doing something about it I am start walking the other way. (a true statment)

 

Player 2: Well I start running towards the fire and take flight into the air. (Good Boy)

 

Player 3: I don't think I should get involved, since I am a reformed demon I don't see why I should go. (oh my god hand me a gun please)

 

Why do I seem to always get players who would rather play disinterested vigilantes or the loner types instead of someone with a true hero spirit?

[csyphrett]

Re: Why should I care?

 

If that's the players at work, there's a D&D mentality going on. They don't want to play a super hero game. Out of the list of options, you can try to get a new group, try a PCs as villain game on, or tell them that it is a hero game and then go after them. They're the heroes, they're targets. Maybe that will spark them up.

CES

[Victim]

Re: Why should I care?

 

If that's the players at work, there's a D&D mentality going on. They don't want to play a super hero game. Out of the list of options, you can try to get a new group, try a PCs as villain game on, or tell them that it is a hero game and then go after them. They're the heroes, they're targets. Maybe that will spark them up.

CES

 

Not really, since even DnD characters need to take plot hooks to have adventures.

 

Even without a true hero spirit, there's still plenty to reason to engage in superheroics. Fame, for one thing.

 

Ultimately, the players have to agree to buy into the hooks the GM is offering, or the GM needs to change the hooks. For traditional superheroics, the characters have to be self motivated to some extent. Characters that aren't into that sort of thing aren't really acceptable. You can go after them instead (sort of like the situation with the Xmen) but that's quite different in tone.

 

Another thing is that the sort of disinterested loner is often a cool character in media. But A) that character doesn't work so well if most people are brooding loners instead of only having 1, and those characters generally end up being not nearly so disinterested as outward appearances indicate.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Fifteen years ago when I was starting my supers campaign I specifically banned (in writing) sociopathic loners and angsty teens as characters. Some people just can't grasp subtler hints.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Why should I care?

 

There are rewards beyond gold pieces.

 

Player 1: I don't know. I mean If I am not gaining anything from doing something about it I am start walking the other way.

 

GM: OK. You walk the other way. In the distance you can still see the glow of the fire. Great guy, I can tell why your friend likes you so much.

 

Player 2: Well I start running towards the fire and take flight into the air.

 

GM: Great. You transform into Heroman and soon spot that the new Double Aces hotel/casino is in flames. People are streaming out below, some are dangling from windows. In the distance you start to hear sirens, but there's no way they're going to get there in time.

 

Player 3: I don't think I should get involved, since I am a reformed demon I don't see why I should go.

 

GM: But only reformed so far, eh? OK, you sit around and listen to the screams of desperate souls. Player 1 and Player 3, now could be a good time to go get a drink or something if you want. Player 2's going to be involved with the story, so I'm going to focus on him, the rescues and the combat for awhile. Shouldn't take too terribly long though, since only one player involved.

 

Later....

 

GM: Heroman saves the day! The crowd starts a 'He-ro-MAN He-ro-MAN' chant as he's getting interviewed by the lovely reporter from News 3. Heroman gets 3XP.

 

Player 2: Woot! Awesome. Great fight - battling it out in the burning hotel was fantastic. Hey, after the cameras stop I'll see if the reporter would like a date...

 

Player 1 and Player 3: XP? What about us?

 

GM: Sorry, no XP for getting pizza or sitting around on porch steps humming.

 

*********************************************************.

 

The GM's time and attention and experience are very precious things. Make it clear that they are both given in much greater amounts to those who act heroically and in genre. The players should understand that they're not playing Sims HERO, they're playing CHAMPIONS.

[Certified]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Although this may be passed off as roleplaying, you may want to talk to your players about their reactions. Ask them why style of game they would like to play in, and tell them, what you had envisioned for this campaign is ______. If these two don't meet, there may be a lot more walking away instead of running to the rescue. With reactions like that I would wonder if they are interested in playing a traditional supers game, saving the day as such. It may turn out that players 1 and 3 are looking for more of a peoples with powers game not a superhero game.

 

On the other side to that, does the story have some link to the characters or is it just a random event? Even though the character's might not know exactly where the explosion came from, maybe describing the general location and connections the player's may have to it would generate a stronger reaction.

 

A side note: I would really like to hear the explanation for a reformed demon being apathetic over good.

[Thanelord]

Re: Why should I care?

 

I like Supreme Serpent's way of dealing with the situation. I think if after one or two games like this the other two players still aren't interested, then it's time to find new players.

 

Thanelord

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Fifteen years ago when I was starting my supers campaign I specifically banned (in writing) sociopathic loners and angsty teens as characters. Some people just can't grasp subtler hints.

 

Pardon me whilst I wield my new found acronym: QFT. When I wrote the Halliruch Campaign, there were three rules by which all players must abide:

 

* You must be some variant of "Good." That means when there's trouble, you'll answer the call.

* You must be a Team Player (see: angsty teen/loner syndrome)

* You must want to be a member of the OSC (their unit)

 

Failure to adhere to these ground rules would make the game utterly unplayable. Utterly. Unplayable. I think it's a matter of drilling it into people; "This is what we're doing, this is how it needs to work. You can have angst, but not to the point where it interferes with being in this campaign."

[Certified]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Although Supreme Serpent's method keeps the game going, I'm not sure it's the best method to keep the players coming back. Sure it moves the story along but if it's not a story the other players want to participate in then what motivation do they have to return?

 

The argument can be made that if they don't want to play they shouldn't show up. However, and maybe this isn't true for everyone but for me gaming is a collective experience in storytelling. Crafting a tale everyone enjoys together. To ignore half the people at the table's reaction seems a bit cold.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Why should I care?

 

One thing that has kinda upset me as a GM during the few times I have GM'ed was trying to get my players to into the game.

 

I try running a super hero game and what do I get?

 

Ex:

 

Okay as you and your friend walk down the street after the late night movie a sudden explosion rocks you and you see flames and smoke raising into the sky afew blocks down the road. Moments later you hear people screaming as well. what do you do?

 

Player 1: I don't know. I mean If I am not gaining anything from doing something about it I am start walking the other way. (a true statment)

 

Player 2: Well I start running towards the fire and take flight into the air. (Good Boy)

 

Player 3: I don't think I should get involved, since I am a reformed demon I don't see why I should go. (oh my god hand me a gun please)

 

Why do I seem to always get players who would rather play disinterested vigilantes or the loner types instead of someone with a true hero spirit?

 

This seems like a clear cut case of two out of your three players not wanting to play a superhero game. I had problems years ago with suggesting a game, getting people who said “Ok, whatever” and then having crappy games. Once I figured out that I needed to, if necessary, beat an honest answer out of them in regards to what kind of game they wanted to play things got better.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Although Supreme Serpent's method keeps the game going, I'm not sure it's the best method to keep the players coming back. Sure it moves the story along but if it's not a story the other players want to participate in then what motivation do they have to return?

 

The argument can be made that if they don't want to play they shouldn't show up. However, and maybe this isn't true for everyone but for me gaming is a collective experience in storytelling. Crafting a tale everyone enjoys together. To ignore half the people at the table's reaction seems a bit cold.

 

Yes.

 

But.

 

One, they should have been aware of the type of campaign they were getting into. Two, I would hope they have specific character elements that would lead them to get involved - background, disads, etc. They've already agreed on what type of game they're going to be playing - what that collective experience is going to be like. For them to deliberately go against that, they're the ones breaking the 'social contract' and wasting the other people's time.

 

Now, if the GM did not make it clear what type of game it was going to be/the group did not have a discussion about that up front, and the GM approved characters that clearly don't have heroic motivations/inclinations, yes the GM shoulders some of the responsibility for the situation. If you approve "Rankor the Irritable" who has disads like "Berzerk when hears sneezing" "Hates authority" and "Greedy", don't expect him to be played as a paragon of virtue. If you let Lobo into your Justice League game, he's still Lobo.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why should I care?

 

One thing that has kinda upset me as a GM during the few times I have GM'ed was trying to get my players to into the game.

 

I try running a super hero game and what do I get?

 

Ex:

 

Okay as you and your friend walk down the street after the late night movie a sudden explosion rocks you and you see flames and smoke raising into the sky afew blocks down the road. Moments later you hear people screaming as well. what do you do?

 

Player 1: I don't know. I mean If I am not gaining anything from doing something about it I am start walking the other way. (a true statment)

 

Player 2: Well I start running towards the fire and take flight into the air. (Good Boy)

 

Player 3: I don't think I should get involved, since I am a reformed demon I don't see why I should go. (oh my god hand me a gun please)

 

Why do I seem to always get players who would rather play disinterested vigilantes or the loner types instead of someone with a true hero spirit?

 

 

I've seen this in other genres as well - the "disinterested character". My answer is that the onus is on the player to make a character interested in adventuring. If your character wants to run his tea shop, fne, but I am not going to kill myself sjhoehorning your character into adentures he doesn't want to partake in - so you will spend a lot of time sitting in your tea shop while the other characters actually play the game.

 

We had a player who did this regularly. When his latest character rejected our offer to join our group, we hired a town crier to advertise that we sought an adventurer to join our party. Your character doesn't have "PC" tattooed on his forehead - we'll look for someone interested and useful.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why should I care?

 

I've seen this in other genres as well - the "disinterested character". My answer is that the onus is on the player to make a character interested in adventuring. If your character wants to run his tea shop, fne, but I am not going to kill myself sjhoehorning your character into adentures he doesn't want to partake in - so you will spend a lot of time sitting in your tea shop while the other characters actually play the game.

 

We had a player who did this regularly. When his latest character rejected our offer to join our group, we hired a town crier to advertise that we sought an adventurer to join our party. Your character doesn't have "PC" tattooed on his forehead - we'll look for someone interested and useful.

 

By contrast my friend Mike insisted that "we could open a cheese shop in Bora-Bora if we wanted too" and he'd work it into the game. He was lying, Hugh has the right of it. If your PC isn't going to play nice with the other PCs, I will let you roleplay by yourself, in a corner, without plot, as long as you like.

 

"Okay! I'm in the Tea Shop, what's going on in here?!"

"Eh... *scribbles*... it's a tea shop. People wander in and out. Most of them buy tea, scones, or the odd item off the shelf."

"Are there are any cute girls?"

"Yes, there's a disproportionate number of hippie-esque chicks who move in small groups."

"I hit on them!"

"They ignore you. Okay, you guys, with the plot who are doing stuff, as I was saying before, the ceiling has begun to collapse, and the three goblin squads are now rushing at your position full tilt, both to get out of the tunnel and, seemingly, to do their best to kick your ass. What do you do?"

"HEY! I said I hit on them!"

"And they keep ignoring you. I'll get back to you in a minute."

[GoldenAge]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Sounds like a bit of a miscommunication by all parties.

 

You obviously didn't convey the totality of your expectations for this game... or the players just didn't get it.

Conversely, the players may not have done the best job communicating their character's motivating factors... or you just weren't listening.

 

Either way, a simple sit-down will clear things up. If not, there is room within the Hero System to conceive of a game that all parties will enjoy.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Here's another thing you need ... the characters need to have clear motivations for crimefighting. One of the first things I always ask a player when making a superhero character is 'why is he willing to put on a costume and risk getting hurt or killed for no pay to help a bunch of people he doesn't even know?'.

 

Obviously, the first PC doesn't have this.

The second seems to.

The third SHOULD. I mean, as a reformed demon, he should see the value of altruism (otherwise he'd hardly be reformed).

 

You should also look over the characters' Psych Lims. Does #1 have a Psych Lim for (or against) this action? Then you should enforce it. Heck, you can even carrot-and-stick-it. "#2, you get 3 XP for participating in the adventure and doing Y and Z. #1, #3, you get 1 because, well, you showed up."

 

I also agree with Hugh that it is incumbent upon the player to make a character who is both motivated to adventure and fits into the genre in question, while also important for the GM to enforce that. F'rexample, I would simply outright deny a character with 'Casual Killer', no ifs ands or buts, because that's not an appropriate choice for any genre I'd run.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Why should I care?

 

I had a player like this in one of my games. It sucks. And the player wouldn't get a clue if you hit her with a clue-by-four. We ended up doing what Supreme Serpent suggested, and she was all like, "It's not fair that everyone else is out having adventures while I'm here at my bar! Just because I ignored all those plot hooks and refused when the other PCs asked if I wanted to come! Waaaah!"

 

My sympathies, man.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Why should I care?

 

"HEY! I said I hit on them!"

"And they keep ignoring you. I'll get back to you in a minute."

 

"I'm just roleplaying them ignoring you."

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why should I care?

 

"I'm just roleplaying them ignoring you."

 

Wort wort wort! I almost put that in there, in fact.

[Blue]

Re: Why should I care?

 

Yeh... I'd beat these people about the head.

 

"Would Peter Parker ignore a fire? Would a violent loner like Wolverine ignore the fire? Would an anti-hero like Punisher ignore the fire? In all cases, NO! Now you either start acting like superheroes or you go play D&D. This the adventure people! There's no experience points for having your hero doe his laundry and surf the tube."

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Why should I care?

 

(Substance already available elsewhere in this thread. Go have a look if you need a refresher. I'll wait.)

 

Heeheehee! I gotta rep you just as soon as I can I already gave out too much in the last 24 hours.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Why should I care?

 

I'll also note that I've been on the other extreme - the 'plot hook' that makes NO sense for the character involved.

 

In this instance, my 15yr old female character in her secret ID was approached by two middle-aged male strangers and asked to put on a blindfold and be taken by said men to an undisclosed location without notifying anyone else.

 

Ummm...sorry. I knew it was the lead in for the adventure, my player knew that...but I just couldn't stretch dramatic license enough for me to go through with it. It would have made about as much sense as Captain America accepting a bribe to betray his country. So I sat that adventure out and watched the other characters run through the (ultimately frustrating) adventure. Afterwards the GM apologized and the whole thing was effectively retconned out.

[Tonio]

Re: Why should I care?

 

I wouldn't automatically say the players need to adjust. The game's supposed to be fun for all involved (or as many as possible). If half the people involved don't enjoy saving people in a fire, then they shouldn't be playing a game based around such activities. As an extreme example, if I ran a Fantasy game for 3 players who hated Fantasy and only wanted to play Supers, I'm doing something wrong, not them.

 

Now while this might be a case of players ignoring plot hooks and generally being uncooperative, it might also be a case of different expectations. Players 1 and 3 might've wanted a grittier, anti-hero style campaign. And that's fine. If that's the case, then they either need to adjust their expectations to fit into the game the GM's running, or the GM needs to change the tone of the game (and Player 2 needs to adjust his expectations). Or, better yet, some sort of middle ground. The GM might offer incentives for Players 1 and 3's characters to join the fray (maybe the demon sees something that looks like a fellow demon, maybe hint to the loner that the insurance company might offer him a reward for minimzing the damage? I dunno... doesn't have to be a reward, just something that makes it interesting). The players agree to play in a setting somewhat different to what they originally wanted to.

 

In short, the solution is communication. Yes, it's a horrible cliché, but it's still true. Maybe the players really DO want a heroic style campaign, they're just not making the right decisions? Maybe the GM thought the players wanted such a campaign, but they really want a gritty dark campaign? Make sure everybody's on the same page.

[Alverant]

Re: Why should I care?

 

A side note: I would really like to hear the explanation for a reformed demon being apathetic over good.

 

I can't speak for the player, but I to use a simile a reformed criminal doesn't always become a cop. A reformed demon just stops doing bad things and doesn't necessarily mean he starts doing good things.

 

In this case I'd get the GM to arrange for an angel to visit the reformed demon with a message like "If you really want to convince us you've reformed, you would help those people for no gain apart from our good favor."

[boomer]

Re: Why should I care?

 

I actually like games where the campaign parameters aren't announced. We had a GM tell us to make skilled normals who had Security/LE/Military backgrounds. That was it. Gave us points, etc. I ended up making John Clark from the Tom Clancy books (if you don't know the character; Ex-CIA type). We ended up getting scrolls handed to us by an Elderly Asian Gentlemen that when read gave us Powers. It was a quite good game. Now back on topic: It seems that you have 1 "I'd rather play WoW or Halo" player, 1 gung ho gotta get in the game player (love those kind) and 1 "what's my motivation again?" wanna be thespian.......

 

Have these guys/gals role played before??? It's Champions.....all Champions games usually start with "your walking down (insert place here) you see (action, noun, etc) what do you do?"

 

I also like the suggestions of just going after their characters. This would be the time to hit those two "meh" types with an ambush by Viper or something......

[Alverant]

Re: Why should I care?

 

and 1 "what's my motivation again?" wanna be thespian.......

 

I have to disagree slightly. My characters have a little philosophical bent. It has more to do with WHY a character is a hero not IS a character a hero. I like exploring the different reasons why a sane person would risk a horrible painful death or worse every day of their life.

 

In the "you hear an explosion" plot hook, my first character is trying to establish a new style/school of magic. Doing heroic acts gives credibility to his vision. (Magic is very much stuck in tradition and doesn't take to new ideas very easily.) Another one of my characters would help as soon as he gets his armor on. Originally he was a thrill seeker (and still is) but learned the importance of helping innocents. My third character would help because his goody-two-shoes ancestor spirit wouldn't let it go if he didn't. He just wants this ghost to SHUT UP! Three heroes, same action, different reasons. The GM needs to find out what motivates each character and work with that. But motivating the player is a different story.