Justifying Playable SPD

[BNakagawa]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The absolutes of the game system are the 3d6 bell curve and the 12 segment SPD chart.

 

(Assuming you're playing the rules as written)

 

Therefore, the context of your game is the only thing that determines what is playable and what isn't.

 

There is almost no difference between a game where SPD ranges from 2-4 and one where the SPD ranges from 4-8. The high end SPD characters will get two actions for each low end SPD character's action. The only difference is how much falling happens relative to your SPD and when you get your post-12 recoveries.

 

Likewise, there is virtually no difference between a game where DEX ranges from 10-20 and one where it ranges from 25-35. A 4 point difference in CVs is the same whether its between 3 and 7 or 8 and 12. The only difference is in raw DEX rolls and as a consequence some skill rolls.

[Yansuf]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I missed them, and I'm curious. Can you point some of those out?

 

 

For a long time, until the mid-to-late 90s, I tried to keep to the typical published CU speeds, which is odd since I don't use the CU. Then when the DEX-SPD inflation problem started getting bad, I talked to myt players and we installed SPD limits. Everyone but the lowest SPD characters dropped back 1 SPD and 2 or 3 pts. of DEX. Our big speedster dropped from 12 SPD to 8.

 

Your milleage may vary, but it helped my campaign a lot.

 

I sort of agree, but I recall speed inflation earlier than the 90's.

My first character was written in version 1, winter of 81-82. His speed was 5; his first 10 points of experience went into speed because he was the only PC with a speed that low.

Granted, this might have been a local problem; but many published characters had very high speeds. Voice of Terror came out in the 80's, multiple villains with speeds over 6.

 

Personally, I would prefer most supers having human or near human speed, like the original FF and X-men did. But if you run a campaign where that is the case, most published characters must be modified if you wish to introduce them.

 

Just my 2 cents worth. (Showing my age, my keyboard doesn't even have the "cents" mark on it.)

[poptoad]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

Dex and SPD inflation has been something that I've seen a lot of people complaining about' date=' not just myself. It's not the fact that the GM thinks he needs to force a stat that's worthy of condemnation - it's the 'feature creep' that's worked into the game itself that makes a 5 speed (greater than NCM, remember) the functional minimum to cope with everybody else.[/quote']

 

The real reason Dex and SPD inflation happens is because they're way, way under priced. The logical way to cope with this inflation is to increase their cost. Double the cost of each stat and you won't have that kind of creep.

 

Why this wasn't done 20 years ago is beyond me.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

That is a nice way to look at it' date=' and it would work well in a self-contained campaign. However, it would annoy me to have to change any published characters I was going to use in the game. I tend to try to emulate the standard CU setting and the pregenerated characters published for it in my builds, so I don't have to worry about that.[/quote']

 

It's not that bad IMX.

 

I do this for the vast majority of pregenerated characters that I use in my current campaign. It really doesn't take that much time to shave off a few points here and there. I just make notes on my computer, scribble on photocopied character sheets or, for those character packs I happen to have, click a few buttons in Hero Designer.

 

Certainly takes a lot less time than doing a full writeup for an NPC that will probably only appear once or twice.

 

I mean, sure, I COULD run the game to CU standards, but that's really not the story I want to tell with that game.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

There is almost no difference between a game where SPD ranges from 2-4 and one where the SPD ranges from 4-8. The high end SPD characters will get two actions for each low end SPD character's action. The only difference is how much falling happens relative to your SPD and when you get your post-12 recoveries.

 

While that is generally true, I think the issue or the OP is wanting to run a relatively Normal Joe 2 SPD character in a game where 4-8 is probably the norm...

[Arkham]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

SPD 2 _is_ ridiculously slow. Its the person who in disaster films stands there screaming while everyone else is _doing_ something. Anyone trained and alert, like your average soldier, SWAT team member, etc, can have a speed of 3 or 4 without being superhuman. And remember, SPD 5 isn't superhuman, it is just beyond 'Normal' characteristic maximum. But it is still attainable by normal people with good reflexes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The absolutes of the game system are the 3d6 bell curve and the 12 segment SPD chart.

 

(Assuming you're playing the rules as written)

 

Therefore, the context of your game is the only thing that determines what is playable and what isn't.

 

There is almost no difference between a game where SPD ranges from 2-4 and one where the SPD ranges from 4-8. The high end SPD characters will get two actions for each low end SPD character's action. The only difference is how much falling happens relative to your SPD and when you get your post-12 recoveries.

 

Likewise, there is virtually no difference between a game where DEX ranges from 10-20 and one where it ranges from 25-35. A 4 point difference in CVs is the same whether its between 3 and 7 or 8 and 12. The only difference is in raw DEX rolls and as a consequence some skill rolls.

Exactly right. It's not important what the raw SPD numbers are; what is relevant is each character's SPD compared to the other characters within that particular campaign. Even that is subjective; a lower SPD character might well accomplish more in those Phases because he has faster movement, better defenses, and/or larger attacks.

 

As you may recall, I run a SPD 9 character in a campaign with an average SPD of 5. In our last session during a fight lasting 2 full Turns she was knocked unconscious 3 times, Aborted to a defensive maneuver 4 times, and took 2 in-Turn Recoveries. That's 9 actions, or 50% of her total actions, during those two Turns. Our SPD 4 team brick had 8 full actions during the same period; two of which took down an opponent.

[nexus]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

One alternate way to view Spd (totally unsupported by the books and just a POV thing) is "air time" or page count. The PC are among the main characters in their respective stories, shows or comics so they get more of it even its not "justified" in game. IOW, they get compatible Speeds with the rest of their more innately superhuman companion a bit slower comparable to the campaign scale but it justified narratively instead of by in game reality (super reflexes, hyper trained combat skills, etc).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I sort of agree, but I recall speed inflation earlier than the 90's.

My first character was written in version 1, winter of 81-82. His speed was 5; his first 10 points of experience went into speed because he was the only PC with a speed that low.

Granted, this might have been a local problem; but many published characters had very high speeds. Voice of Terror came out in the 80's, multiple villains with speeds over 6.

 

The original (1st Ed) characters established the baseline DEX that 18-20 was a slow Super, 23-26 was pretty typical and Martial Artists started about 30. Similarly, 4 was a pretty slow Super, 5 the norm, and 6 or 7 was fast. That hasn't changed much. Of course, there was no NCM at that time, although Baseline Normal was established at 10 and 2.

 

VoT characters overall had very high SPD's and fairly low defences, IIRC.

 

Personally' date=' I would prefer most supers having human or near human speed, like the original FF and X-men did. But if you run a campaign where that is the case, most published characters must be modified if you wish to introduce them.[/quote']

 

It's easy enough to drop a SPDor two, and say 9 or 10 DEX, across the board, if desired.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

Oh, my, this brings back memories. I started playing when 1st edition came out, and we had wonderful geekfest discussions on which comic book character had how much speed... and we ended up with characters based on the comics that were bizarre. We had the 'official' books telling us how much Thor could bench press, which gave us his strength, but nothing that gave us his dex/spd. So, "Thor must be speed 6!", "If Thor is speed 6 then Captain America must be speed 8!", "If Cap is 8, then Wolverine must be 10" "Wolverine is not faster than Cap!" "If Wolverine's a 10, what's Quicksilver?" (and it goes on from there).

 

I go with the CU suggestions for PCs: 4-6 Speed, 18-30 Dex. Speedsters might have a 7 speed, martial artists Dex might hit 33 (for PCs). A really slow brick might start with a 3 speed/15 Dex, but I recommend against it.

 

Oh, and any NPCs used to fill out the roster will have low speeds and dex. I had a trio of players who insisted on playing with "Normal Characteristics Maximum" for thier Psychic, Powered Armor, and SuperSoldier characters... who got very annoyed with my npc martial artist with the 6 speed. And the new player with her female Wolverine knock off also with a 6 speed.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

It's easy enough to drop a SPD or two' date=' and say 9 or 10 DEX, across the board, if desired.[/quote']I've never seen any need to do so because IMO making SPD and/or DEX arbitrarily lower simply reduces granularity.

[Peregrine]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

To start with, NCM does not exist in a superheroic campaign except as an optional Disadvantage. This is RAW; local campaigns can (and do) vary.

 

Second, in the CU, SPD 2-3 is Skilled, SPD 4-5 is Competent, SPD 6-7 is Legendary, and SPD 8+ is Superhuman. (CU, p. 28) Obviously, a super could have SPD in the Competent range, but a non-super could have SPD in the Legendary range, so there is some overlap. Again, local campaigns can (and do) vary, but this is the official standard for the CU.

[assault]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

What SPD would The Flash get? Considering he moves at light speed and all.

 

It depends on campaign in question, of course.

 

Personally, I would be perfectly happy building a version of the Flash whose SPD was the same as that of all the other PCs.

 

Basically, in the source material he's rarely shown as zipping around while the rest of the Justice League are just standing there. In practice, he rarely acts more often than the rest of them. That is, IMHO, a high SPD is not a particularly good way to model him.

 

That said, I wouldn't be impressed if other (player) characters had higher SPDs. He would need to match the highest SPD - otherwise it would feel wrong.

 

Some time back, I wrote up a version of Kid Flash who had a 4 SPD - the same as I gave every other member of the early Teen Titans. He had a much higher DEX than the others, but most of his superspeed was a function of his powers rather than his characteristics.

 

I think that's about as low as I would go for a superspeed character. Then again, that's about as low as I would go for any superhero.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The original (1st Ed) characters established the baseline DEX that 18-20 was a slow Super, 23-26 was pretty typical and Martial Artists started about 30. Similarly, 4 was a pretty slow Super, 5 the norm, and 6 or 7 was fast. That hasn't changed much. Of course, there was no NCM at that time, although Baseline Normal was established at 10 and 2.

 

VoT characters overall had very high SPD's and fairly low defences, IIRC.

 

 

 

It's easy enough to drop a SPDor two, and say 9 or 10 DEX, across the board, if desired.

 

I agree up to a point, and that point is a niggling one. The original martial artists started at about 26 DEX. Crusader and Green Dragon were 26 and 27 respectively. Mongoose had DEX 30 and 7 SPD, and he was considered way up there. Now it looks like DEX 25 and 6 SPD is the intro to martial arts land, with the rare 24 DEX, 5 SPD in there.

[Sepia]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The real thing that makes a 'super' SPD illogical is movement.

 

If you think about it, there are plenty of normals that can take 5 actions in 12 seconds. Most trained combatants can throw 5 or more attacks, shoot 5 or more targets in 12 seconds or less.

 

What these people can't do is run 250% faster than others.

 

If you don't want your combat-effective 'normal' SPD character to also be faster than Olympian sprinters, then either drop their movement or add some sort of limitation that prevents them from using all of their actions to move.

 

The fastest real person in the world (Usain Bolt) ran 100m in 9.69 seconds and 200m in 19.30 seconds . This equates to approx 22mph. If a character has a SPD of 6 because she reacts quickly, you can reduce her Running to 5" to match Usain Bolt. Or lower like 4" and bring her down to 17mph...assuming you want the character to remain in the realm of what is realistic and not superhuman!

 

 

Math: 200m/20s=10m/s; 10m/s=22.37mph

5"=32.5ft; 32.5ft*2 NCM=65ft; 65ft*6 SPD=390ft/turn;

390ft/turn*5turns=1950ft/min; 1950ft/min*60=117000ft/hr;

117000ft/hr '/. 5280ft/mile=22.16mph

 

Of course higher SPD means more END expenditure and I use Turn Modes anytime a character is in NCM. (It is hard to make a 90 degree turn while sprinting!)

[nexus]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I mean, sure, I COULD run the game to CU standards, but that's really not the story I want to tell with that game.

 

I agree with Bloodstone. There's very few published characters that I can use unaltered (different settings, different preferences and all).

[Kenn]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I've never seen any need to do so because IMO making SPD and/or DEX arbitrarily lower simply reduces granularity.

 

The tendency to favour the "One less than a multiple of three" DEX scores that many players (including myself for several years) have reduces granularity. I suppose that may be one of the actual advantages of the "decoupling" in 6e.

 

Losing granularity in SPD was a good thing for our group. When the fastest character had three actions to every one action of the slowest (and had 2.4 times as many actions as most characters) game play was skewed, spending a lot of time on one player. Going from 4-8 from 4-12 (making most 5s 4s, most 6s and 7s 5s, etc.) we didn't lose that much granularity... there weren't that many characters in the 8-12 SPD range. The speedster still seemed fast because he was going twice as often, but was less dominating.

[Vondy]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

This may sound a little old school, but I'd allow a reasonably playable speed with the justification "protagonist."

[Peregrine]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

"That's the way to do it old school."

Yep. There's no school like the old school."

 

- The Incredibles

 

If that's old school, where do I enroll?

[bubba smith]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

"That's the way to do it old school."

Yep. There's no school like the old school."

 

- The Incredibles

 

If that's old school, where do I enroll?

when you findout let me know where it is

[fbdaury]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The real reason Dex and SPD inflation happens is because they're way, way under priced. The logical way to cope with this inflation is to increase their cost. Double the cost of each stat and you won't have that kind of creep.

 

Why this wasn't done 20 years ago is beyond me.

 

Because it's a terrible idea...

[JmOz]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

First off when you have characters with a dex of 33 and a speed of 7 in the first enemies book who's origin is basicaly "I studied Martial Arts and I hate Viper" the idea of dex inflation is laughable at best.

 

The games roots, which is often forgoten in these conversations, is that you are playing Super Heroes. A genre where it is STANDARD for a normal individual who has trained for a bit to do things that are so far and above what a real person can do that it is not funny.

 

I have no desire to judge someone elses game, a game where the characters are "real's with powers" can be very fun, so can a game where reality is something we refer to with a wink.

 

But if our desire is genre imitation, then high dex/speed scores are not unrealistic no matter what the origin is.

 

Just remember to be fair to the players (not the characters). It is not fair to charge 2 characters different amounts for similar abilities.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

First off when you have characters with a dex of 33 and a speed of 7 in the first enemies book who's origin is basicaly "I studied Martial Arts and I hate Viper" the idea of dex inflation is laughable at best.

 

Depends how you view "inflation". The issue has been with us from the outset (although the fact that we had no benchmark for "this is as high as a human can go" left the top end pretty open), so inflation in the sense of "speed and dex rising over time" is definitely not the issue.

 

But "inflation" in the sense of "these were set higher than they needed to be"? We've had that from the outset. How many Champions characters have there ever been (published) with a DEX in the "typical human" range of, say, 8 - 12? Same with CON, but these guys get pretty regular exercise (and it's CON, buy up defenses or get stunned all the time and be useless).

 

STR, BOD, INT, EGO - lots of characters in the normal range.

 

PRE not so much, but again because having a 10 means extreme vulnerability to PRE attacks. DEX and CON? Pretty much never. Yet the source material does not suggest that virtually every Super is more agile than 99%+ of the human race.

[JmOz]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

Depends how you view "inflation". The issue has been with us from the outset (although the fact that we had no benchmark for "this is as high as a human can go" left the top end pretty open), so inflation in the sense of "speed and dex rising over time" is definitely not the issue.

 

But "inflation" in the sense of "these were set higher than they needed to be"? We've had that from the outset. How many Champions characters have there ever been (published) with a DEX in the "typical human" range of, say, 8 - 12? Same with CON, but these guys get pretty regular exercise (and it's CON, buy up defenses or get stunned all the time and be useless).

 

STR, BOD, INT, EGO - lots of characters in the normal range.

 

PRE not so much, but again because having a 10 means extreme vulnerability to PRE attacks. DEX and CON? Pretty much never. Yet the source material does not suggest that virtually every Super is more agile than 99%+ of the human race.

 

Actualy, the source material DOES say that, at least IMO. I can only think of a handful of characters who I would not rank higher than a dex 20. Some tanks, a few in wheel chairs, etc... Realise I am basing this on what they do, not their origins or power profiles. Also realise I look at dex 20-30 being within the physical capabilities of humanity, just extremly rare. Bruce lee for instance would be dex 25-27 IMO, with a speed of 6...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The tendency to favour the "One less than a multiple of three" DEX scores that many players (including myself for several years) have reduces granularity. I suppose that may be one of the actual advantages of the "decoupling" in 6e.

 

Losing granularity in SPD was a good thing for our group. When the fastest character had three actions to every one action of the slowest (and had 2.4 times as many actions as most characters) game play was skewed, spending a lot of time on one player. Going from 4-8 from 4-12 (making most 5s 4s, most 6s and 7s 5s, etc.) we didn't lose that much granularity... there weren't that many characters in the 8-12 SPD range. The speedster still seemed fast because he was going twice as often, but was less dominating.

You didn't reduce granularity, you reduced SPD inflation. They're not the same thing. It's not all about SPD; other factors play a major part. Our fastest character has only 2.25 times as many Phases as our slowest (SPD 9 vs SPD 4), but she also has only 37.5% of the defenses and does only 67% as much damage. The slowest character will take 0 damage (BODY or STUN) from an attack that will Stun the fastest.