Armor Wars

[Asperion]

In the standard supers campaign, anyone with only a few million dollars in disposable income could either create or hire a powersuit for his own use. In such a reality, why would the (especially the more powerful) government still use tanks that are large, cumbersome, and inefficient, especially when compared to the powersuits that could be quickly donned and transported by the infantry. I am wondering why the traditional tank is still in use in an age that has personal body suit that would be an equal to the tank in every way. The cost for both is effectively the same so that cannot be the reason and training time would actually be less for the suit so that cannot be the problem. Lets hear from Herodom assembled as for reasons why this might be the case.

[bobooton]

Re: Armor Wars

 

1) Tanks (flying tanks!) with that kind of firepower

2) Turtle armor!

[Peregrine]

Re: Armor Wars

 

In the standard supers campaign, anyone with only a few million dollars in disposable income could either create or hire a powersuit for his own use.

 

 

That statement is not necessarily true. In fact, the question of the availability of "supertech", including but not limited to powered armor/powersuits/battlesuits/etc., is one of the key questions to answer in setting up a supers campaign. The answer to that question then informs the use of such by governments, etc.

 

If that statement is, in fact, true for a given supers setting, then it follows that governments probably would use such technology in preference to real world weapon systems. If governments in a given supers setting don't do so, then either A. it's a clue that the statement is false, and such tech is far, far less available for one or more reasons, B. whoever established the setting parameters didn't think the the consequences through or C. it has been handwaved to create the specific tone and feel for the setting as desired, and thus the implication have been largely ignored.

 

Of course, the first case (the statement is true) has a lot of implications to it. For example, given the resources available to modern, First World governments, the powered armor fielded by their agencies would likely be far more powerful than a 350 point starting character in 5e. For evidence, I point you to the 4e PRIMUS eBook, and the Iron Guard armor presented therein. Translating the Iron Guard armor to 5e terms, no 350 point character could purchase an equivalent suit of armor; in fact, few 350 point characters of any kind would even compare. Not to say that a 350 point character couldn't defeat an Iron Guardsman; it would be especially possible to design a 350 point character specifically to defeat an Iron Guardsman. But show me a 5e GM who would allow a character the equivalent of an Iron Guardsman in a 350 point game...

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Every super campaign I've ever seen with power armor characters either has the armor invented by its wearer or stolen/confiscated from its inventor. While the inventor might be able to put it together for a few million dollars, he's an exceptional individual, just like the guy who doesn't die when doused with radiation or toxic chemicals. As to why a few exceptional inventors don't just mass-produce their creations, well, things get real un-comic-booky once you start down those lines.

[Mathew]

Re: Armor Wars

 

In a fantasy world where man-sized armors are more power than real world tanks, how powerful would the fantasy world TANKS be?

[Spence]

Re: Armor Wars

 

In the standard supers campaign' date=' anyone with only a few million dollars in disposable income could either create or hire a powersuit for his own use. In such a reality, why would the (especially the more powerful) government still use tanks that are large, cumbersome, and inefficient...... snip...[/quote']

 

 

They don't.

 

Mecha baby, Mecha

 

What self-respecting military wouldn't have some Bushnell's in its Order of Battle, or maybe a Gernsback if they could.

 

[JmOz]

Re: Armor Wars

 

I always answered this as a question of cost. However most goverments in my world do have groups of armored soldiers, but they normaly will have more tanks. In my world the US goverment has about 1000 Battlesuits, most in the hands of two goverment agencies (SAT and PRIMUS (About 500) ) while some in each branch of the service (450 or so). With the other 50 in the hands of various agencies like the treasury department who have 25 (Rep for the person who knows why) and other groups such as FBI

[Jalinth]

Re: Armor Wars

 

I can see the Secret Service needing power armour. Those 25 suits should do nicely, considering the small numbers. There is a very memorable scene in Gust Front by John Ringo involving the such.

 

In some settings it is a questions of the availability of materials and the lack of infrastructure for mass production. It is quite possible for the methods used to not scale up well for mass production. For a one off suit, it's fine. The really slow methods used for the prototype don't matter. You're only building a couple of them.

 

When it comes to making them for the army... well if you need vast amounts of nanowoven carbon fiber armour, and at best can make enough for 20 suits a year, or the plant that builds the power packs can only ship enough powercells for 8 suits ever 16 months then you run into limits on the number of suits. It's not that the raw materials cost for 1 suit is really high, it's mass producing the supertech components that is the problem.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Armor Wars

 

I always answered this as a question of cost. However most goverments in my world do have groups of armored soldiers' date=' but they normaly will have more tanks. In my world the US goverment has about 1000 Battlesuits, most in the hands of two goverment agencies (SAT and PRIMUS (About 500) ) while some in each branch of the service (450 or so). With the other 50 in the hands of various agencies like the treasury department who have 25 (Rep for the person who knows why) and other groups such as FBI[/quote']

 

I'll play. The treasury has to guard Fort Knox, The Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and the West Point Bullion Depository. If they didn't have powered armor and blasters, Viper would have cleaned them out a long time ago.

[Patriot]

Re: Armor Wars

 

. With the other 50 in the hands of various agencies like the treasury department who have 25 (Rep for the person who knows why) and other groups such as FBI

 

To protect Fort Knox?

[Jalinth]

Re: Armor Wars

 

While I can see the United States Mint Police needing power armour, since United States Bullion Depository is on Fort Knox, an Army post, I can see them just using army issue power suits.

 

Until 2003 the ATF, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, the United States Customs Service, and the United States Secret Service were all under the Treasury Department. That's when they got moved to Homeland security.

[Beast]

Re: Armor Wars

 

why do police departments still use horses

because horses are big and imposing,can be seen at greater distances and if 1 steps on your foot your in a world of hurt

Tanks are big and can be very loud

 

for Iron man it has always been way too expensive to make and army of his suits

pretty much you either get a bunch of less effective suits and hope to overwhelm the god armor or somebody else builds a god armor that might take on the Iron man mk whatever number we are up to now

 

if the government can build a better suit(and lots of them) then you just wiped a character type from your game

 

now the character could be a government type,in one of many,but something has to be special about him that he can take on hordes of his fellow armored warriors

[JmOz]

Re: Armor Wars

 

While I can see the United States Mint Police needing power armour, since United States Bullion Depository is on Fort Knox, an Army post, I can see them just using army issue power suits.

 

Until 2003 the ATF, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, the United States Customs Service, and the United States Secret Service were all under the Treasury Department. That's when they got moved to Homeland security.

 

Well have to say that I did not realise that the Secret Service had gotten moved, which is the reason why I gave them the suits

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Armor Wars

 

In a fantasy world where man-sized armors are more power than real world tanks' date=' how powerful would the fantasy world TANKS be?[/quote']

 

Well, according to published HERO System stats since Steve Long took over, pretty darned powerful. The armor and weaponry of the M1A1 Abrams main battle tank in The Ultimate Vehicle totally dwarfs any published Champions powered armor this side of Dr. Destroyer's.

[Greywind]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Bruce Wayne: [about the prototype Batsuit] Tear resistant?

Lucius Fox: This sucker will stop a knife.

Bruce Wayne: Bulletproof?

Lucius Fox: Anything but a straight shot.

Bruce Wayne: Why didn't they put it into production?

Lucius Fox: Bean counters didn't think a soldier's life was worth 300 grand. So what's your interest in it, Mr. Wayne?

Bruce Wayne: I wanna borrow it. For, uh, spelunking.

Lucius Fox: Spelunking?

Bruce Wayne: Yeah, you know, cave diving.

Lucius Fox: You expecting to run into much gunfire in these caves?

Bruce Wayne: Look, I'd rather Mr. Earle didn't know about me borrowing it...

Lucius Fox: Mr Wayne, the way I see it, all this stuff is yours anyway.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Armor Wars

 

With the other 50 in the hands of various agencies like the treasury department who have 25 (Rep for the person who knows why) and other groups such as FBI

 

The US Secret Service.

 

Well have to say that I did not realise that the Secret Service had gotten moved' date=' which is the reason why I gave them the suits[/quote']

 

They didn't. They still report to the Treasury Department. I think Jalinth was just lumping multiple agencies together.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Armor Wars

 

One way to do it would be to have most "super" suits be what they call "devises" over in the Whateley universe -- basically gear that by all rights shouldn't be able to work because it flat-out violates the laws of physics, but that thanks to its creator's mutant gift or other superpower and faith in his or her work manages to do so just fine all the same. Well, just fine with the occasional reliability issues usually associated with mad science, in any case...especially when used by somebody else. And of course it's basically impossible for anybody other than the original creator to replicate, let alone patent and mass-produce...

 

(The setting does, as I understand it, have non-devisor battlesuits as well. They're noticeably more down-to-earth and the long-term power supply issue in particular apparently hasn't been solved to anybody's satisfaction yet. Bluntly put, for extended action these things depend on somebody else carrying the spare battery packs or otherwise providing the power they need...)

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Armor Wars

 

One way to do it would be to have most "super" suits be what they call "devises" over in the Whateley universe -- basically gear that by all rights shouldn't be able to work because it flat-out violates the laws of physics, but that thanks to its creator's mutant gift or other superpower and faith in his or her work manages to do so just fine all the same. Well, just fine with the occasional reliability issues usually associated with mad science, in any case...especially when used by somebody else. And of course it's basically impossible for anybody other than the original creator to replicate, let alone patent and mass-produce...

 

(The setting does, as I understand it, have non-devisor battlesuits as well. They're noticeably more down-to-earth and the long-term power supply issue in particular apparently hasn't been solved to anybody's satisfaction yet. Bluntly put, for extended action these things depend on somebody else carrying the spare battery packs or otherwise providing the power they need...)

 

The RPG GODLIKE had a very similar explanation. Since in that game everyone's powers were basically psionic in nature, the devices were just foci for the person's own will to power. They would never work outside of the super's range of influence.

 

I think Iron Man 2 covered this ground nicely. There were one or two things that the government and other manufacturers just could not replicate, so there were only one or two Iron Man suits out there. The inferior models made by Hammer would probably be on par for what the miltary would have in a supers world, and damn few of them at that. Local law enforcement would have to make due with heavy weapons and special containment vehicles, and damn few of them.

 

Some sheriff in Georgia would have to pray that someone could get to him from Atlanta or DC could get to him before his town was flattened.

 

If I were a low end villain, I would strictly work the small to medium cities and towns. No real supers to hassle you, and no MARS teams.

[JmOz]

Re: Armor Wars

 

The US Secret Service.

 

 

 

They didn't. They still report to the Treasury Department. I think Jalinth was just lumping multiple agencies together.

 

 

Sorry Blue, but I checked with the Secret Service website, and Jalkinth is 100% right about them being under homeland security, I learned something new, which is always a good thing.

[Jalinth]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Generally the finer points on how a foreign government is structured is not something I have memorized. I knew that the US Secret Service was part of the Treasury Department thanks to Tom Clancy novels. The knowledge from my second post mostly came from a quick trip to wikipedia, as I was wondering who actually guarded the bullion depository and went on from there.

 

The theory that the armour is nothing more then a focus for your powers and so useless to anyone else is one I've seen in a few places. It does quite neatly explain why you don't see the American 1st Mobile Infantry responding to an alien invasion.

[casualplayer]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Tanker training is a few months, and just about anybody can achieve it with determination and dedication. Pilot training is much more intensive and demanding and only a select few are qualified to even try, physically and mentally. Tankers are enlisted and pilots are officers. Fast track a pilot past their psych eval and you get another Ankylosaur. Fast track a tanker through and if he goes rogue the rest of the crew brings him back in line.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Armor Wars

 

In a "realistic" use of powered armor, you need to compare what role power armor is for, and how it stacks up to a tank price wise. Fallout is a good example of a universe where tanks became outclassed by powered armor, so there are no more tanks. In HALO, powered armor is too expensive to use, so tanks are still good.

 

Most comic-book universes, still have tanks to make sure the reader can "relate" to the universe. It's basically the same reason that Reed Richards is Useless

[GoldenAge]

Re: Armor Wars

 

How many of those super-cool concept cars do you see on the road today?

 

Some of the technology adapted to power armor may eventually reach the field, but as a complete unit they remain under wraps and far too expensive or impractical for production (unless you're a uber-rich super villain - then you can create an army of power armored agents or teleporting robots!!!!!!!!!!)

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Armor Wars

 

Every super campaign I've ever seen with power armor characters either has the armor invented by its wearer or stolen/confiscated from its inventor. While the inventor might be able to put it together for a few million dollars' date=' he's an exceptional individual, just like the guy who doesn't die when doused with radiation or toxic chemicals. As to why a few exceptional inventors don't just mass-produce their creations, well, things get real un-comic-booky once you start down those lines.[/quote']as it was from marvels guardsmanII after the feds confiscated the armor to create the armored GUARDSMEN UNIT to combat rouge super and mutants following the saentinel robots being declared unconstitutinal in the 80's

[Nevelon]

Re: Armor Wars

 

One reason to still have tanks is that they have room for gizmos. There is only so much stuff you can cram into a suit. Super-tech tanks can have massive sensor arrays, onboard supercomputers to help analyze the information, ECM, ECCM, etc. They can coordinate the data from a squad of power armor. They have mass, a presence on the battlefield. Armor tough enough to laugh off anything man-potrable and guns big enough to stop anything equal or less then another tank. When you are postulating the tech for mass produced power armor you need to keep in mind what that would do to other aspects of the military. You can't compare the 'suited infantry of 2050 with the tanks of 1980 and expect parity. There is a lot of military SciFi that deal with these issues. I like SJG's Orge universe for a gritty look at infantry on the nuclear battlefield, and David Drake's Hammer's Slammer's novels for what every tank should aspire to be. Hovertanks FTW (well, at least until you get anti-gravity up and running)

 

...Heads off to the bookshelf to re-read some books...