Here's the scenario

[quozaxx]

You have been tracking a new speedster called Cheetah. Cheetah has wonderful mental defenses and that makes him very hard to find, or effect with mental powers.

 

Cheetah is a "hit and run artist." He runs inside a jewelry store or bank, grabs the money or jewels, and runs back out before anyone can even sound an alarm; or the security can draw their guns.

 

There is a large reward out for him and you have gotten close to finding him. But, he's not stupid. He doesn't hang around to talk. He doesn't get anywhere near bricks. And he can usually outrun an area effecting attack (Holding his Phase then Running away).

 

But today, luck is on your side... Or is it? He is in a kinda of a box alley way. 3 sides are blocked off by walls (or other obstructions). The 4th side, you are in front of.

 

The open exit you are in front of is about 25m wide! A large area he can run through. And he perceives you. (perhaps a special detect of some sort if you are invisible).

 

Now here's the kicker. He has a much higher DEX than your DEX (including any other DEX modifiers like Lightning Reflexes etc).

 

So, he goes first. He can easily just run around you. Probably Not even getting near you. Now, he's not attacking you. So Blocking may not be allowed. (or Diving for Cover), and Abort is for defensive actions. Not attacking someone (or blocking their escape).

 

So, what DO you do????

[Lucius]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

PRESENCE ATTACK!

 

Hey, it may make him hesitate long enough to enable me to DO something

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Track him on a palindromedary

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Cougar (Mutant Martial Artist and Speedster) grabs the garbage bins an blocks the alley.

 

Riot (Brick, Detective, and Duplicator)'s Duplicates Block the Alley, Coordinate Grab To Hit.

 

Golden Hunter (Malvan Battlesuit w/Wings) - Spreads his Wings and Blocks the Escape.

 

Cuddles (Mystic Were Cat) uses the Wait Maneuver.

 

Gun Wolf (Were Wolf and Gunslinger) Sprays the alley with Blaster Fire.

 

TK Jones (Telekinetic) - Leave an Invisible Force Wall Blocking the alley. Tries a TK, Area Effect Grab.

 

Lifeguard (Photokinetic) - Fills the alley with blinding light (Darkness, Area Effect) and then Blasts him with a Photonic Laser.

 

Adamus (Brick w/ Body of Adamant) - Uses Brick Tricks to Block the alley with the pavement.

[Badger]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Badger- Dude, his highest attribute is DEX, so how friggin high is this guy's DEX. Probably, go on instinct. Try to put his arms out at the guy's first sign of movement. If he is like most speedsters he has met, he is liable to be arrogant and see how close he can get to him on the escape. This plan has very little chance of working, but if it does the poor guy will be the victim of one monster clothesline. (note: I could AoE blast him as he'd have to move ridiculously fast to escape it, but that might take down a decent portion of the city and GMs frown on that amount of collateral damage.)

 

Frosty Bob- pulls out his guns and find out just how many bullets this guy can dodge, worry about collateral damage later.

[Christopher]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Landslide:

She certanly knows what to do to stop him from escaping - grab his legs or lift im of the ground to disable his movement - but actually getting close enough and hit him is near impossible. This guy is her anti-thesis. She can run fast, but not at Speedster level or reaction times (SPD 5, low DEX). She might have a seduction power, but that won't work (either because of his mental defenses or the impropper setting to use Strinking Apereance/Charm). She has no ranged attack (or at least none she could use to hit him).

So unless he has a obvious vulnerabilty to attractive women, that leaves Presense Attack or Acting to either distract him or suprise him. Both not her best values.

 

Actually her first step when hearing/encoutering him would have been to search for a speedster hero that could help her (like I said, it takes few to outrun her so others might have more luck) or a "enabling device" to even the odds: Forcefield barrier, "even-faster" superspeed belt, huge area of effect entagle (she may be affected too, but she can break out easily). Trying to outrun/outreakt a speedster is a total waste of time.

[Asperion]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Purposely attack the speedster. You know that cheetah will escape but you will force him to use speed. That means he will stick with foot movement and not hop into a vehical. That means he can be tracked by smell or hearing or a good tracking skill. Also, alleys are always dirty/dusty/muddy. That means you now have a copy of Cheetah's shoe prints and can track him by sight of his footprints. Pretty much any tracking ability other than mental can track him back to his hideout. When you find that, it's all over but the crying.

[Vulcan]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Smack the GM for giving him detect invisiblily. That's my character's schtick; villians with 'detect invisible' make him pretty much useless.

 

Beyond that, well, this train has already been sent on it's tracks, I'll let the railroad go run without me.

[Cygnia]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Prospero -- Having done enough research and investigation prior to this encounter to have more than a fair knowledge of Cheetah's abilities (and limitations), Prospero's own DEX has already been boosted by Aid that should put him on par with the opponent's, Couple that with Suppressing Cheetah's running and that should be a rather nasty shock. Mental Defense is great and all, but it's no substitute for Power Defense.

[Drhoz]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Vitus : Grease spell the road behind me. As he runs past and helplessly skids in place, drop his DEX to zero with Slow spells. Then break both his legs.

 

Rover : Superspeed. Overtake, and drop Qualarr mines to glue him in place.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Smack the GM for giving him detect invisiblily. That's my character's schtick; villians with 'detect invisible' make him pretty much useless.

 

Beyond that, well, this train has already been sent on it's tracks, I'll let the railroad go run without me.

 

I have to admit, that was my first thought.

 

A lot of depends on just how fast he is; not in terms of DEX/SPD, but in terms of actual movement. If he can't generate a reasonable range penalty by running away, most of my characters can throw an AE Hex Entangle or Radius Flash of some sort, which would stop him cold since he couldn't Dive For Cover the same segment he blows past me. Lightspeed, on the other hand, might simply be able to overtake him; Lightspeed's got flight with no turn mode, so he's unaffected by terrain *and* can keep up if Cheetah starts trying to lose him by ducking into alleys and such.

[Lucius]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Smack the GM for giving him detect invisiblily. That's my character's schtick; villians with 'detect invisible' make him pretty much useless.

 

Beyond that, well, this train has already been sent on it's tracks, I'll let the railroad go run without me.

 

 

 

Wow. You create an invisible character. He creates one who can detect invisibility. So you smack him.

 

Would you smack him if you created a heavily armored character and he created one with Armor Piercing or maybe No Normal Defense attacks?

 

Or if you created a character with a No Normal Defense attack and some villain has the defense?

 

I can see getting upset if EVERY villain could see your supposedly invisible character, but I'm afraid I can't see getting that worked up just because ONE happens to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary, on the other hand, is upset if even a single villain shows up with a crab cannon

[Vulcan]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Wow. You create an invisible character. He creates one who can detect invisibility. So you smack him.

 

Would you smack him if you created a heavily armored character and he created one with Armor Piercing or maybe No Normal Defense attacks?

 

Or if you created a character with a No Normal Defense attack and some villain has the defense?

 

I can see getting upset if EVERY villain could see your supposedly invisible character, but I'm afraid I can't see getting that worked up just because ONE happens to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary, on the other hand, is upset if even a single villain shows up with a crab cannon

 

Perhaps I should say in a little greater detail why this scenario makes my character, in particular, completely useless.

 

My character has some martial arts, high dex and speed, no defenses worth mentioning, a high DCV, and invisibility. That pretty well covers it.

 

He knows I there. So now my lower movement will not suffice. I have no range attacks. And he has a higher DEX anyway, so here's how the scenario goes down:

 

Phase 12, Dex 27+: Cheetah blows past me at whatever high running speed he has.

 

Dex 26 (yeah, it is a rather low-end game): I stand there and watch the contrail fade, thanking god that no one will have pictures of this embaressment.

 

 

So what would be the point of my having even shown up for this? Or are you just objecting to me having weighed in on this WWYCD in the first place?

[Christopher]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Phase 12, Dex 27+: Cheetah blows past me at whatever high running speed he has.

 

Dex 26 (yeah, it is a rather low-end game): I stand there and watch the contrail fade, thanking god that no one will have pictures of this embaressment.

Phase 12, Before Dex 27: Presence attack and hit at least his PRE. Go befeore him.

 

Actually, Landslide is in a similar situation. She has no ranged attack and she can't supprise him with powers. But I just said how she would deal with this: Instead of using a useless strenght against him or trying to overtake im on his strenght, she would just alter the setting so she can catch him (like using an AOE entangle Grenade that chatches them both, so she can break free and just collect him; or a mega-area sight flash grenade, so she can use alternate senses).

Of course you need to think outside of your paths and have a reason to be prepared to win this.

[phoenix240]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Phase 12, Before Dex 27: Presence attack and hit at least his PRE. Go befeore him.

 

Actually, Landslide is in a similar situation. She has no ranged attack and she can't supprise him with powers. But I just said how she would deal with this: Instead of using a useless strenght against him or trying to overtake im on his strenght, she would just alter the setting so she can catch him (like using an AOE entangle Grenade that chatches them both, so she can break free and just collect him; or a mega-area sight flash grenade, so she can use alternate senses).

Of course you need to think outside of your paths and have a reason to be prepared to win this.

 

 

Which really doesn't change the idea that, yes. as the rules stand, some characters are pretty hosed in this scenario. IF you knew it was coming and IF you had some justification for getting the right Power there's a possibility. But as it stands, there isn't a way to effectively interpose/block a character that moves before you do in Hero. It's been a complaint for awhile and there's been some attempt to plug the hole but nothing really solid that I know of.

 

 

But yeah, many would have to go pretty outside the box for this one even if it meant losing Cheetah this time and trying to set him later. But I think that's part of the point here. It happens in the source material a fair bit. Character meets their anti-thesis, someone who nullifies their Standard Operating Procedure, gets bested (or at the villain escapes) and they have to come up with some other way to best them on their next encounter, perhaps even failing more than once.

 

The problem with the scenario isn't Cheetah's abilities (aside from that rules issues) its that we don't know what weaknesses he has that can be exploited. Is he overconfident? a showboater, a coward? Do his power have some disrtinctive flaw or hinderance? There's nothing wrong with a villain that can't be defeated (at least not easily) by brute force and straight line thinking even one that side steps the protagonists typical schtick but there has to be an alternative that could be reasonably come up with.

 

A scenario that requires some thought or something more than obvious tactics isn't a Railroad, IMO. This scenario MIGHT be one if Cheetah has no weaknesses or failings that the character can reasonably be expected to learn or be able to exploit but there's no way the OP can be expected to know about everyone that will post.

[Christopher]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

But as it stands' date=' there isn't a way to effectively interpose/block a character that moves before you do in Hero. It's been a complaint for awhile and there's been some attempt to plug the hole but nothing really solid that I know of.[/quote']

Again, what is against presence attack? You can most likely claim the "escape mode" bonus (after all, he is running from you - implying that he could not fight you head on, for whatever reason), when you have persuasion you may "bluff" him that this is your low speed (another +1d6 or +2d6).

Sure, you could not intercept him once he has his phase - except for a trigger that takes no time to activate - but that only means you have to prevent him from acting before you, wich is where a good PRE attack and interaction skills can save the day.

[phoenix240]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Again, what is against presence attack? You can most likely claim the "escape mode" bonus (after all, he is running from you - implying that he could not fight you head on, for whatever reason), when you have persuasion you may "bluff" him that this is your low speed (another +1d6 or +2d6).

.

 

A Presence attack rmight work if you're character is a Pre monger and/or that's his weak point. it's not dependable enough to rely on as a balancing factor to the "I can just run right by you." issue in the rules. I don't think there would be any huge bonus involved with some pretty clever role playing or situational modifiers coming in to play. Cheetah doesn't want to fight, he wants to get away, is planning to flee and is probably pretty sure he can easily get away. Unless the character in question is famed for being fast so there's some question on who is the fastest. There may even be penalities involved.

 

 

But that's not really the point. There isn't a Maneuver that I know of in Hero to simply blockade/guard an area that someone with higher Dex or Speed won't just blow pass without any risk of reprisal. That's what makes this scenario tougher for allot of characters.

[Steve]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

There's also END to consider. Yeah, he's fast, but how much fuel is in the tank? If I am slower, but have more END or move more efficiently and can track him somehow, then all the DEX in the world won't help you when you are burning STUN to keep your powers going.

[FrankL]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Garrett can he outrun the bullets from the machine gun?

 

Bolt uses his ranged attack and flight to catch people. Not much he can do here. Another member of the group is Blaze who can control flames. She would try to blockade the open end of the alley with flames.

[sinanju]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

There's also END to consider. Yeah' date=' he's fast, but how much fuel is in the tank? If I am slower, but have more END or move more efficiently and can track him somehow, then all the DEX in the world won't help you when you are burning STUN to keep your powers going.[/quote']

 

Ah, that would be the "human running down a gazelle" approach. You are nowhere near as fast as a gazelle, but you can just jog after it implacably, so it never gets a chance to rest, and eventually walk up to the exhausted critter and kill it. It could take all day...but it can work.

[Arkham]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Mr. Blackwings, having seen him, lets him run away. But then he will simply have all the crows in the city eventually wear him down wherever he may run. ( Unless he manages to get inside someplace a murder of crows cannot follow )

Of my PCs, he is the only one whose usual modus operandi is well suited to the task. N-Ray with scads of telescopic vision and rapid ( see through the eyes of all crows ), and his main attack powers being Line of Sight, Area of Effect, Indirect ( And low dice with reduced penetration. )

[Ice9]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

But as it stands, there isn't a way to effectively interpose/block a character that moves before you do in Hero. It's been a complaint for awhile and there's been some attempt to plug the hole but nothing really solid that I know of.

Is this really an undesirable result though? From my POV, escaping from a slower character that they're not surprised by is something that I would expect a speedster to do. If you want to catch a speedster, you'll need more of a plan than "try to grab him".

[phoenix240]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

Is this really an undesirable result though? From my POV' date=' escaping from a slower character that they're not surprised by is something that I would [b']expect[/b] a speedster to do. If you want to catch a speedster, you'll need more of a plan than "try to grab him".

 

 

No, it's not out of place for a character with concept "Superhuman speedster" to be able to run right by someone notably slower than them. But in Hero System as it stands it doesn't require a significant gap in reaction time and its always automatic. It also isn't restricted to the character concept "Speedsters" that's just how the games initiative rules work which leads to some weird disconnect like making common tactics like blocking someone's way or guarding someone extremely difficult or even worthless. Someone with Dex 12 is not that much faster than someone with Dex 11 but they could still pull off the same thing.

 

 

Even if fiction, unless the speed difference is huge (or its a big part of the character's shtick) the faster character being able to out maneuver the slower isn't usually treated as completely automatic. Some games handle this with more fluid initiative rules so there's almost always a slim chance the faster character might lose initiative unless the gap is suitably large. I don't think anyone think its a crippling hole the rules but I have seen it lead to some odd situations and GM fiating in games before especially Heroic ones where things like trying to bodyguard and blockade movement were more common.

[Christopher]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

I don't think anyone think its a crippling hole the rules but I have seen it lead to some odd situations and GM fiating in games before especially Heroic ones where things like trying to bodyguard and blockade movement were more common.

"Jumping into the line of fire" is covered in 6E as a special chase of "Dive for Cover", to wich you can abort.

[Houston GM]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

I like this scenario, since there are a lot of ways different characters could solve the problem.

 

1. Presence Attack, as Lucius suggested. It's available to lots of characters.

 

2. Entangle based on ECV and EGO. The Mentalist's EGO may exceed Cheetah's DEX, and nothing in the scenario indicates that his EGO (as opposed to his Mental Defense) is anything special.

 

3. Similarly, an EB that targets using ECV but is resisted using ED. (Sounds strange, but a PC in one campaign built her primary attack that way.)

 

4. A lot of altitude with a long-range attack (line-of-sight or megascale range). If you can sit 2 miles up and plink him from above, he's going to need to get under something to avoid you. And then he's effectively cornered. Call in some allies while he's trapped.

 

5. If you have a megascale movement power, flush him out into an open area, then run him down. One speedster of my creation could do a Passing Strike (or similar maneuver) on any target between him and the horizon. If he misses (due to NCM penalties), he could turn around and do it again.

 

6. If you've flushed him into the open (with nobody around), that also opens up the possibility of using megascale AoE attacks. If the area is 1 km (or wider across), that reduces the effectiveness of Cheetah's Dive for Cover.

 

7. Cheetah may perceive the character, but not recognize them as a threat. If you're a shapeshifter appearing to be something harmless (or friendly), he may have no reason to run. A truly skilled shapeshifter won't catch him in the alley. He'll be in the bank or jewelry store disguised as the loot.

 

8. Investigative powers can allow a character to find Cheetah after he gets away. Tracking Scent is one possibility. Another is using N-Ray Vision and Speed Reading to read the address of his driver's license as he runs by. Criminology and Deduction might work. Sufficient levels of Luck work too. The investigative powers allow you to catch him later when he's asleep.

 

9. For most characters with reasonable investigative skills, catching Cheetah in box alley isn't the plan. You're expecting him go first and run past you. But when he does run past you, that's when he hits the real attempt to catch him (like Vitus' Grease spell).

 

 

Between the PCs that I've GMed for and the PCs/NPCs I've created, I've seen every single one of the possibilities mentioned above. There are plenty of characters who don't have a way to catch him, but most teams have some option.

[phoenix240]

Re: Here's the scenario

 

"Jumping into the line of fire" is covered in 6E as a special chase of "Dive for Cover"' date=' to wich you can abort.[/quote']

 

There were rules for it in 5th too but it's not really the same thing.