Captain Liberty Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 I'm not talking about the character writeup. But why the name? I really dislike using established hero names for a product that doesn't relate to the established names. Both DC and Marvel have Nighthawk characters: one is a Western character and the other a Batman clone (strangely enough). They could have just used Knighthawk and had all the difference the situation demanded. And even had a closer link to Batman, which is what he is supposed to be, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Re: Why Nighthawk? Originally posted by Captain Liberty I'm not talking about the character writeup. But why the name? I really dislike using established hero names for a product that doesn't relate to the established names. Both DC and Marvel have Nighthawk characters: one is a Western character and the other a Batman clone (strangely enough). They could have just used Knighthawk and had all the difference the situation demanded. And even had a closer link to Batman, which is what he is supposed to be, anyway. I think there's been a Knighthawk somewhere too. It's really hard to find a name that hasn't been used in some comic book somewhere. I don't have a problem with the name. I have a problem with the character. He's boring and has a duck on his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 My own opinion of Nighthawk is that it must have taken great effort to come up with a character so lame that it actually made Crusader look cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Why Nighthawk? Why not? Originally posted by Captain Liberty I really dislike using established hero names for a product that doesn't relate to the established names. As Agent X said, It is very hard not to duplicate names that have appeared in the comics before at sometime or another. Knighthawk, while cool, really brings to mind shining power armor with wings to my mind. Speaking just for myself, Nighthawk has gone from being one of my least favorite Champions, to one I find myself falling back on and enjoying immensely as an NPC contact for my players. He's begun to develop his own style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Ah, the Nighthawk bashing thread. My campaign PC team, for about the lax 10 years has called themselves the "Knight Hawks". It was either that, or the Falcons. Nighthawk existed in my campaign, asa vigilante. The PC's (most of whom are public or no ID types, sorta like the Avengers) are current;y searching for him so they can arrest him for copyright violations. Merchandizing makes most of their revenue, and Mr. Nighthawk has been giving them a bad name. Running around at night in a black outfit, peeking in peoples windows, assaulting juveniles...his madness must be stopped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 nightwho? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Damnit! Nighthawk was my first PC. (1982) Grumble, Grumble. (I named him before knowing about the Defenders) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Look on the bright side. Nighthawk is not Seeker. I like Nighthawk more than like some of his team mates or wannabe team mates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by death tribble Look on the bright side. Nighthawk is not Seeker. I like Nighthawk more than like some of his team mates or wannabe team mates. Some of the comments I've seen posted about the character: Nighthawk stole his name from another character. Nighthawk is a Batman-clone-wannabe. Nighthawk wears a duck on his head. Nighthawk was trashed by Mechanon on the cover of Champions, and by a gang of schoolchildren in USPD. I think we may have Seeker 5E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 At least we havent seen his face on a billboard yet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Oh heck with it, I'll defend the poor guy. I do think he's better than Seeker, but that's me. Nighthawk stole his name from another character. Very hard to come up with an original name in the super hero genre, what, are we going to accuse Defender of ripping off Marvel's non-team? Nighthawk is a Batman-clone-wannabe. I made this accusation myself, that he was TOO Batman, but the fact he joined the Champions and interacts a lot more willingly with them (even wanting to lead them) shows he has a difference in style and direction. He's only stuck as a clone if you insist on RPing him as one. Nighthawk wears a duck on his head. Depends on who is drawing him. In some pics, it looks too pointed to be a proper bill. Nighthawk was trashed by Mechanon on the cover of Champions, and by a gang of schoolchildren in USPD. Okay, most heroes might get trashed by Mechanon, and ...for all we know, he might have been able to pull of the block or dodge of the century there. The kids, well, he doesn't get 'trashed', he just is drawing back as he doesn't want to hurt them. They're being mind controlled fer cryin out loud. I think we may have Seeker 5E. Nah, Seeker would have been UNconcious under the pile of schoolchildren on a cover, the billboard with his smile behind him, and, of course, having no Resistant Defenses, might have a #2 sharpy stabbed in him by one of the tykes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Why not Nighthawk? Somebody on the team had to suck really badly just to make the rest of the Champs not look so bad by comparison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheImperialKhan Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Re: Re: Why Nighthawk? Originally posted by Agent X I think there's been a Knighthawk somewhere too. It's really hard to find a name that hasn't been used in some comic book somewhere. I don't have a problem with the name. I have a problem with the character. He's boring and has a duck on his head. Maybe you'll like my version better: http://www.geocities.com/blademaster01757/nighthawk.html Now mind this is not a starting character. As a starting character Nighthawk was built using 3rd Edition, which gives you an idea of how old he is. And yes he's definately a Batman clone. But in the universe that he came from Batman is an old pulp character with little fame or noteriety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 You know, I liked Seeker a *lot* more than I like Nighthawk... especially Ultimate Seeker. At least his origin story was bleedin' original. I mean, Australia is not usually the first place you think of when you hear the word 'ninja', and yet they actually came up with an explanation that fit well within martial arts movie genre conventions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by Chuckg You know, I liked Seeker a *lot* more than I like Nighthawk... especially Ultimate Seeker. At least his origin story was bleedin' original. I mean, Australia is not usually the first place you think of when you hear the word 'ninja', and yet they actually came up with an explanation that fit well within martial arts movie genre conventions. The old "Seeker; Australian for Ninja" bit, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by lemming Damnit! Nighthawk was my first PC. (1982) Grumble, Grumble. (I named him before knowing about the Defenders) If it's any consolation, Lemming, I like the pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Hmmm. Am I the only guy who makes up all my own NPC heros and villains? Except Foxbat. I LOVE Foxbat. Although I re-did him to make him a little more bad ass. And The Fox. He's just too cool to pass up. And Ogre. One of my favorite moments as a GM was when the players came across Ogre all alone. As they got closer, they saw he was sitting on the curb, crying. The Martial Artist player walked over and sat down next to him. Ogre told him he was sad because he was a failure as a super villain. The Martial Artist told him "You're not really all that bad. You're really tough, you know." Ogre said "You really think so?" MA told him "Sure, sure." Ogre then tried to haymaker the MA, who easily blocked the attack. Ogre then collapsed on his shoulder crying and blubbering while the MA patted him on the back and the other PCs pretended not to notice. Hmm. I guess I DO use the ready made villains... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by Hermit If it's any consolation, Lemming, I like the pic. Thanks. Sam Bell drew it based on a Superman outline. I forgot to mention: In the Con Game I ran last year, people could play their own or use one of my PCs. The player who used my Nighthawk wound up playing the Champions's Nighthawk in Steve Long's game. phydaux: I wouldn't say I make up all of mine, but a mojority are and any I use are stripped down and rebuilt from scratch by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 I don't why "why" per se, but I do know what. What is a character that actually makes me miss Seeker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storn Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 I didn't care for the costume design for Nighthawk. Til I had to draw him for the first time. Which was the cover of Champions (if anyone cares). It was at the same time that Alex Ross made the Ninja Science Team Gatchatman look really cool (Battle of the planets). Nighthawk quickly took on that kinda quirky cool in my head and is my ode to Ross and NSTG. The other element is the bill... to me? Nighthawk is a secret Seattle Seahawks fan. You won't see it in the write up, but he's got year round tickets and tries to get to the games as much as possible... especially when the Seahawks play the Milennium Lions. So that bill is really a Seahawk logo. Now, I really like drawing Nighthawk. I'm bummed that he is so poorely recieved by the Hero public. I never liked Seeker (the fact that he was an Aussie was neither here nor there... more like that he was an Erol Flynn Ninja that seemed like a huge disconnect). My one question is that in the Watchers of the Dragon, there was a perfect character to take Nighthawk or Seekers roll within the Champs... and that was Nightwind... who was a Dick Grayson with 2 Desert Eagles basicaly... just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 After using Nighthawk in my games, I've begun to warm to him., and oddly enough the Nighthawk Agent Fantasy/Agent Reality sequence in VIPER also helped crystallize what I liked in him. (No one's going to make "Where's Dynomutt" jokes about the Nighthawk in the second picture.) Much the same thing happened with me and Seeker. I was very cold on him initially, but when I had a chance to work on the improved version in the original Champions Universe, I found myself playing with his plot hooks and I came to like him very quickly when I had a chance to see what stories he could generate. There *are* a finite number of names out there, but I've never bought into the argument that this is a license to be intellectually lazy. You don't want to "cross-thread" a character's identity with an established character. especially in work for publication (unless you're deliberately doing an homage). Published superhero RPGs should do their best to stay clear of the names and visuals of prominent comic characters; in fact, I changed Juggernaut and Cobra's names in Classic Enemies for this very reason. For me, "Nighthawk" is o borderline case, the Squadron Supreme chsracter's prominent enough for me that it takes a little mental adjustment to disassociate him from the Champions character, and that's unfortunate. But Marvel's Nighthawk was never one of the big leaguers, and enough time has passed since his published heyday that most people probably won't have a problem with this. Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 I'm going to give Nighthawk a second try. I'll have to change his name, as I am already using it. I like the Seattle Sahawk bit, mostly cause my campaign used to be based there. I need a new martial artist type hero in the campaign, my main PC one just got elevated to become Ming the Merciless (His Kung Fu was very strong) Seeker I played as a joke, actually. Ddin't he ever get cold in winter in that outfit? Some stuff I did with him: He secretly played himself in the Champions Soap Opera, he was a secret agent for the Supreme Sorceror of Evil, had never been to Australia, and learned all his martial arts by watching Kung Fu movies. His weapons were bought out of cheap magazines. Basicly, I made his entire origin a story a lie, and him a confidence man. He became very wealthy, and the players loved exposing him. He is still out there of course, plotting his revenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 I think Nighthawk has the best costume out of all of the Champions. It, at least, has some character to it. Defender wears battle armor (yawn), Ironclad wears a tunic and sandals (exciting!), Witchcraft wears robes (woo hoo) and Sapphire dresses like slut (like a majority of female pop artists). His cowel only looks like a duck if you want it to look like a duck. It is not a duck. It is a hawk... thus the name NightHAWK. His name is not NightDUCK... and if it was I'm sure you'd all complain about how he's a rip off of DarkWing Duck, who is a rip off of Batman anyway. Anyway, I don't get why people don't like Nighthawk. Everything that has been posted so far has been far from convincing. That's like saying, "I don't like that guy." "Why?" "Cuz he's a poo poo head and he smells funny... and he has a duck on his head." Whatever. I'd choose Nighthawk in a 1 on 1 fight with any of the other Champions. But that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Well if you're choosing him to LOSE that fight, then I agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Don't sell Nighthawk short... Ben could be right, especially if Nighthawk has a chance to prepare and ambush. He's very versitile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.