Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

[danbuter1]

I've noticed this over the last few years. Any time someone posts a character, they include all the individual power costs for everything. I've never really understood why. It just clutters up the sheet, and makes it hard to read.

[Steve Long]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

This isn't a rules question, so I've moved it.

[Christopher]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

I've noticed this over the last few years. Any time someone posts a character' date=' they include all the individual power costs for everything. I've never really understood why. It just clutters up the sheet, and makes it hard to read.[/quote']

Why would you not show every value? It is important to see errors in the writeup. And each of the three Power Values has it's meaning:

Base Points: Determines Range; the Cost before Advantages

Active Points: The best guideline on how "powerfull" an attack or power is, relative to another. Important for Drain/Aid and Endurance calculation

Real Cost: The character Points you have to spend on the power after all Limtiations. Obviously important to see if the cost add up right. Especially important for VPP-Powers.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

So the math can be checked by the GM? So you can modify them easily without trying to remember how the heck you priced it out in the first place? Because most (but by no means all) of the export formats for Hero Designer include it and most of us are not capable or not willing to make new ones? Because in 6E it can be important to know exactly how much Advantages are on a Power for Damage Adding reasons? Because people copy the examples in the books and the books show the cost so you can understand how it was built? Because most people with enough experience with the system to build their own characters don't have trouble reading them?

 

Take or leave any of the above reasons. I'm sure there's more.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Ooh! This really pushes my buttons. There is a reasonably good discussion of this stickied at the top of the rules forum. I think that there should be two sets of character sheets.

 

One should be for design and building. This is for out of game use where the player interacts with the referee about the character and ensure that it is game legal and that it does what the player thinks it will.

 

The other should be for gameplay. To me, this sheet should be the GUI between the player and the system. It should encourage the player into the genre being played and help the player become the character and interact as the character with the gameworld.

 

My experience is that the current character sheet is a huge disincentive for new players to the system - all they see are huge amounts of numbers and jargon and nothing about the ability to do anything you want within your game or how cool the character they are looking at actually is.

 

 

Doc

[Ragitsu]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

 

Seriously?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Have a look at the following threads - they all contribute to this topic

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/67556-Cotu!

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76035-Cost-Free-Character-Sheet

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/78746-Sample-Convention-Character-Sheet

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/43140-The-Ultimate-Character-Sheet

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Seriously?

 

Absolutely!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

I've noticed this over the last few years. Any time someone posts a character' date=' they include all the individual power costs for everything. I've never really understood why. It just clutters up the sheet, and makes it hard to read.[/quote']

 

However, when posted here, it is pretty important to put the numbers because this is a community of number geeks looking at a number heavy game. If you want the community to look and comment on the character then they will want to see exactly how it was built...

 

Doc

[djkester]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

... I think that there should be two sets of character sheets.

 

One should be for design and building. This is for out of game use where the player interacts with the referee about the character and ensure that it is game legal and that it does what the player thinks it will.

 

The other should be for gameplay. To me, this sheet should be the GUI between the player and the system. It should encourage the player into the genre being played and help the player become the character and interact as the character with the gameworld.

 

 

Agree totally. In fact I would suggest for some players there is no need to see the build version. The GM can help them create the character based on concepts etc... The final out come of the character building process can be distilled down to only game time information. BTW: this isn't even the power's costs. The GM can have a copy of the build sheet should a game time reference to details be needed.

 

I know the size and scope of the mechanics of Hero is a real hurdle to some of the folks I play with.

 

However, those people aren't here reading the forums. For me I want to see how you designed the character. I learn a lot from the details on the builds and sense you had to do it design the character I appreciate you sharing.

[brionl]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

However, when posted here, it is pretty important to put the numbers because this is a community of number geeks looking at a number heavy game. If you want the community to look and comment on the character then they will want to see exactly how it was built...

 

Doc

 

Perzactly.

When I'm posting something here, one of the major things I want feedback on is the points cost of various things. I use Hero Designer so I'm unlikely to get then totally wrong, but frequently you can get suggestions to "spend less on A and more on B" that are very helpful.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

I've been doing it that way for so long -- much of the time by hand -- that it's only occurred to me in the last ~3 years that someone would have a good reason to not.

 

As GM, there's no way in aitch-ee-double-hockey-sticks I want to see a sheet without. As a player I can certainly see how an easy to read version with only what you need to play could be extremely helpful during play, but when I'm building the character I'm going to be using the points anyway.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Generally speaking, I'd rather have it all in one place. Especially once Adjustment powers and such come into play.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind hiding some of the crunch electronically on spreadsheet, but in my mind you're not saving all that much space on the sheet so I don't know that it's that big of a selling point for me.

 

Your still going to have long blocks of text for most powers so you can see the relevant advantages and limitations (though you could drop the values from the main sheet)

 

So something like this maybe?

 

Energy Sword: 2d6 HKA + (AP, PEN) - [No STR Bonus, OAF] 5

 

and then hover over would show the more familiar

 

21 Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2) (52 Active Points); OAF (-1), No STR Bonus (-1/2) 5

[The Main Man]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

I design HD export templates both with costs and without costs myself. I think that costs are good for character approval, but I also think that fewer numbers becomes more immersive. When I post characters here though, of course I post the numbers.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

My preferred export formats for Hero Designer are cost and modifier-free. I use these for my own characters, and when I'm running convention games. However, if the GM requests a character sheet with everything, that's no problem.

[Tasha]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

I've noticed this over the last few years. Any time someone posts a character' date=' they include all the individual power costs for everything. I've never really understood why. It just clutters up the sheet, and makes it hard to read.[/quote']

 

because the output template they use included the costs. Also some commenter (myself included) like to see all of the costs as it helps sometimes to make recommendations.

[Tasha]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Ooh! This really pushes my buttons. There is a reasonably good discussion of this stickied at the top of the rules forum. I think that there should be two sets of character sheets.

 

One should be for design and building. This is for out of game use where the player interacts with the referee about the character and ensure that it is game legal and that it does what the player thinks it will.

 

The other should be for gameplay. To me, this sheet should be the GUI between the player and the system. It should encourage the player into the genre being played and help the player become the character and interact as the character with the gameworld.

 

My experience is that the current character sheet is a huge disincentive for new players to the system - all they see are huge amounts of numbers and jargon and nothing about the ability to do anything you want within your game or how cool the character they are looking at actually is.

 

Doc

 

I respectfully disagree. For anyone but a complete noob the costs can come quite in handy at times. I like seeing everything spelled out on a sheet. For those who don't like it it is possible to edit HD sheets (all but the PDFs) to include whatever you want on a character sheet.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

For conventions, I use a mostly numbers-free charsheet. Very rarely will anyone need to know how much their EB or Force Field costs in Real or Active points in the course of the game.

 

For my Teen Titans Go! game:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/74885-6th-Edition-Character-Sheet?p=1931880#post1931880

 

For my Lucha Libre game:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/74885-6th-Edition-Character-Sheet?p=1931680#post1931680

[Tech]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

In the 5e campaign I'm in, whether GM or player, the powers are written out in their entirety with advantages or disadvantages. I've not heard any complaints in them. In some cases due to the complexity of the power, we're all glad to see them because if and when the power changes, we won't have to figure out what in the world we did the first time.

[Tech]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

I should also add that even my villain sheets have everything written out for the same reasons. As a GM, I want to know what's going on when I put the villain's stats on paper in case I want to change or update it later.

[Christopher]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Anotehr good reason the write the Advantages and Limitations:

Certain advanced Rules allow you to modify this.

The APG has Rules on how to add advantages/take Limitations with a Power Roll or do the same with Change Environment (when affecting the enemy, only as long as he pays Endurance). Not the best situation to find out that half the nessesary values are missing....

[Ice9]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

My preferred export formats for Hero Designer are cost and modifier-free. I use these for my own characters' date=' and when I'm running convention games. However, if the GM requests a character sheet with everything, that's no problem.[/quote']Are these built-in formats, or did you make a custom one? I've been looking for something like this, because all the existing ones are excessively bulky for my tastes. So far, I just roll my own (manually), but an automatic export would certainly be useful.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Are these built-in formats' date=' or did you make a custom one? I've been looking for something like this, because all the existing ones are excessively bulky for my tastes. So far, I just roll my own (manually), but an automatic export would certainly be useful.[/quote']

 

I use the one in this thread.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Why do people post power costs on their character sheets?

 

Having seen some of the convention formats, I actually like them. It makes sense on a casual use basis to have a clean, uncluttered sheet, especially for new players.

 

I think the problem is that the game has just become much more complex over the years. When I started playing this game in 1983 or so, I regularly did up entire characters on 5x8 index cards, front and back (without the backgrounds). I had a plastic recipe file I stole from my mom to keep them in when I was GMing. If a character was really complex, you might need a sheet of yellow legal paper or a couple of cards, but most did not. It didn't matter because a lot of the options we have in character generation now simply did not exist. Heck, there were only like ten skills in the whole game.

 

Nowadays, I would have to look at the person I was working with to figure out if they needed, or wanted to look at, all those numbers. You know, the character sheets are a turn off to some new players. I have heard Champions called the Star Fleet Battles of supers games more than once. When dealing with totally new or inexperienced players the question would be, "As a GM, could I turn this guy loose in a game with a modest VPP and not want to slit my wrists?" If they know the rules well enough to handle something like that on the fly, they won't be bothered by the numbers.

 

So I kind of agree with Doc D. Maybe there should be a working copy of the sheet and a full math version for the GM for many situations.