Why is Speed so unpopular?

[John T]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

People (players or sometimes NPCs) get overlooked when their segment comes around' date=' only to realize too late that they missed their phase.[/quote']

I see this all the time in variable-initiative RPGs, too. People forget it's their turn, regardless. Some just like to blame a "different" system for their own mistakes, from what I've seen.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

As the OP first mentioned, outside the Hero Community, SPD is unpopular.

 

I think it's picked on because it's one of the key mechanics that is more or less unique to the Hero System.

 

I mean, Car Wars uses it, SFB uses it, but they aren't RPGs.

 

I suspect it's just being thrown out there because outsiders don't use it, aren't used to it, and just claim not to like it as a knee-jerk reaction.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Which I would regard as completely unacceptable behaviour.

 

So is coming in with an Alien character, a Mutant, a Cyborg, a Robot, or an altered human as a concept "unacceptable"? Those characters would presumably be allowed to have superhuman stats, since they are Superhuman. It seems like "not Superhuman" becomes comic relief if their concept prevents access to the abilities which allow a competitive character to be constructed in a cost-effective manner. I would suggest that, in all editions prior to 6e, a "highly trained and skilled combatant" screamed "High DEX" - that gave him OCV, DCV, Initiative and fed to Speed. Reasoning from effect, this was what a highly trained combatant would logically purchase.

 

I consider it "completely unacceptable behaviour" to allow some character concepts access to mechanical advantages unavailable to other character concepts absent some offsetting advantage to those other concepts. What benefit do characters without access to superhuman characteristics receive in your game to level the playing field and ensure all concepts have areas where they can shine over other concepts?

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So is coming in with an Alien character' date=' a Mutant, a Cyborg, a Robot, or an altered human as a concept "unacceptable"? Those characters would presumably be allowed to have superhuman stats, since they are Superhuman.[/quote']

 

Not to split hairs, but that's just a misconception drawn from pop culture. There's no reason to assume they would be superhuman. They could just as easily be subhuman, or merely equivalent to human.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Alternately' date=' nearly everything in the system is broken, because almost everything requires regulation.[/quote']

 

"With great power there must also come--great responsibility."

[Clonus]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

As the OP first mentioned' date=' [i']outside the Hero Community[/i], SPD is unpopular.

 

I think it's picked on because it's one of the key mechanics that is more or less unique to the Hero System.

 

I mean, Car Wars uses it, SFB uses it, but they aren't RPGs.

 

I suspect it's just being thrown out there because outsiders don't use it, aren't used to it, and just claim not to like it as a knee-jerk reaction.

 

No, I played and ran Hero campaigns. It was fine as a player when I didn't have to do the work, but I never liked it as a GM. I'm just too lazy for it.

[Clonus]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Y

That would perhaps lead to someone changing his concept to accomodate his design..

 

Or just plain ruling out the option of ever playing a trained human on the grounds that they're too inferior to compete. Which is realistic I suppose.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Not to split hairs' date=' but that's just a misconception drawn from pop culture. There's no reason to assume they would be superhuman. They could just as easily be subhuman, or merely equivalent to human.[/quote']

 

Actually, if one looks to the source material, while the "non-humans" often have superior physical power - Strength, CON, Defenses, etc. - it typically seems like the "normal/peak humans" have superior OCV, DCV, etc. - ie better DEX and SPD. Counterintuitively, the Captain America's, Batman's, Green Arrows and Daredevils seem MORE likely to have "beyond NCM" stats in those areas.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Or just plain ruling out the option of ever playing a trained human on the grounds that they're too inferior to compete. Which is realistic I suppose.

 

If that's the game one wants. However, it seems like "the smartest men in the world" often don't have SuperInt as a superpower, but were smart before gaining powers. For every Leader, there's a few Lex Luthor's, Tony Stark's and Reed Richards'.

 

Removing Captain America, Daredevil, Batman, Green Arrow, etc. from contention seems to pull a lot of the source material characters. If one wants that sort of game, great. If not, less great to lose that archetype.

 

Now, if we held ALL characters to NCM levels unless higher than NCM is actually part of their schtick, that would seem very workable. As an example:

 

- Slow Supers would have SPD 2 and DEX 8 - 10. Base CV's might be 3 - 4.

- Standard Supers might have SPD 3 and DEX 11 - 15, with base CV's of 4 - 5.

- Well trained (or very experienced) Supers might have SPD 3 - 4 and DEX 15 - 18, with base CV's 5 - 6.

- "Peak Humans" might have SPD 4, or maybe even 5, DEX 18 - 21 and base CV's as high as 7.

- Anything higher (maybe SPD 5, certainly 6 or 7), DEX above 21 and base CV's above 7, would require this be part of their schtick.

 

So Captain America/Hawkeye (or Batman/Green Arrow) might have a SPD 4, DEX 20 and base CV's of 7, but these would be higher than most teammates, with Iron Man and Thor having SPD 3, DEX 12 - 15 and base CV's of 4 - 6. Only characters like Quicksilver or Spider-Man would have a 5 or 6 SPD, DEX 23 - 25 and a DCV (likely not OCV) higher than 7.

 

The game wouldn't play any differently than with standards like:

 

- Slow Supers would have SPD 4 and DEX 18 - 20. Base CV's might be 6 - 7.

- Standard Supers might have SPD 5 and DEX 23 - 26, with base CV's of 8 - 9.

- Well trained (or very experienced) Supers might have SPD 5 - 6 and DEX 26 - 29, with base CV's 9 - 10.

- "Peak Humans" might have SPD 6, or maybe even 7, DEX 29 - 33 and base CV's as high as 11.

- Anything higher (maybe SPD 7, certainly 8+), DEX above 33 and base CV's above 11, would require this be part of their schtick.

 

It's the comparables, not the absolutes, that make a character exceptional.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Alternately' date=' nearly everything in the system is broken, because almost everything requires regulation.[/quote']

 

Hero System is a tool kit. It's not just hammers, screwdrivers and a socket set, there's a pile of power tools in there too. That is not a broken kit, it's just one that has to be treated with some respect and forethought (or you're likely to hurt yourself).

[torchwolf]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I find these perceptions ... odd. Is there any game system in which you're not "standing around until your next action"? Is there any game system in which movement is not tied to your next action (absent an unusual class feature or power)? Having such perceptions about Hero but not typical round-based systems is even ... more odd.

I don't think it's a common perception, I just mention it as an argument that I've seen come up during discussions but very seldom in the middle of a game session.

I based my comment on some specific arguments taken out of context from extensive discussions about pros and cons of various game systems.

Off-hand, I can only think of Shadowrun and Chill having Turn-based systems which does not incorporate movement as Actions (instead treating it as negative modifiers to Actions if moving at full velocity).

 

Then again, one argument in favor of Hero vs Shadowrun was actually how much better the SPD chart worked in comparison to "1 Combat Phase each 10 rolled Initiative" (Shadowrun through 3rd edition).

 

Can you imagine a D&D player asking "why does my movement rate increase if I get an extra Standard Action?" Of course not' date=' they make the obvious inference from the rules ("because movement is one of the things you can do during a Standard Action") and their troubles disappear. So why is player is mysteriously unable to make the exact same inference ("because movement is one of the things you can do during a Phase") when learning Hero?[/quote']

I cannot say about D&D in practice since I have never played any d20 system (except Kult) since D&D was in 2nd Edition...

[phoenix240]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've run into the the "just standing around" issue with Speed fairly frequently. I never experienced more downtime than with other systems. There's always some period where you're not actively participating in a fight, at least as far as rolling dice goes. But you don't have to veg out. Pay attention to what's going on, think about your next move, talk tactics with other people waiting or even role play. Just because its combat doesn't mean that has to stop. And considering your next moves means less dithering when your turn does come up which speeds the game over all.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Hero System is a tool kit. It's not just hammers' date=' screwdrivers and a socket set, there's a pile of power tools in there too. That is not a broken kit, it's just one that has to be treated with some respect and forethought (or you're likely to hurt yourself).[/quote']

 

I disagree. HERO is the most broken system I have ever encountered; it has no internal balance at all.

Definitions:

Internal Balance: Balance from within, the rules themselves. 'The rules don't let your character do this ridiculous thing. It's simply not legal.'

External Balance: Balance from without, from the GM. 'The rules let you do this ridiculous thing. It's perfectly legal, but the GM might say no.'

 

I've seen HERO characters who could destroy the known universe in a single phase. I've seen a character who had scads of Telescopic on a Detect Criminal sense, spaceworthy Life Support, and a pretty much irresistible Ego Attack Does Body who just hung out on the moon and zapped criminals as they came into his view as the Earth rotated beneath him. There's nothing within the system itself stopping someone from dropping all his points on a huge AE Energy Blast and some Lightning Reflexes so he goes first all the time and plays Alpha Strike (seen that too).

 

Whether this is a bug or a feature is, of course, in the eye of the beholder, but that's off-topic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've run into the the "just standing around" issue with Speed fairly frequently. I never experienced more downtime than with other systems. There's always some period where you're not actively participating in a fight' date=' at least as far as rolling dice goes. But you don't have to veg out. Pay attention to what's going on, think about your next move, talk tactics with other people waiting or even role play. Just because its combat doesn't mean that has to stop. And considering your next moves means less dithering when your turn does come up which speeds the game over all.[/quote']

 

Very true. I prefer to pay attention during combat so I can see the flow of the battle and plan my next move. I also prefer, as a GM, to have the opposition role playing, and NOT to have to wake up the player whose character just took a hit. If anything, the possibility you may want to Abort should cause you, the player, to pay attention throughout the battle.

 

That said, I have sometimes put my head down if my character is KO'd, and only surveyed the battlemat again when he recovered to at least the "vaguely aware of surroundings" level. Having been unconscious for 2 turns, my character is not aware of developments in that period until directly observing or being advised of them after recovering consciousness.

[Ice9]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

The one issue I've seen with representing speedsters entirely via powers instead of Speed is that you get "gaps" where the player didn't anticipate a particular situation, or it's unusual enough that making a power to cover it is unwieldy.

 

For example:

Ok, so you're the Flash. You have SPD 4, but that's ok because you have enough Running and Autofire to blitz through a whole room of mooks. But suddenly, you need to run through a base, quickly entering a number of rooms, hitting commands on the computers inside, and locking the doors behind you. Entirely in-concept for the Flash to do - but your powers won't cover it (this would need either some rather dubious infinite-Triggered TK, or an extremely expensive AoE TK + Clairvoyance thing).

 

Now a GM can handle this, if they're willing to be a little loose with the rules and allow "reasonable" actions with a power skill roll, regardless of the hypothetical active points. But as a player, there's certainly the temptation to take the guaranteed effect which doesn't rely on a generous interpretation.

[Ice9]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

On another point - high Speed being balanced out by the points spent. I find that this varies a lot by the character guidelines used for the campaign.

* Equal limits (12 DC attacks for everyone) actively encourage high Speed, to the extent it's allowed. Why be slow and powerful when you can be fast and equally powerful?

* No limits makes it more of a trade off, but Speed is still a very potent thing, and nobody's going to want an actually low Speed.

* Adjusted limits is what you need to make low Speed a non-sacrificial choice. As in, the brick with SPD 3, OCV 7? He needs to hit much harder than the SPD 5, OCV 12 martial artist. Not like +2 DCs harder, more like twice as hard.

 

I came up with a system to actually calculate this, measuring Offense Factor and Defense Factor. IIRC, Offense Factor was:

(SPD+1) * (Hit% vs Avg) * (Damage - AvgDEF)

So if the average foe has DEF 15, DCV 8, then:

SPD 5, OCV 12, 8 DCs -> OF 74, and the SPD 3, OCV 7 brick would need a 15 DC attack to match up.

Of course, there's defense too, but Speed helps to an extent there as well, by allowing more defensive manuevers and recovery.

 

However, in practice, I found that system unnecessarily rigid and haven't used it. Instead, I just have an "Average Hero" example character, and the guideline is that for every area that you exceed that, you should be below it elsewhere, by a roughly equal amount. That said, I probably would limit SPD to a small spread, if the issue ever arises.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

The one issue I've seen with representing speedsters entirely via powers instead of Speed is that you get "gaps" where the player didn't anticipate a particular situation, or it's unusual enough that making a power to cover it is unwieldy.

 

For example:

Ok, so you're the Flash. You have SPD 4, but that's ok because you have enough Running and Autofire to blitz through a whole room of mooks. But suddenly, you need to run through a base, quickly entering a number of rooms, hitting commands on the computers inside, and locking the doors behind you. Entirely in-concept for the Flash to do - but your powers won't cover it (this would need either some rather dubious infinite-Triggered TK, or an extremely expensive AoE TK + Clairvoyance thing).

 

Now a GM can handle this, if they're willing to be a little loose with the rules and allow "reasonable" actions with a power skill roll, regardless of the hypothetical active points. But as a player, there's certainly the temptation to take the guaranteed effect which doesn't rely on a generous interpretation.

 

Allowing 3 or more Overall Levels as a Framework slot can cover this in a little more defined way.

Just assign a roll to complete the task as fast as humanly possible and then every step down the Time Chart is -3 to that base roll.

Overall Levels can be applied to almost any roll skill or otherwise (Cramming is the only exception) so the only GM required handwave is allowing the levels in the Framework to begin with.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So is coming in with an Alien character, a Mutant, a Cyborg, a Robot, or an altered human as a concept "unacceptable"? Those characters would presumably be allowed to have superhuman stats, since they are Superhuman. It seems like "not Superhuman" becomes comic relief if their concept prevents access to the abilities which allow a competitive character to be constructed in a cost-effective manner. I would suggest that, in all editions prior to 6e, a "highly trained and skilled combatant" screamed "High DEX" - that gave him OCV, DCV, Initiative and fed to Speed. Reasoning from effect, this was what a highly trained combatant would logically purchase.

 

I consider it "completely unacceptable behaviour" to allow some character concepts access to mechanical advantages unavailable to other character concepts absent some offsetting advantage to those other concepts. What benefit do characters without access to superhuman characteristics receive in your game to level the playing field and ensure all concepts have areas where they can shine over other concepts?

 

 

I don't view people altering their character concept to accomodate whatever BS mechanical exploit they come up with after the fact as proper. Concept drives the design of a character sheet. Not the other way around.

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I was flipping through V&V today. Honestly, I don't see a difference between how action order resolution is handled in that and how it is in Hero. Worded different, laid out different, but the effect is the same.

[sinanju]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I don't view people altering their character concept to accomodate whatever BS mechanical exploit they come up with after the fact as proper. Concept drives the design of a character sheet. Not the other way around.

 

Well, then, I'll just have to work out the "BS mechanical exploit" first and then reverse engineer a character concept to fit.

 

Then explain to you how the mechanics evolved organically out of my pristine character concept.

[JmOz]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I know, throwing kerosene onto a fire BUT: Why is it that it is always a 100% one way or another. Many of my characters evolve both in concept and mechanics as I build them, Trying to model exactly what I want from a rules point of view instead of going the easy route is normal for me...

[Lucius]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Shiva: The way to encourage building to concept is to refrain from punishing some concepts or rewarding others.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Powers

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

In higher-power games' date=' 5-10 SPD. By well I mean everybody has their day in the sun. Typically, high SPD characters compromised on defenses and some damage, so any time area effects were common their SPD advantage evaporated in aborts, and against tough boss monsters they'd do piddling damage after defenses. Typically, low SPD characters compromised on CV and had high defenses, so high CV opponents were a problem, but they rarely need to abort and were great against most boss monsters due to superior damage output. It was a tossup against mooks. Both seemed equally bad or good against mentalists and sense-affecting powers.[/quote']

That is actually the imperssion I got from reading the official writeups and character generator in Champions 6E.

 

Green Dragon is a classical example of Martial Artist for me:

Good SPD (7)

Lousy defenses (10/10; 18 CON; no Resistant ED)

Dodging he has up to 14 DCV

His strongest attack is 13D6 with either 11 OCV/7 DCV or 8 OCV/8 DCV or 10 OCV/9 DCV but only in a Grab.

 

Call me crazy' date=' but I like Speedsters with ridiculously high speeds. Of course to me, a ridiculously high speed is a SPD7.[/quote']

Then I am crazy and have ridiculous asumtions about "high SPD" too.

Like I said, that is all I think a speedster needs if the otehr heroes are build accordingly.

 

No' date=' I played and ran Hero campaigns. It was fine as a player when I didn't have to do the work, but I never liked it as a GM. I'm just too lazy for it.[/quote']

For me, it is the Kind of work a "Computer could do better". I am just at a loss how to teach him that....

 

Or just plain ruling out the option of ever playing a trained human on the grounds that they're too inferior to compete. Which is realistic I suppose.

Real world realist? Certainly!

Comicbook Realistic? Hell, no!

 

I know' date=' throwing kerosene onto a fire BUT: Why is it that it is always a 100% one way or another. Many of my characters evolve both in concept and mechanics as I build them, Trying to model exactly what I want from a rules point of view instead of going the easy route is normal for me...[/quote']

For me it's also a combination. Like the comic books, my concept tend towards the absolute, unbeatable all knowing powerhouse. But the constraints of a Budget and the rules against absolutes helps to keep that in check.

[lemming]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I know' date=' throwing kerosene onto a fire BUT: Why is it that it is always a 100% one way or another. Many of my characters evolve both in concept and mechanics as I build them, Trying to model exactly what I want from a rules point of view instead of going the easy route is normal for me...[/quote']

 

This.

 

Though we went mostly toward a pointless model for our games so we could just balance effect. This method usually means you have to be able to balance the players more than the character sometimes. And it's not for every player either, but it got worked out over many years.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Well, then, I'll just have to work out the "BS mechanical exploit" first and then reverse engineer a character concept to fit.

 

Then explain to you how the mechanics evolved organically out of my pristine character concept.

 

I wouldn't accept said character.

 

I require players to give me their character concept first. Before the character sheet is made.

 

However, I will work with the player to create an acceptable character sheet that matches the likes and desires of both the player and GM.