A week long look at Champions Complete

[BlueCloud2k2]

I started playing Champions in 1998 (4th ed) because some friends found out I played DnD and invited me to sit in and play.

 

I fell in love with both the game and the system.

 

I immediately dug around online and found a copy of the Big Blue Book and used it both for my own champions games, but also for a Final Fantasy VII inspired technomagic game and an Aliens inspired star hero campaign.

 

A few years later 5e was released, and it took no time at all to adapt as all they really did was increase the options (I would guess that 90% of the costs stayed the same).

 

Here lately I picked up a copy of the 6th Edition Core Rules book. Didn't like it much, and I hated the format. And I agree that the color scheme gave me a headache.

 

But you know what? It still had a couple of gems in the Power Advantages and Disadvantages section such as AVAD replacing AVLD.

 

As to you losing your 4e books, I'm sorely tempted to give you my copy of the BBB (Champions #450 by ICE) I would seriously have to think it over as I use it as my "loaner copy" for people new to the game.

 

I would say check out the 5e books if you have the funds, as really you could call it "4e The Sequel."

[Enforcer84]

lol the mods are afraid of a guy ranting about newer editions? If that was the case they'd be cowering in fear every time half the people over 40 here walked by. 

And they aren't

 

You're a silly person. 

[lemming]

Quote: lemming "If you're just going to go with costs, costs increased from 3rd edition to 4th."

 

 

Are you sure?  You may be mistaken.  But I could be wrong.  My 3rd Edition characters were easily ported into 4th Edition will absolutely NO reconfiguration.  They literally ported straight into the 4th Edition with almost no changes whatsoever.  No point increase/decrease.  The only time any point change was required was when we wanted a new, previously unavailable, power modifier that we had not thought of.  The only changes needed were to update how 4th Edition did Martial Arts.

I'm very sure there were cost increases from 3e to 4e. So yea, you're wrong.

Easily ported, but there were changes in costs.

 

Just off the top of my head:

Damage Resistance cost per point instead of just 1/2 Damage Resistance, or Full Damage Resistance.

(Cheaper for some chars, more expensive for others.)

I know there were enough changes that our group took some time to fully convert from 3e to 4e. We had already started using martial arts from Danger International (and Steve Maurer had written up a MA package similar to what 4e had.)

EC's, Multipowers, and some other stuff had a bunch of changes done.

 

I can port a character with little work from 1e to 6e, though if I want to port between editions, I prefer to do a rewrite anyway.

 

If you're so bent to keep with 4e, there is nothing stopping you from playing the 4e version.

[Enforcer84]

half damage resistance was 15

Full was 30 IIRC I'm old and misremembery

 

 

this was changed in 4th to 2 pts resistant defense for 3 points. so it was cheaper if you were 10pd and 10ed more expensive if you were 30/30 

 

But at any rate if you want to set your artificial cap at 250 you can. 

We rarely used 250 in our 4th edition games, preferring 400+ 

[Cassandra]

Deleted by me, after re-reading post.

 

I completely agree with you.

[Cassandra]

Striking Appearance could just be his distinctive appearance. You never see anyone else like him or emulating him.

 

Love, Hate, or Indiferent. It fits.

 

QM

 

That would be true of Power Girl, although her costume might not really fit.

[Enforcer84]

I dunno about Striking Appearance for Hitler; Distinctive features definitely, but I'm not sure he'd get a bonus based on his looks....though you were speaking of back in the day where he was an inspirational leader, so maybe. I could go either way  

[Greywind]

I'm not entirely sure her costume ever really did fit. She seemed to keep busting out in the middle of her chest.

[rjcurrie]

Wouldn't Hitler just have a high PRE and a very good Oratory Skill?

[Balabanto]

And a bucket ton of insane normal followers.

 

Maybe that goofy mustache is a power.

 

Good to have you back.

[assault]

I still find it flabbergasting that a 4Ed character that cost 250 points, now costs over 270 points for ONLY the characteristics.  And that is without buying any skills, perks, talents, power, et. al.

 

I'd love to see the character. Obviously very characteristic heavy. I'm guessing lots of Dex.

 

OCV and DCV can get very expensive very fast. 38 Dex gives 13 OCV/DCV in 4e, which costs 100 points in 6e. That's another 50 points over and beyond the 50 extra points all characters get. Nasty.

 

That's probably the worst case though. Str (and Mental CV?) won't usually mess things up that badly.

[megaplayboy]

Don't forget Reputation as an option for ol' Shickelgruber. Probably a couple levels generally, a couple more with German nationals, and a couple more with true believers. I don't think SA is appropriate. There's nothing particularly striking. The distinctiveness of his appearance is more due to his rep, imo.

[Balabanto]

Now that I'm home and not welcoming back my good friend Rod, I have a little time to take some umbrage with the original poster's retort.

 

We freely offered help, and pointed out not once, but multiple times that there were a number of easy ways to get to the result you wanted. What would the need for a rewrite be? Champions is a game of fifty pages of house rules. It always has been, and it always will be. As such, it's a simple matter of reviewing what you do allow and what you don't allow, followed by calculator use. Yes, there were people who lost some abilities in my game and/or gained new ones during edition conversions.

 

This is fine. It happens in the comics, too. I'm okay with it. While you are not okay with it, I want you to carefully consider how you sound when you use the word "perfect." Because 4th edition, too, had quite a few flaws.

 

1) 4th edition didn't take into account the problem of excessive use of the Aid power. While this is still a problem in later editions, in 4th it was howling, screaming, painfully difficult to deal with. The complexity of the new construction has steered people away from it.

 

2) Overpowered low-yield abilities with piled-on advantages. See above. While this is still a problem, it's not as prevalent.

 

3) Global Thermonuclear Follower. No. Really.

 

4) Transformation attack with no limitations and the suppress power. I've seen this in action. I've been on the receiving end of it. It is the worst thing ever. I'm glad it's gone.

 

5) Negative Characteristics. God, this was the worst thing ever. I'm glad that's gone, too. In 4th and 5th edition, it was far too easy to make sure that people never got an action again. 6th has mitigated this as well.

 

What difference does the number of points make as long as the system works?

[phoenix240]

Don't forget Reputation as an option for ol' Shickelgruber. Probably a couple levels generally, a couple more with German nationals, and a couple more with true believers. I don't think SA is appropriate. There's nothing particularly striking. The distinctiveness of his appearance is more due to his rep, imo.

 

That's the direction I'm leaning. In an alternate universe where Hitler never rose to power as a dictator and world figure but just lived and died as a carpenter that painted for pleasure no one would have looked twice at him and probably wouldn't even notice him if he happened to, for instance, be the background of a group photo.

 

But he did have a charisma, presence and good oratory skills and developed a reputation. Today, his face is virtually symbolic of evil. Hitler or a twin might very well have Striking Features in later era setting. Of course, its subjective like most "social" things are in rpgs. That's just how I see it.

[Scott Baker]

Life is too short. If 4th edition was perfect for you, go find a copy and forget about the current version(s). This should be fun, not torture.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Wouldn't Hitler just have a high PRE and a very good Oratory Skill?

 

I think it was his boob window that really got the attention.

[Sketchpad]

Welcome to the boards, Arakish. Instead of beating the dead horse, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me?

 

1. I understand you have an issue with the point discrepancy between Hero 4e and what followed. Did you, by any chance, look at Champions: New Millennium when it came out?

2. Beyond the point scale (that is the inflation between editions and the drastic changes between 5e and 6e), is there any reason why you can't adapt whatever flavor you may like from the later editions to 4e?

3. Do you play other RPGs? Have you looked at the book design of them as compared to any edition of Champions/Hero?

 

Please understand, there's no need for hostility from anyone on this. I know a few other users prefer 4e, which is fine. I kind of dug it as well, though I didn't mind some of the changes that were made when 5e came out. As with every game/system, though, Hero needs to adapt with the times and that's what, IMHO, 5e and 6e have been. Like others have said, if you're content with 4e, stick with it. RPGs aren't like operating systems, you don't have to upgrade to play the cool games.

[bubba smith]

I thought CNM WAS 4th editition

[Greywind]

More like 4.5

[bluesguy]

Hi - glad to see I was wrong about you 'trolling'.

 

Good luck with your efforts to get HD to generate 4e characters.

 

You have gotten some recommendations & even offers of help on how to take your 4e characters to 6e.  I know you think 4e was perfect but you just aren't going to get much support for 4e because it is defunct.  This is kind of like me saying "I think programming in Assembly, using Emacs on an VAX running Unix is the only way to develop code.  That was the perfect way to do things.  The people who developed these IDEs and high level languages really screwed up a perfect solution.  They should change what they have done and make it like the way I want it."

 

BTW:  How do you know that search.com doesn't direct your searches to whomever pays the most?  They are owned by CBS ;-)

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

I think going from complaining about 5th & 6th eds to Hitler's mustache may be one of the oddest derails for a conversation I've ever seen.

 

Not complaining, just an observation. Carry on.

[phoenix240]

I think it was his boob window that really got the attention.

 

Mein Eyes! Ze goggles dey do nothink!

[Lucius]

 

 

 

 

arakish, welcome! Glad to see you here. Hope you hang around.

 

I know others from time to time express the opinion that the 4th edition really was the zenith, and it's been downhill since. I disagree, but you should know you're not alone.

 

In fact, I have run into someone at GenCon who still played 1st edition Justice Inc and seemed UNAWARE there were any later editions - and was completely uninterested, because in his opinion the game was already perfect and any change could be only a decline from that perfection.

 

Now I ask, what is wrong with this picture?

 

If I cannot build a character, that was originally built on just 250 points, with the same amount of points in the Champions Complete system, then the new system has been FUBARed.

Well, here's what's wrong with this picture as I see it - it's like claiming that since I paid $300.00 a month in rent twenty years ago, I'm being cheated if I pay $500.00 now. My earning power has changed, the housing market has changed, the entire economy has changed. The question should be "Can I still do everything I did before?" not "Can I still do everything I did before, on the same arbitrary number of points?"

 

In 4th edition I once built a planet-cracking missile on 5 points. The fact I can't do that anymore does not strike me as necessarily a bad thing. (I wonder if I could still build an attack to wreck on earth-size planet on a starting superhero budget if I really wanted to....)

 

 

Additionally, the HERO Designer software is still missing a lot of stuff.  For example, I cannot build a Desolidification power with the +1 Advan of Usable Against Others.  The Champions Complete book "seems" to have a method for building such a power, but the table under Usable On Others is so damned confusing as to make absolutely no sense (page 119 CC).

The system now distinguishes between "I want to share the wonderful gift of flight with my friends" and "I want to launch these two supervictims, I mean, supervillains, into the air and fly them right into each other in a mutual move through followed by free fall."

 

If your power is meant to be both an attack that can take an enemy out of the fight temporarily by rendering them unable to attack, and a defense that can protect an ally from attacks, go with the attack option. You can always protect your friend by "attacking" them with the Desolid power.

 

 

Another example: The Danger Sense I bought with this character only cost 17 points in the 4th Edition.  To emulate the same ability in CC, it costs a whoping 37 points!  FUBAR!

Saying "the costs are wrong because they changed" isn't much of an argument. Now, saying "the costs are wrong because they are out of line with the power's utility" might be a legitimate complaint. I admit, it's hard to tell which you're saying here.

 

 

AND what the 7734 happened to Comliness?  Is this supposed to be combined with Presence?  FUBAR!  There is a huge difference between Presence and Comliness.  Just look at Hitler for an example.  Great Presence but he was fugly.

Well, mentioning Hitler in the first post is one way to avoid getting derailed later by mentioning Hitler....

 

Comeliness was replaced by Striking Appearance, so you can still be as pretty as you want to be.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The probability of a palindromedary being mentioned in a thread Lucius Alexander is posting in, starts at near certainty and goes up

[lemming]

In 4th edition I once built a planet-cracking missile on 5 points. The fact I can't do that anymore does not strike me as necessarily a bad thing. (I wonder if I could still build an attack to wreck on earth-size planet on a starting superhero budget if I really wanted to....)

Yes.

 

And the rest of the post was nicely put.

[arakish]

Welcome to the boards, Arakish. Instead of beating the dead horse, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me?

 

1. I understand you have an issue with the point discrepancy between Hero 4e and what followed. Did you, by any chance, look at Champions: New Millennium when it came out?

2. Beyond the point scale (that is the inflation between editions and the drastic changes between 5e and 6e), is there any reason why you can't adapt whatever flavor you may like from the later editions to 4e?

3. Do you play other RPGs? Have you looked at the book design of them as compared to any edition of Champions/Hero?

 

Please understand, there's no need for hostility from anyone on this. I know a few other users prefer 4e, which is fine. I kind of dug it as well, though I didn't mind some of the changes that were made when 5e came out. As with every game/system, though, Hero needs to adapt with the times and that's what, IMHO, 5e and 6e have been. Like others have said, if you're content with 4e, stick with it. RPGs aren't like operating systems, you don't have to upgrade to play the cool games.

 

1) No.  I never knew there was such a thing as Champions New Millennia.

2) Not really.  I finally got a 4e char into 6e, but I had to give up some things.  Too much to try and detail.

3) LOTS!  So many I can't name them all.  We have even taken Star Fleet Battles, normally a board game and converted into a RPG which uses SFB for the battles.

 

As mentioned, I attached the char named Blindman.  However, some of his characteristics are not as high as they were in 4e.  His Martial Arts also slightly changed since 6e uses different names, etc.  Please note that the attached file does NOT include the images.  I know, I could have zipped it, but the most important part is the characteristics, talents, skills, powers, etc.

 

However, I have a new question, but I will post it in a new thread.

 

rmfr

Blindman.HTML