Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[bigdamnhero]

But then I also hated the idea of Peter being in high school, considering he graduated back in ASM # 28. All those years showing him as a student, he was a College student, not High School. So what do I know?

True, but that was because the early comics approximated real time, ie 12 issues was mostly a year. So Peter was Spider-Man for roughly his last two years of High School - we just didn't get as many issues out of it as we did his 4 years in college.

 

That said, personally I find High School Superheroes to be incredibly boring, so I would've preferred it if they hadn't gone back to that well again.

[Lord Liaden]

I still don't get Marvel's reasoning on this. Johanssen is the top grossing female actress in the world playing a hugely popular character, and a Black Widow spy movie wouldn't even need the huge CGI budget of most Marvel movies. It should've been a license to print money. [shakes head] What a missed opportunity.

 

At one time I heard a Black Widow script was in development, but the last mention of it must be, geez, at least a year ago. SJ is on record as being game for it.

 

From everything I've heard out of MCU fans over the years, a stand-alone Black Widow movie is probably the most-requested new Marvel property after a Hulk stand-alone. I understand there are legal reasons preventing the latter, but I have yet to hear a rationale out of Marvel Studios for not doing the former. MCU Natasha Romanov has been given suggestions of such a deep, complex, tragic back story, it can't be that hard to mine for ideas.

[Bazza]

The reason i think a Black Widow film is not in development is, not because of any audience demand, but because such a film doesn't fit in with the existing plan of the MCU. Next year and year after Marvel Studios is upping production from 2 films to produce 3 films, so resources for a Black Widow film are stretched thin.  

 

That said, the Phase 3 plan has been extended twice already, 1) to accommodate Spider-man and 2) an Ant-Man sequel. 

 

Any Black Widow film would be locking at 2019 at the earliest. 

[bigdamnhero]

The reason i think a Black Widow film is not in development is, not because of any audience demand, but because such a film doesn't fit in with the existing plan of the MCU. Next year and year after Marvel Studios is upping production from 2 films to produce 3 films, so resources for a Black Widow film are stretched thin. 

That seems to be basically the excuse they've been giving - there's just no room in the schedule. Which is kind of lame coming from, y'know, the guys who make the schedule. I for one would've been fine with pushing, say, Ant-Man back 6 months to accommodate.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm afraid the "room in the schedule" excuse doesn't hold much water for me either. They made room in the schedule to produce a new Spider-Man movie. They were going to make an Inhumans movie, which is now indefinitely off the schedule. If they wanted Black Widow, they would have done Black Widow. I can only assume someone with pull at Marvel Studios doesn't want Black Widow.

[zslane]

Let's say there is a tentative slot in the phase 3 or 4 slate for a Black Widow film. But then the deal for Spider-Man goes through with Sony and you need to bump something. And then Ant-Man does well enough financially that executives start having visions of $$$ from a sequel dancing in their heads and want to bump something else. I can see how Black Widow ends up drawing the short straw on this, disappointing though it may be.

 

SJ may also have other projects in the works that make it difficult to schedule her for another MCU film (in addition to the ones she's already scheduled for) any time soon. Like, there could be a three-month window where she's available in 2017, but Marvel won't be ready by then. And then maybe her next slot of availability doesn't line up with Marvel's development schedule until 2019 or 2020. This stuff isn't easy to make happen given all the people and resources that have to be marshalled.

 

Let's also consider that Marvel may have decided, however wrongly, that audiences don't have that much interest in an MCU spy movie given the generally lackluster response to Marvel's Most Wanted.

 

There are a lot of factors being considered to put any MCU film into production: practical, financial, logistical, strategic, corporate, and personal. Without knowing all the details behind the decisions, they can seem awfully arbitrary, but I am confident they aren't, and that it would probably make sense if we knew all the details.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Frankly, Marvel has proven that they can take any character and make a successful, interesting film out of it.  I mean, Ant Man?  Guardians of the Galaxy?  But it works, if you have the right combo of writing, directing, and casting.  The popularity of the character is pretty irrelevant, and I think Black Widow has at least some base popularity anyway.

[zslane]

Yeah, it's definitely not because they (or anyone) thinks Black Widow isn't worthy of a film. Though with the current Avengers line-up walking into the proverbial sunset, her time as an A-list MCU character has probably passed. But if the popularity of characters like Peggy Carter, Bobby Morse, and Jessica Jones are anything to go by, Marvel should certainly realize there is a market for something like a Black Widow movie.

 

Then again, the feminist conspiracy chasers will tell you that Marvel doesn't really want to make superhero movies for female title characters at all, and that Captain Marvel is just a rare case of the "right thing" happening despite all the misogynistic forces marshalled against that kind of project in Hollywood. Could they be right?

[Old Man]

To be honest, I'm astonished that Captain Marvel is getting made. The perception in Holkywood is that female leads don't sell tickets. It quickly becomes self fulfilling. My worry is that instead of pushing ahead with a known popular female character in BW, they're trying to launch an entirely new female character--and if it's the first Marvel film to really tank, they'll blame it on the female lead phenomenon.

[bigdamnhero]

I'm afraid the "room in the schedule" excuse doesn't hold much water for me either. They made room in the schedule to produce a new Spider-Man movie.

Well, that was Sony's decision. It's nice that Marvel & Sony are on speaking terms these days, but I don't think we can pin that call on Feige & Co. I agree with the rest of your post tho.

 

SJ may also have other projects in the works that make it difficult to schedule her for another MCU film (in addition to the ones she's already scheduled for) any time soon. Like, there could be a three-month window where she's available in 2017, but Marvel won't be ready by then. And then maybe her next slot of availability doesn't line up with Marvel's development schedule until 2019 or 2020. This stuff isn't easy to make happen given all the people and resources that have to be marshalled.

If that were true, they'd be playing the "we couldn't make it work with everyone's schedule" card rather than dancing around the "we'd love to but we can't because [unspecified reasons]" card.

 

YThen again, the feminist conspiracy chasers will tell you that Marvel doesn't really want to make superhero movies for female title characters at all, and that Captain Marvel is just a rare case of the "right thing" happening despite all the misogynistic forces marshalled against that kind of project in Hollywood. Could they be right?

It's hardly conspiracy mongering to point out the well-documented fact that Hollywood in general is extremely reluctant to greenlight action movies with female leads, and that Marvel has unfortunately been following that trend. Yeah Captain Marvel is getting made, but only after 20 movies starring dudes...

[Lord Liaden]

Well, that was Sony's decision. It's nice that Marvel & Sony are on speaking terms these days, but I don't think we can pin that call on Feige & Co. I agree with the rest of your post tho.

 

 

Thank you for saying so.   But I find it hard to believe Sony just called up Kevin Feige one day and said, "Hey, how would you like us to hand you creative control over a new Spider-Man movie?" I'm pretty sure Feige did quite a bit of back-room lobbying and negotiating to make that happen.

[zslane]

If that were true, they'd be playing the "we couldn't make it work with everyone's schedule" card rather than dancing around the "we'd love to but we can't because [unspecified reasons]" card.

I confess I am not up on all the "cards" Marvel has played so far in an attempt to explain away the absence of a Black Widow film initiative. Can anyone offers specifics? It is hard to read between the lines of Marvel's spin doctors if I/we don't have the relevant quotes from Feige and Co. to dissect.

[Greywind]

http://moviepilot.com/p/scarlett-johansson-captain-america/3906164

[bigdamnhero]

But I find it hard to believe Sony just called up Kevin Feige one day and said, "Hey, how would you like us to hand you creative control over a new Spider-Man movie?" I'm pretty sure Feige did quite a bit of back-room lobbying and negotiating to make that happen.

Oh yeah, I'm sure the back room discussions there were hot & heavy for several years, and it's not like Marvel was in any way reluctant to do a Spidey movie. I'm just pointing out that as I understand it Sony still retains a good deal of creative, distribution decisions, etc, so there may have been an element of of "If we're going to do this, we have to do it soon" involved. Plus let's be honest, even the lowest-grossing Spidey movie is a guaranteed money-maker, so from a business standpoint they'd be fools not to run with it.

 

I confess I am not up on all the "cards" Marvel has played so far in an attempt to explain away the absence of a Black Widow film initiative. Can anyone offers specifics? It is hard to read between the lines of Marvel's spin doctors if I/we don't have the relevant quotes from Feige and Co. to dissect.

I can't find a bunch of specific quotes, since the Intertubes are all full of the latest news that Greywind posted. Basically ever since Iron Man 2 whenever Feige has been asked about it he gushes about how great Johannsen is and how awesome a BW solo movie would be and how much he'd reeeeealy love to see it...but they just can't make it work for reasons that are never explained. Seriously he sounds like a guy saying "I'd love to do it but the boss won't let me," which is an odd thing to hear coming from the %$#@*%!! Studio President. I just feel like if it was as simple as a scheduling problem, they would've said so instead of dancing around it like that.

 

http://moviepilot.com/p/scarlett-johansson-captain-america/3906164

Yay! Tho I'll be more excited when we actually get dates attached...

[Doc Shadow]

Might have had something to do with Perlmutter. As I understand it until Feige managed to unthrone him, he held the purse-strings and thus the power.

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/09/marvel-studios-ike-perlmutter-kevin-feige

[Bazza]

‘Doctor Strange’ Sneak Peek Reveals New Concept Art, New Villain Details & More

[bigdamnhero]

Saw the Dr. Strange trailer at the theater yesterday. Even my wife, who burned out on superhero movies after the first Avengers movie, thought it looked pretty cool. Of course she's an self-described Cumberbabe, so that may be a factor....

[Tjack]

Oh yeah, I'm sure the back room discussions there were hot & heavy for several years, and it's not like Marvel was in any way reluctant to do a Spidey movie. I'm just pointing out that as I understand it Sony still retains a good deal of creative, distribution decisions, etc, so there may have been an element of of "If we're going to do this, we have to do it soon" involved. Plus let's be honest, even the lowest-grossing Spidey movie is a guaranteed money-maker, so from a business standpoint they'd be fools not to run with it.

 

 

I can't find a bunch of specific quotes, since the Intertubes are all full of the latest news that Greywind posted. Basically ever since Iron Man 2 whenever Feige has been asked about it he gushes about how great Johannsen is and how awesome a BW solo movie would be and how much he'd reeeeealy love to see it...but they just can't make it work for reasons that are never explained. Seriously he sounds like a guy saying "I'd love to do it but the boss won't let me," which is an odd thing to hear coming from the %$#@*%!! Studio President. I just feel like if it was as simple as a scheduling problem, they would've said so instead of dancing around it like that.

 

 

Yay! Tho I'll be more excited when we actually get dates attached...

 

 

The truth about the Black Widow movie probably goes something like this... Marvel can commit it's resources at any time to one of two projects the first would be something that their Marketing Research Dept. says will make them a boatload of money or a film that people say they want but is of a type that usually fails at the box office.

The films Salt, Hanna, Lucy and not to mention Ghostbusters all were failures as far as the studios were concerned. I personally love Action Spy movies in general(I even liked Man from UNCLE) and have a crush on Scarlett Johansson that makes me see even the crappy Woody Allen ones she's in so I would without doubt go to a Black Widow movie, but I don't think they're going to make it just for me.

Good intentioned people will sign petitions and demonstrate for all kinds of things, but when it comes to putting their money or votes where their mouth is... It can get awfully lonely out there.

Robert Heinlein once wrote "When ever you ask yourself "why do they do something" the answer is always money." Some may call that statement harsh, but I've always found it to be accurate and the best way to deal with any situation is with the truth.

Movie companies are in business to make money and have the general moral fiber of a Sewer Rat and if movies with Female Action or Multi-Cultural leads made money for them they would paint Tom Cruise and tell the the Hollywood press he was a African/Chinese/Lesbian all along.

The only thing that'll get BW or a Capt.Marvel movie made is if they think the fans will see any Marvel movie no matter what and if it does well enough then they might take a chance on others, but until then.

If they get done you can bet that they'll have a strong male Co-Star to make the big shots feel better.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, Marvel Studios has publicly committed to making a Captain Marvel movie. They announced the casting of the actor who will play her, who is a likely up-and-comer, but doesn't have remotely the name recognition that SJ does. That Captain Marvel has a following among comic readers, but is practically unknown to the wider movie-going audience, whereas Black Widow is now well-known to that audience.

 

Purely on the profit-risk axes, I just don't see how those facts square up.

[Bazza]

What does a Black Widow film add story wise, or universe wise to the MCU? Ad far as I can see, it is mostly a "fill in the blanks" kind of thing. Yes Marvel could make it work, and indeed make a terrific film out of it, but it is a diversion to the existing plan for Phase Three -- about leading to Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet. A Black Widow film is another spy film, and Marvel has already done that genre with The Winter Soldier (political thriller) thus a Black Widow film would be covering old ground in a new packaging.

 

On the other hand, Captain Marvel is something entirely new, adds new story elements, and expands the cosmic area (possibly) and also importantly has continuity with the current Thanos storyline. This is basically why Marvel is committed to Captain Marvel and not Black Widow. It is not a scheduling issue as others here have commented, but about the plan for Phase Three -- the overarching storyline involving Thanos and the Infinity Stones. 

 

As said, Marvel could make a Black Widow film -- there is certain demand for one -- however Marvel would need to fit it into the larger Phase Three story-arc. There are many Russian characters and ideas can draw from if they chose to make it and wish to tie it to Phase Three -- we know that. However, each film is a chapter in a much larger novel, and to me a Black Widow film seems like a chapter to be skipped -- i.e. it is a stand alone film, not part of current continuity. That is why, more than anything a Black Widow film is not going forward.

 

Summary: it is not a scheduling issue, but how a Black Widow film fits into Phase Three. Going over Black Widow's history involving the incident in Budapest is history which implies that it is a stand-alone film, and not part of the current Phase Three story-arc leading to the heroes clash against Thanos. IT is not about fan demand for a Black Widow film, but a film that is not part of current continuity more likely than not would cause confusion to the general film goer who is a much bigger audience than comic book fandom. But a Black Widow film on Netflix -- sure that would work. 

[bigdamnhero]

What does a Black Widow film add story wise, or universe wise to the MCU?

...

Summary: it is not a scheduling issue, but how a Black Widow film fits into Phase Three. Going over Black Widow's history involving the incident in Budapest is history which implies that it is a stand-alone film, and not part of the current Phase Three story-arc leading to the heroes clash against Thanos. IT is not about fan demand for a Black Widow film, but a film that is not part of current continuity more likely than not would cause confusion to the general film goer who is a much bigger audience than comic book fandom. But a Black Widow film on Netflix -- sure that would work. 

That actually does make sense given Marvel's focus.

[Starlord]

Also, as my wife pointed out, BW has already had significant screen time and story arcs over the course of 5 movies.  I sorta feel like she's already had her own movie.

[Starlord]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Peter Dinklage will replace Paul Rudd and Sebastian Stan as Ant-Man and Winter Soldier in the next Avengers movie, respectively.

 

 

[Bazza]

Peter Dinklage would make a good Ant-Man.

[Nolgroth]

Peter Dinklage would make a good Ant-Man.

 

He's already halfway there so why not?