Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Christopher R Taylor]

He knew that Hydra was behind the death of Stark's parents in Winter Soldier, after confronting cyber-Zola. In Civil War, when Tony asks "Did you know?" he says, "I didn't know it was him."

 

That makes even less sense.

1) What possible information did Captain America have access to and time to examine about Iron Man's parents which Iron Man himself would not have gotten access to?

2) Why would keeping the fact that Hydra killed his parents possibly give Iron Man any "peace" as he gives as an excuse?

 

SW had to act reflexively to save Cap, and it didn't work out.

 

By throwing the guy she already had the explosion under control with at the only skyscraper in Lagos?  That was her only option?

[Old Man]

My interpretation is that she threw him "up" and there happened to be a skyscraper there. I also don't think she had the explosion fully under control; it seems like the sort of thing she wouldn't have tried before.

[Doc Shadow]

I believe that she was trying to throw him high enough that he would explode harmlessly. Obviously she couldn't contain the explosion long enough to clear the building that they were all near.

[Starlord]

That makes even less sense.

1) What possible information did Captain America have access to and time to examine about Iron Man's parents which Iron Man himself would not have gotten access to?

2) Why would keeping the fact that Hydra killed his parents possibly give Iron Man any "peace" as he gives as an excuse?

 

By throwing the guy she already had the explosion under control with at the only skyscraper in Lagos?  That was her only option?

 

- Only Cap and BW saw the information from Arnim Zola in the bunker.

- My interpretation was she couldn't hold the explosion so she forced it up into the air and it exploded when she couldn't hold it anymore.  Still, it was clear she was trying to help.  I also agree with your take that "how would the UN have handled things differently".  Although, the entire Ultron situation was, in fact, Tony Stark's (and Banner somewhat) fault.  Technically, he is partly responsible for any death's Ultron caused.

[Pattern Ghost]

That makes even less sense.

1) What possible information did Captain America have access to and time to examine about Iron Man's parents which Iron Man himself would not have gotten access to?

2) Why would keeping the fact that Hydra killed his parents possibly give Iron Man any "peace" as he gives as an excuse?

 

By throwing the guy she already had the explosion under control with at the only skyscraper in Lagos?  That was her only option?

 

1) He had access to a gloating (AI) Arnim Zola, which IIRC blew up shortly after. Tony wasn't there.

2) Tony was already becoming unhinged at that point. Maybe Steve didn't want to crack the egg any further. In reality: They were probably looking for a "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" rationale that didn't make Steve look too bad, but that Tony could still take exception to.

[zslane]

To be fair, what kind of government have millennials ever known?

A government so multi-faceted and complex that it defies such simplistic abstractions.

 

I am from the generation that sits awkwardly between the baby boomers and gen X, and I've watched our culture slowly transform into one in which political awareness and understanding has become reduced to only that which can be conveyed by a sound bite or a Tweet. Clearly it is easier to just yell "Fire!" than it is to educate people how to help keep the building from burning to the ground around them.

[Christopher R Taylor]

1) Really?  You figure in the 30 seconds they talked he learned who killed Tony's parents?  We saw their entire conversation.

2) Telling him "you know how you always wondered how your dad died?  It was Hydra" was going to shatter his sanity?  Not buying it.

[Pattern Ghost]

1) Really?  You figure in the 30 seconds they talked he learned who killed Tony's parents?  We saw their entire conversation.

2) Telling him "you know how you always wondered how your dad died?  It was Hydra" was going to shatter his sanity?  Not buying it.

 

1) I don't need to figure, because I paid attention. They showed the newspaper clipping about the "accident" on screen in the movie.

2) I don't care if you buy my random speculation. The story reason was clear:  They needed a reason for the two to fight. I didn't say it was a good reason, but there you have it. Comics have sinned far worse in this department, so either you accept it as a genre trope and move on or you argue about it on the internet.

[Old Man]

I buy it pretty easily. In fact it makes perfect sense. Who really likes bringing up that kind of news with anyone? People avoid giving bad news all the time. If there was no immediate need to tell Tony about Hydra, it's easily the kind of thing that would get put off, especially if he's already struggling with a difficult breakup and the aftermath of Sokovia.

[Lord Liaden]

Having been through a roughly comparable situation with friends of mine, I can assure you there's a profound emotional difference between believing someone close to you died in an accident which was no one's fault, and finding out they were deliberately and brutally murdered. Particularly when in Tony's case he believed the former most of his life.

 

Nonetheless it probably was a mistake for Cap not to tell Tony as soon as he learned of Hydra's murder of the Starks. Cap acknowledged this at the end of CW, admitting he was really protecting himself rather than Tony. (As a combat soldier Cap probably had to break similar news more often than he wants to remember.) I consider that mistake both a humanizing flaw in Cap's character, and to his credit for admitting it and taking responsibility.

[bigdamnhero]

Nonetheless it probably was a mistake for Cap not to tell Tony as soon as he learned of Hydra's murder of the Starks. Cap acknowledged this at the end of CW, admitting he was really protecting himself rather than Tony. (As a combat soldier Cap probably had to break similar news more often than he wants to remember.) I consider that mistake both a humanizing flaw in Cap's character, and to his credit for admitting it and taking responsibility.

Exactly. Of course it was a mistake, but it was a very believable and very human mistake IMO.

[Pattern Ghost]

Almost like they planned it that way.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Nah, they planned it as a bomb to set Tony off against both Cap and Bucky in a berserk irrational rage.  The writers weren't super clever, they had a goal in mind: a fight between Iron Man and Captain America.

 

But unlike in the comics where there's some big misunderstanding and they settle up and are okay in the end, they had to make Tony go insane and hate Steve.  The Black Panther arc was more like the comics, or Hawkeye and Black Widow "we're still friends, right?"

 

 

There was one aspect of the film that really intrigued me, though.  Twice, Black Panthers ring interacts with Bucky's arm.  Its likely to me that both have vibranium in them, which suggests the plot or part of the plot for the Black Panther film.  You have Ulysses Klaw already set up, and he knew where the stuff came from, so probably there's a leak -- likely a guy that is part of the royal house or in power in Wakanda.  How did that vibranium get out of the country to the Soviets so long ago?  That seems like its probably a major part of the movie's plot at least.

[Pattern Ghost]

Nah, they planned it as a bomb to set Tony off against both Cap and Bucky in a berserk irrational rage.

 

That's what I just said. The Tony side of it is just a continuation of the MCU portraying him as bat guano insane. No normal person should have reacted like he did, and certainly not a hero vs. a team mate. But they damned well set up Steve not telling Tony for a reason that was both flawed on Steve's part, yet still casting his character in a good light.

 

 

 

The writers weren't super clever, they had a goal in mind: a fight between Iron Man and Captain America.

 

No kidding! I've been saying that. The goal was to get them to fight. Duh. It's not called Civil Knitting Circle.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm sorry, I realize it's just my opinion, but I have a lot of trouble characterizing Tony Stark's reaction to seeing his parents brutally murdered before his eyes, with the guy who did it standing right in front of him, being protected by the man who knew the truth about his parents and kept it from him, as being "batshit insane." IMHO almost anyone in that situation would have reacted that way.

 

I see a clear arc in the development of Tony's character and views to where he is now, which is logical and understandable, as I see a clear arc in Steve's. No question, this incarnation of Tony Stark has major character flaws, which have been with him in one form or another from his first film -- massive ego, self-centered world view, need to control his environment, and more recently a savior complex -- but he's come a long way from where he started. He's fallen more than once, but picked himself back up, which to me is far more heroic than being some paragon of virtue and self-confidence. He genuinely wants to do good, help people, and protect his friends, and is willing to make major sacrifices to do so. From his perspective he's bent over backwards trying to bring Steve Rogers on what he considers the right side, only to keep being rebuffed. His biggest problem is he keeps making decisions for others "for their own good," which torpedoes his efforts.

 

I consider this Tony Stark a hero. Just a flawed one. Which makes for good drama IMHO, YMMV etc.

[Bazza]

Duh. It's not called Civil Knitting Circle.

 

This film has so much promise! Hope Marvel makes it. 

 

( )

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm sorry, I realize it's just my opinion, but I have a lot of trouble characterizing Tony Stark's reaction to seeing his parents brutally murdered before his eyes, with the guy who did it standing right in front of him, being protected by the man who knew the truth about his parents and kept it from him, as being "batshit insane." IMHO almost anyone in that situation would have reacted that way.

 

Tony's been doing crazy crap since the battle for NY. Not that he's technically insane, per se, that was a bit of hyperbole, plus I just like the phrase. But he's been shown having extreme difficulty dealing with stress since post-Avengers 1. Scarlet Witch's little push in Avengers 2 didn't help.

 

I'll have to disagree that anyone would try to kill one of their best friends in that situation. Someone who's emotionally unstable, yes. An emotionally stable genius would be upset, but realize that the Bucky was brainwashed and not responsible for his actions. More like Cisco's response to meeting Picard, who killed his wife while under control of the Borg, in the first episode of DS9. No blood spilled in that scene, just a lot of emotional turmoil.

[Starlord]

5 episodes into Luke Cage.  It started off slow for me.  Although, the last two episodes have picked up pace and been very good.  Best moment so far is, of course: 

Looking at reflection in full "Power Man" regalia, "You look like a damn fool!"

 

[Nolgroth]

Luke Cage has been pretty good so far. It seems to have both embraced its Blacksploitation roots and then turned them on their head.

 

I like Cottonmouth as a bad guy. He has nuance. Don't like the Beastie Boys reject villain. Kind of hoping he has an unfortunate encounter with an industrial cheese grater.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'll have to disagree that anyone would try to kill one of their best friends in that situation. Someone who's emotionally unstable, yes. An emotionally stable genius would be upset, but realize that the Bucky was brainwashed and not responsible for his actions. More like Cisco's response to meeting Picard, who killed his wife while under control of the Borg, in the first episode of DS9. No blood spilled in that scene, just a lot of emotional turmoil.

I think "anyone would react" in a strongly negative way is pretty reasonable. But that's a genre trope element. In Trek (certainly TNG onwards), violence is a last resort. Diplomacy, discipline and discussion is the starting point for problem resolution - especially for trained officers of the Federation interacting in that capacity.

 

In Superhero comics, problems are solved with punches and energy blasts. Add to that, Tony has never been great with self-discipline and impulse control, and top it off with the stress of recent events and, at least within Superhero Genre Action Movie reality (hey, there's that Cinematic Reality we keep talking about in Hero System), his reaction is at least plausible. Now, if he spends the next half dozen movies assembling a team of villains to storm Avengers Tower and take vengeance on Cap, that's problematic. But an initial emotional reaction? That's well within the bounds of the genre tropes.

[Ranxerox]

 

No kidding! I've been saying that. The goal was to get them to fight. Duh. It's not called Civil Knitting Circle.

 

 

This film has so much promise! Hope Marvel makes it. 

 

( )

 

Yes!  Finally a chance to bring Nancy Whitehead to the big screen!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like Luke Cage quite a bit so far, and enjoyed the first episode more than Daredevil.  It had several scenes which felt more like filler to me than story (the sex scene, the 15 minutes flirting with a woman at the bar and ignoring all the other customers, the scene of Cottonmouth playing jazz on the keyboard as women lounged around) which I hope they don't do too much more of in the future, but the last scene made it all work.

 

Part of the reason I don't like Daredevil as much as I could is they make him too human and ordinary for my tastes.  Yes, he gets tired fighting, but he seems to get too completely exhausted fighting.  Every single battle with guys is a horrendous exertion of time and energy.  He hits guys so hard their head makes a dent in the wall, and they get back up and need to be hit again, three, four times.  While this has a good "Champions fight" feel to it with all those recoveries, they need to embrace the mook rule and have the non essential bad guys stay down when they go down.

 

Luke Cage does not have this feel.  He's like freight train, and when he hits a guy, they just stay down.  His drawbacks and limitations are very different: personality conflicts, personal issues, being a fugitive from jail, etc.

[Pattern Ghost]

In Superhero comics, problems are solved with punches and energy blasts. Add to that, Tony has never been great with self-discipline and impulse control, and top it off with the stress of recent events and, at least within Superhero Genre Action Movie reality (hey, there's that Cinematic Reality we keep talking about in Hero System), his reaction is at least plausible. Now, if he spends the next half dozen movies assembling a team of villains to storm Avengers Tower and take vengeance on Cap, that's problematic. But an initial emotional reaction? That's well within the bounds of the genre tropes.

 

Which is what I said: Not anyone would react the same way. Tony, who has been shown to a) be emotionally unstable and b>  to be under growing levels of stress, would. Because they've developed his character that way. It's within genre tropes, sure. I was only responding to the assertion that anyone would react the same way.

[bigdamnhero]

Tony's been doing crazy crap since the battle for NY. Not that he's technically insane, per se, that was a bit of hyperbole, plus I just like the phrase. But he's been shown having extreme difficulty dealing with stress since post-Avengers 1. Scarlet Witch's little push in Avengers 2 didn't help.

Sure. It's hardly that the pampered rich boy who had a "long list of character defects" and poor stress management habits before all this shit started should have trouble dealing with the aftermath of a major war where he not only saw death & destruction on a scale he'd never encountered before, but nearly died himself from riding a freakin nuke into another dimension? And then had his brain messed with and saw his own creation trash Sarkovia and nearly wipe out humanity? And the only woman he's ever had a real relationship with just walked out on him? And then he learns his parents didn't die in an accident but were murdered by a man standing right in front of him, and BTW one of his few actual friends (Cap) knew this and didn't tell him? Seriously, most professional soldiers who have trained their whole lives for combat would be quivering pieces of PTSD after all that, and as Cap pointed out the first time they met, Stark's no solder.

 

Now if if you don't like that the writers have dumped all this crap on Tony, ok. But I don't think we can say they haven't made his reaction to it believable.

 

And as others have pointed out in the superhero genre "Reacting Badly" almost always translates to "Hitting Someone." Seriously, how can we criticize the MCU for not following genre tropes, and then turn around and criticize them for having this disagreement end in a fight between friends? It doesn't get more comic book than that.

 

I'm also not sure Tony was trying to "kill" Cap. Beat the shit out of both of them? Absolutely. Kill Bucky? Maaaaaybe. But I don't think Tony would've killed Cap even if he'd won. Sure he wasn't exactly pulling punches, but he's fighting Captain Freakin' America - no need for kid gloves there.

 

Personally I think Stark's character arc has been one of the best things about the MCU thus far. He's grown from the guy telling Congress to pound sand in IM2, to realizing that maybe he doesn't in fact know everything. He's also made some really bad calls, and frankly I think he secretly is ready to let someone else take that responsibility for awhile. But at the same time, he's still who he is so even when he's trying to do the right thing he still has trouble getting past his own ego.

 

All that said, I'm hopeful that Marvel intends CW to be the low point, and that future movies will be about them working their way back out of the abyss, regaining both the public's trust and each others' trust. I really enjoyed CW: but one movie was enough and I'm ready for them to go back to fighting villains.

[zslane]

His biggest problem is he keeps making decisions for others "for their own good," which torpedoes his efforts.

First let me say that I completely agree with LL's assessment of MCU Tony Stark.

 

I want to further respond to the particular observation that I quoted above. It is a disease in Hollywood to have protagonists make decisions for (and keep secrets from) others "to protect them". This is such a profoundly flawed sentiment in real life that it kind of shocks me that writers continue to use this plot contrivance with an almost obsessive regularity in their fictive worlds.

 

And this is not just a problem in movies. It is a staple of television drama as well. The thing is, it doesn't really work. Any viewer past the age of a tween understands, on some level, how disrespectful and narcissistic that attitude is, and yet Hollywood insists on making characters, presumably good and heroic characters, do this again and again as if it makes any kind of sense.

 

I will say that I think it works to an extent for Tony Stark precisely because he is arrogant and narcissistic to enough of a degree to really believe he is protecting the world and that he knows the best way to do that. But as a general rule, this attitude simply does not fit well when worn by your average protagonist.

 

This is really just another anti-Hollywood rant, not an anti-MCU rant or an anti-Tony Stark characterization rant.