Greywind Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 In 616 Cap never really disappeared, tho. Jeffrey Mace took over as Cap in the Invaders. There was another that took over in the 50's and the serum he took made him a little bonkers. His "Bucky" became Nomad. Then you have Steve Rogers again taking up when the Avengers found him as an ice cube. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said: I thought Hogun got about as much of a heroic send-off as the character merited Agreed. Might have been better if the other two were fighting along side him, last three men standing kind of thing. But the big problem was the lack of reaction from Thor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said: So Cap was potentially active for 3 years or so, in a period 70+ years ago. Both the comics and the movies are asking for some serious suspension of disbelief that the vast majority of the population remembers him and is in awe of him as a hero, aren't they? I think if we reject this in the movies, it is equally suspect in the comics. Audie Murphy served for three years during wartime. People still remember him, though perhaps not to the level of adulation shown to Cap in the comics and movies. However, the movie didn't really portray a lengthy term of service. Just some time as a mascot, maybe a few months, then basically the one mission leading to his Popsicle-hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 I don't think Audie Murphy is the right analogy to Cap for his enduring impact on the public consciousness, considering how he was played up as a symbol, and his (apparent) self-sacrifice. Probably closer to Terry Fox, who demonstrates how a short life can become timeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted March 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 To me Captain America is Maj Gen Smedley Butler who foiled the Business Plot (fascist takeover of America in early 1930s). So heroes can be forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Having been to the Smithsonian, there are only a few things in history given an entire room and a separate cinema room as a display. Either way, my particular argument had to do with how his teammates felt about him, not how the gen pop. should feel about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 By the time of Civil War, his teammates knew him better than anyone. Their respect and loyalty didn't have to depend on reputation. And from the comics version, "When Cap says it you do it/believe it" is a big part of the character. Armory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Quote So Cap was potentially active for 3 years or so, in a period 70+ years ago. Both the comics and the movies are asking for some serious suspension of disbelief that the vast majority of the population remembers him and is in awe of him as a hero, aren't they? I think if we reject this in the movies, it is equally suspect in the comics. Again, the problem isn't what they say about how long he is stated to have been active, but rather how long the film gave the impression that he was active. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 The argument is logical and has validity; but I was just happy to see "the real Captain America" finally appear on screen, so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on that issue. It's far from the biggest pill a movie ever asked me to swallow. Pattern Ghost and Hugh Neilson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 30 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: The argument is logical and has validity; but I was just happy to see "the real Captain America" finally appear on screen, so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on that issue. It's far from the biggest pill a movie ever asked me to swallow. I totally agree with this... as I could watch "On your left..." over and over again... and have. My main question is "what is the pill we are being asked to swallow?" What is the Russo bros' intent here, as they are too smart to just handwave it. It is hard to separate what is being shown on screen from what strongly-invested viewers are seeing on the screen. I'm ok with it, but it is a question I have. Is the perception of Captain America as "Cap!" purposefully unclear... is it just more realistic "some people like him, some don't, some really have no idea who he is?"... or are we supposed to bring our comic book attitudes of "Cap! he's perfect, never wrong, always on the side of right, people who don't listen to him are villains!" to bear? Is the movie expecting us to bring our preconceived notions, or not (especially since most movie watchers will not have those notions). I find artistic intent really interesting, and wondering whether they expected a certain "reading" of events from the fans, or were just happy to allow for different interpretations, staying true to their internal vision of the movie Cap, and not really caring what any particular audience brings to it. Both of those are important artistic decisions in how character and content are framed for an audience. Lord Liaden, Hugh Neilson and drunkonduty 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Quote The argument is logical and has validity; but I was just happy to see "the real Captain America" finally appear on screen, so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on that issue. It's far from the biggest pill a movie ever asked me to swallow. Yeah, its more just disappointment at a lost opportunity. In my opinion Cap in WW2 should have taken up more than one film. But they were busy trying to get out Avengers and have their espionage stories to tell, so we'll probably never see another flashback like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 As an audience member, you are expected to have whatever degree of respect (and maybe even awe) of Cap you came away with after having seen The First Avenger. If you were a member of the Avengers, your attitude towards Cap would vary depending on your own experiences (and knowledge of him), just as it does for Tony, Thor, and the others in the first Avengers movie. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone criticise the MCU for failing to properly impress upon viewers how long and distinguished Caps' service is understood to be by anyone in the MCU. I regard it as a complete non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Even within the comics, there are two issues. First, Cap's frozen time is longer and longer. In the early '60s, a WW II hero would be recognized by a much bigger portion of the population than in the early 2010's, Cap's approximate revival time in current continuity. As well, everyone remembered Cap, but no one remembered that WW II Human Torch, or the Sub-Mariner, even though they trashed NYC back in the '40s? Second, Cap impresses people. The Shi'ar and the Kree Supreme Intelligence didn't likely hold Cap in awe for his service in WW II, or even with the Avengers. Yet, in the Infinity arc, he quickly becomes the strategic leader of the galactic consortium arrayed against the Builders. Cap is the poster child for high PRE - it doesn't matter whether you are awed by him when he walks into the room - you will be by the time he leaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said: Cap is the poster child for high PRE - it doesn't matter whether you are awed by him when he walks into the room - you will be by the time he leaves. Doc Shadow, Christopher R Taylor and aylwin13 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted March 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 drunkonduty, Armory and tkdguy 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Quote First, Cap's frozen time is longer and longer. In the early '60s, a WW II hero would be recognized by a much bigger portion of the population than in the early 2010's This is something most people don't consider. When Captain America was thawed out (1964) the war had ended just over 20 years earlier. In other words, if he was unfrozen now, the war would have ended... in 1997 That's how contemporary and recent the war was to readers then. Lots of vets were around still, it was very fresh in people's minds. When the movie came out in 2011, it had been over 60 years since the end of the war, and Cap was apparently lost before the war ended. Now when exactly Cap was frozen isn't exactly certain. That was retconned in Avengers 4, because he just sort of tailed out in the 1950s when superhero comics were losing popularity. His last publication was in 1953, just about 10 years before he came back in the beginning of Marvel comics resurgence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) whoops - seriously, if you accidentally make a post, and weren't trying to... is there any way to completely delete it? Edited March 9, 2018 by RDU Neil didn't mean to post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, RDU Neil said: whoops - seriously, if you accidentally make a post, and weren't trying to... is there any way to completely delete it? You can add that button to the list that includes El Dorado, the Fountain of Youth, the Ark of the Covenant, and my faith in humanity. Lord Liaden and RDU Neil 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Let me see I have quote, edit, and options... if I press options, it can scroll to a delete option. However, I am a moderator, so not sure if you guys see what I'm seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 47 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: This is something most people don't consider. When Captain America was thawed out (1964) the war had ended just over 20 years earlier. In other words, if he was unfrozen now, the war would have ended... in 1997 That's how contemporary and recent the war was to readers then. Lots of vets were around still, it was very fresh in people's minds. When the movie came out in 2011, it had been over 60 years since the end of the war, and Cap was apparently lost before the war ended. Well, even 60 years later we as a culture think of WWII as a monumental world event, and we still know (and instinctively react) to words like "Nazi" and "Hitler" and "fascism" and "Holocaust". This was a war that seared itself indelibly into the collective unconscious of the American psyche. It is not difficult for me to imagine that a costumed hero like Captain America would ascend to the level of mythological figure, even after 60 years. Especially if he then returned to us and (famously) participated in the repelling of an alien invasion. Armory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 24 minutes ago, Old Man said: You can add that button to the list that includes El Dorado, the Fountain of Youth, the Ark of the Covenant, and my faith in humanity. We now know that El Dorado was in Africa, the whole time. I wouldn't hazard a guess as to where to find your faith in humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, Hermit said: Let me see I have quote, edit, and options... if I press options, it can scroll to a delete option. However, I am a moderator, so not sure if you guys see what I'm seeing. I'm afraid us peons don't get options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Bazza said: If I could walk around with a gauntlet containing Emma Stone, I probably would. Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 16 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: I'm afraid us peons don't get options. I am sorry, I have always tried to treat the peons with respect. Peons are the back bone of our cause. (Hits another one to motivate them to get back to work -For the Horde!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 9, 2018 Report Share Posted March 9, 2018 Quote Well, even 60 years later we as a culture think of WWII as a monumental world event, and we still know (and instinctively react) to words like "Nazi" and "Hitler" and "fascism" and "Holocaust". This was a war that seared itself indelibly into the collective unconscious of the American psyche. Oh I wasn't trying to say that the time would negate the respect, just that the original reappearance would have been greeted by a lot of people who knew and fought along side Cap. The relative differences in times fascinate me, especially with how we perceive it. I like to shift the time and put things into perspective using more modern time periods to help me think through what it was like back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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