Champions Begins - the GM Starter pack

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, you're right he needs more CV.  I think I want the gun to be not a focus because its such a basic part of his character; he just always has a gun as a soldier.  I'll give it some thought, I'd rather he be very impressive even if someone hasn't heard of him, just more so if they have.

[Amorkca]

Just a question, but is the Patriot someone who could have Only in Hero ID?  That might save points...

 

As The Patriot everybody knows about him/her but they can change and become a "normal" as well?

[Christopher R Taylor]

...That is an interesting option.  Instead of showing up out of nowhere, there's just always someone who becomes The Patriot when the time comes.  Would save a lot of points, and let me throw higher presence on them base, add in those combat levels.  Somethign to think about, I was trying to reduce complexity but that's not too bad.

[Amorkca]

...That is an interesting option.  Instead of showing up out of nowhere, there's just always someone who becomes The Patriot when the time comes.  Would save a lot of points, and let me throw higher presence on them base, add in those combat levels.  Somethign to think about, I was trying to reduce complexity but that's not too bad.

 

Over time you can have the Non-hero gain presence as well, the Old Soldier is rubbing off on him/her...

[Tasha]

A couple of comments. One why are all of the characters built with 300 points and not 400 points? 400pts are what is assumed to be Superheroic normal.

Also, IMHO every character presented are WAY WAY too complicated. Take a look at those 2e writeups. Take a look at ANY of Cassandra's characters. This product NEEDS that simplicity. Try for only a few powers. If the PC has more than 6 powers it's probably overcomplicated.

Make sure that the included PC's can fight any of the 400pt Villains from Champions Complete, or the Villains books.

ie Vulcan. Just buy his stats outright. Don't worry about the really complicated compound power. Instead of the TK for getting his hammer back. Just make the thing Restrainable or Only in Alternate ID. Alternate ID being him turning on his Resistant Defenses. Perhaps include "instant change" Build it like the book, but list it as points and Instant Change back to Normal guy.

I would recommend sticking with Basics. Blast, Resistant Defenses, Flight, Teleportation, Entangle, Flash. Flash Def.  In a section for "intermediate players" I would include a simple Mentalist.

Try for an Attack, Defense, Movement, something fun an iconic.

The adventure should also be basic. Viper's nest would be great for this.

 

Mission from UNTIL to take out a Viper Base. Introduction to UNTIL etc. Roleplay etc

Combat 1 Mooks at the door. The equivalent of Security guards. Small room, Everyone no more than 6m away. Enough Defenses that the PC's won't kill them when they hit the mooks with full attacks. The mooks have like 7-8d6 blasters. Nothing that will really endanger (ie Stun) the PC's. You are teaching how to hit. How to Roll damage, How to Move, How to defend vs attacks, How to Take Damage.

 

Combat 2 Elevator. They take the Elevator or Stairs down to the Base. Waiting for them are Rank and file guards. Better CV, 10d6 Blasters. Heavy Weapon guys with 14d6 blasters. Teaching about Knockback, and Getting Stunned. Also potentially Move Thru/MoveBy.

 

Etc. with each encounter becoming more powerful with new ideas added in.

I might even say to ignore the original Viper's nest and create your own adventure as a semi-homage to the original, but better designed to teach how to play. Keep the map simple. Entry office level that looks like a regular office building. No Viper Uniforms at the public level (could teach investigation skill use if GM wants, or could just jump to bulling their way past the first guards. Elevator that requires either Security Systems or a Guard Key card (no biometrics to prevent the PC's from falling back on any D&D Murderhobo habits). They can take the elevator down or break through the car and fly or whatever down the shaft. To the next combat at the first room. Keep the map pretty linear. Have the room with the real Supervillains be Big or even a mockup of a city street (the nest is a training base with a fake city block that looks like that classic street map from the earlier editions of the game). Keep the adventure simple and straight forward. Dovetail it into something more complicated like the Deathstroke Adventure or more Viper fun.
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

1) They are 300 points because the idea is that, over the course of the adventure, they will get "packs" of experience in bundled powers that are more familiar and similar to "levels" until by the end of the adventure they are 400 points.

2) I agree some of the builds are kind of complicated, but they're meant to be presented as super simplified versions to the players.  Vulcan looks more complicated than he is, because he's basically two character sheets on one - the player would get only Vulcan's powers.  But you're right I think they have more complexity than they probably ought.

3) The idea is to have several stages of an adventure, each one introducing different rules to help in a tutorial fashion with the game and showcase basic superhero standard adventures, so its got to be longer than just one session.

[Deadman]

I must say that I agree with Tasha.  Some of the powers are far more complicated than a new user should be expected to grasp.  For example, Honey Badger's Damage Negation and Damage Reduction should be lumped into just one or the other.  I think that Patriot is a good example of the simplicity that should be used.  If you want the 400 point builds to be more complex that would be fine because you have given the players and GM some time to get accustomed to the rules and the way that things work.

[Tasha]

I would remove ALL Damage Negation from beginning PC's IMHO it's one of the hardest  powers for GM's to deal with mechanically and pretty hard for new players to wrap their heads around.

 

Damage Reduction should also not be on Beginning PC's. Again too hard to deal with when players are going to have a hard enough time dealing with the idea that PD subtracts from damage.

[Tasha]

100 points of experience usually takes 33weeks assuming weekly games to amass. How about making the characters 375pts and removing CSL's. Add the CSLs back as the PC gains experience. That way you can teach what CSL's are for after the PC's are comfortable with basic play.

Here's my take on Vulcan. I added stuff that aren't obvious but if he really is an avatar of the god he would have. Also tried to give him a clockwork feel to some of his powers. I would probably remove the Destroy item and Repair item from the Hammer. I also removed the Focus Limitation from the hammer. That way even if he tosses the hammer it reappears in his hand. I did this to teach that somethings are just a part of Special effects (ie Vulcan vs his secret ID, and his hammer auto returning). Some things don't need to be written up, they are implied. He was also raised by a Nymph at the bottom of the ocean, learning how to swim fast was one of the first things he did. Being raised on the bottom of the ocean he would have to be immune to pressure and not need to breathe.

 

Vulcan.hdc

 

edited to include newer version of Vulcan.

 

Also, there's no real reason that Vulcan has to be a man. Esp if Vulcan is being treated like Thor and transforms the worthy with the hammer. 

[Tasha]

Patriot definitely needs some levels with combat or a higher OCV/DCV.  To get the points I would buy his Gun as OAF and perhaps add charges as well.  I would also raise his Reputation dice to +2/2d6 and drop Striking Appearance.  His OMCV doesn't need to be 4 either, you can leave it at 3 and raise his DMCV to show his willpower.  You could even create a Multipower out of his Hand Attack and add some slots that raise his OCV and DCV.  If you make them Variable slots he can choose what to add at any given time.

 

Something like this...

 

20     Fighting Prowess: Multipower 20-point reserve

3v          1) HTH Training: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

4v          2) Skilled Combatant: +4 OCV (20 Active Points)

4v          3) Elusive Combatant: +4 DCV (20 Active Points)

 

Perhaps the Patriot can ALSO be a magical Avatar. That manifests in a being helping the Country in a time of need. That it's been remarkable men and women of all colors and races all throughout American History. 

 

Perhaps also change the Complications a bit reflecting the debt that the Patriot has to the Native Americans who gave them this power.

 

Here's a bit of my take on the Character. built to 375 pts. Also give the character some background skills reflecting non heroing life. Even if that life was from the 1700's. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

100 points of experience usually takes 33weeks assuming weekly games to amass.

Correct, this would be an accelerated tutorial.  Read back the previous posts, we discussed the idea.

 

Also, there's no real reason that Vulcan has to be a man

Except for that's how the god is portrayed in every single instance of mythology, legend, and stories, so it would be weirdly forced to make him something else.  I figure since every single other character has a male and female version one is acceptable to not be binary.  People who cannot stand the idea of playing a guy have all those other choices.  Unless we decide to make Spellbinder always turn into a magic girl, an option I find very entertaining.

 

I must say that I agree with Tasha.  Some of the powers are far more complicated than a new user should be expected to grasp

I agree, and I'm going to go over them and lean them up a bit.  The simplified character sheets make them a lot easier to use but still they need toning down.

 

As for more skills; those can come in the experience blocs.  I am a big fan of characters "always having" abilities that never show up until later issues.  I mean, sure, Captain Keen might be a geologist, but its not until episode 4 when the rock monsters show up that he even uses the Geology skill.

[steriaca]

Perhaps the Patriot can ALSO be a magical Avatar. That manifests in a being helping the Country in a time of need. That it's been remarkable men and women of all colors and races all throughout American History.

 

Perhaps also change the Complications a bit reflecting the debt that the Patriot has to the Native Americans who gave them this power.

 

Here's a bit of my take on the Character. built to 375 pts. Also give the character some background skills reflecting non heroing life. Even if that life was from the 1700's.

Ah.. Something a cross between Captain America and Captain Universe.

[Amorkca]

Ah.. Something a cross between Captain America and Captain Universe.

 

Actually an embodiment of The Old Soldier, from Astro City Comics...

[Tasha]

Ah.. Something a cross between Captain America and Captain Universe.

And dial H for Hero, there's a ton of different supers that are the avatar that inhabits a normal person.

[Tasha]

Correct, this would be an accelerated tutorial.  Read back the previous posts, we discussed the idea.

That's a LOT of experience to give over a really short time. It's kind of setting up GM's to disappoint the PC's when they aren't giving tons of experience per session.

 

Except for that's how the god is portrayed in every single instance of mythology, legend, and stories, so it would be weirdly forced to make him something else.  I figure since every single other character has a male and female version one is acceptable to not be binary.  People who cannot stand the idea of playing a guy have all those other choices.  Unless we decide to make Spellbinder always turn into a magic girl, an option I find very entertaining.

Thor is generally portrayed as a man. Except for in the newest version of the character in Comics where the Mantle of Thor is a woman. Which makes this idea revelant and match the current comic version of Thor. It's given as a way to make the PC's more flexable to the players. IMHO it is important to allow the PC's to be played as either gender (and as more than just white folk). ie The artwork portrays Vulcan as a White Guy, while Greek people are Olive Skinned (ie Darker skinned). 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, Vulcan needs to be more dusky and olive skinned.  But I think having just one character that's set is not going to exactly offend or horrify anyone, surely.

 

Actually an embodiment of The Old Soldier, from Astro City Comics...

That was my concept, but if people think someone who just gains powers in the time of need of a nation would be a more interesting or better build I'm all for it.

 

That's a LOT of experience to give over a really short time. It's kind of setting up GM's to disappoint the PC's when they aren't giving tons of experience per session.

 

Its a risk, but I think most players today are familiar with the idea of the tutorial that ramps them up through power rapidly to their intended power level.  And, since these are intended to be learner characters rather than ones people stay with (unless they really want to), its just a way of helping people get used to the concept of spending experience, building characters, and increasing complexity rather than a demonstration of the usual campaign pattern.  

 

It is worth having special notes for the GM to make sure the players understand this, though.

[Amorkca]

I agree, Vulcan needs to be more dusky and olive skinned.  But I think having just one character that's set is not going to exactly offend or horrify anyone, surely.

 

That was my concept, but if people think someone who just gains powers in the time of need of a nation would be a more interesting or better build I'm all for it.

 

Its a risk, but I think most players today are familiar with the idea of the tutorial that ramps them up through power rapidly to their intended power level.  And, since these are intended to be learner characters rather than ones people stay with (unless they really want to), its just a way of helping people get used to the concept of spending experience, building characters, and increasing complexity rather than a demonstration of the usual campaign pattern.  

 

It is worth having special notes for the GM to make sure the players understand this, though.

 

I would suggest that the heroes be at 400 points by the time they encounter the Super Villains, so by about Act 3. Unless we have a four act program...

[Tasha]

It's not about not offending anybody. It's about giving a wide variety of options for potential players. So Someone who is interested in playing the MiniBrick/Energy Projector won't go "Oh, that character is only guy. So I guess I will be forced to play what other characters that you gender Female or give Male and Female options for. BTW it was awesome that The Patriot has options for play as either gender.

Again, I would recommend also that the PCs have some obvious thing they did before they were a superhero(ine). A Professional Skill for their Job and perhaps even some other supporting skills.

[Vondy]

I'm with Tasha on the level of complexity issue. These characters should be super simple and streamlined. Look at the example characters in the BBB for a guideline.

 

As for the Vulcan gender issue, aside from the name and art, I don't see the issue. Yes, the god was male in the myths and it's fine to default to that for the name and art (art costs money!).

 

But... how onerous is it to drop in a line saying "female players may want to rename the character Vulcana and draw a new pucture"? Nothing in the build is gender specific. We aren't classical literature critics and purists. It's just aethetics.

[massey]

I've kinda dropped out of this thread, but I'll chime in anyway.

 

I think there's a danger in making things too flexible, in that they're no longer identifiable as what they're supposed to be.  Remember that you need to keep in mind who your audience is.  As I see it, that's people who have seen some comic book movies and are somewhat interested in tabletop RPGs.  I don't know that they're going to be familiar with comics enough to know that Thor is (apparently) a woman right now.  I also don't know how long that storyline is going to last.  Assume it takes a year to finish "Champions Begins".  Will Thor still be a chick?  Will your target audience be familiar with it enough to recognize it?  We could have a dozen different versions of "Captain Generic", but I don't think that makes the product very appealing.  A big part of Luke Cage's character is that he's a big scary black guy.  Watering him down so that he can also be a little nerdy asian dude or a punky white lesbian female makes the character almost unrecognizable.

 

My first RPG book was part 1 of the "Pawns of Time" adventure for DC Heroes.  I got it as a Christmas present from a relative when I was about 10 or 11.  I think she thought it was a comic book.  It didn't have the rules to play the game, and I didn't even know what an RPG was at the time.  I remember reading the thing over and over, trying to make sense of the game stats and what they were supposed to mean.  The game is kinda screwy when nobody tells you that every AP is supposed to be double the value of the previous one.  "The guy on the other side of the room is 3 APs away.  Okay, got it.  Now we're flying to the moon, which is 30 APs away.  Wait... what?!?  How big is this room anyway?"  The adventure featured the Legion of Superheroes, who I had no idea who they were.  But a mind-controlled Supergirl showed up as an antagonist, and I knew who that was.  Familiarity with the characters is important.  Explaining the rules clearly is important.  Somebody should be able to pick up the product and at least play it through without any problems.

 

Without identifiable characters, it's hard for players to know how good something is.  A lot of the characters shown so far are different enough from the source material that I don't know that it's going to be clear to new players who they are supposed to be.  I know we can't have copyright infringement, but I think Crusader was a closer Captain America analog than Patriot is.  Patriot carries a gun, which Cap doesn't (other than during WWII).  And I know that in the end, an Energy Blast is an Energy Blast, but that's not necessarily going to be clear to new players.  If anything, I'd say the characters listed so far are almost too original.

 

Final thing, I'd say that the character designs should stay fluid until the adventure is prepared.  I love the above point about the guy who is the geologist, but the skill doesn't show up until the Rock Monsters appear in episode 4.  To really make the characters fit, we need to know what is going to happen within the adventure to know what skills and abilities they're going to gain.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Without identifiable characters, it's hard for players to know how good something is.  A lot of the characters shown so far are different enough from the source material that I don't know that it's going to be clear to new players who they are supposed to be.  I know we can't have copyright infringement, but I think Crusader was a closer Captain America analog than Patriot is.  Patriot carries a gun, which Cap doesn't (other than during WWII).  And I know that in the end, an Energy Blast is an Energy Blast, but that's not necessarily going to be clear to new players.  If anything, I'd say the characters listed so far are almost too original.

 

 

Its a tough line to work out.  I want them to be analogs of recognizable characters, but if they are too similar we run up against copyright problems.  I plan on the cover to be a basic duplicate of the Avengers poster (with the alternate characters in the pose) so its a bit easier to work out who's who and what we're dealing with, so that should help.  Its worth some thought, though.  I would think a super soldier, a god with a hammer, an armored bodyguard, and a guy with spider powers should be kind of clear without hammering people over the head, but maybe they could be more obvious.

 

I am going to work up some more streamlined, simple characters - in that case, they'll definitely have more skills because fewer, simpler powers = cheaper.

[PhantomGM2602]

Recently I read a little bit of STAN LEE'S DRAWING SUPERHEROES, currently being sold at Barnes & Noble, and it talked about the types of heroes in comics citing SUPERMAN and BATMAN as examples the types of heroes are shown below:

S TYPE HEROES

these heroes have, as a blurb from THE ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN points out,“powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal man” meaning that s/he is invulnerable, super strong,faster than any plane or spaceship and has a lot of extra powers like laser vision, super hearing, super breath and many other power you can think of. Though the big red “S” [you know who I mean] is the prime example, there many more “S” Type heroes. MALIBU COMICS Prime,Rob Liebfield's SUPREME are example of S types created by experiementation. Fawcett Comics' CAPTAIN MARVEL[or as he's known in th DC Universe,SHAZAM!], Big Bang's ULTIMAN, ASTRO CITY'S SAMARATAN,VICTOR from Hero Alliance,and Dark Horse's TITAN are also best examples.

B TYPE heroes

B type heroes, or costumed adventurers are men and women who are specially trained in crime fighting by using special equipment to accomplish thier means. best examples:

DC's BATMAN, BATWOMAN,NIGHTWING,ROBIN,ARSENAL, GREEN ARROW. MARVEL'S PUNISHER,MOON KNIGHT,DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON and MLJ'S/IMPACT'S Black Hood are all best examples.

[Steve]

For beginning players, this might have already been suggested but keep power frameworks like multipower to the bare minimum and avoid having too many limitations on powers.

 

For example, Storm God could have his hammer as a HTH Attack with an OAF limitation and the standard HTH limitation and that's it. Flight would be bought as its own power rather than a slot in a multipower.

 

The more straightforward a build is, the easier it is to walk new players through it.

 

Just my two cents.

[Pattern Ghost]

IMO, gender-swapped characters are asking for trouble from newer or less mature roleplayers. Why not use Indra as the thunder god? Plenty of Hindu gods swap gender anyway (but not Indra AFAIK, but who cares?) and the name can be either male or female. Seems like a female taking up the mantle of Indra would be no biggie for the pantheon.

[steriaca]

Spellbinder being a male to female super is only an "extended option". Same can be said of Vulcan (but female to male, of course). This simply involves a paragraph on the option, with the warning that it is an advance roleplaying technique and unwise for novice and immature players.