Cygnia Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 3 hours ago, Asperion said: Speculation: What will those who are being supported by Trump do on the extremely high possibility that he fails the upcoming election and is found guilty in this current criminal trial? I'm sure the Heritage Foundation has a contingency plan. The oligarchs aren't going to leave that to chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 5 hours ago, Asperion said: Speculation: What will those who are being supported by Trump do on the extremely high possibility that he fails the upcoming election and is found guilty in this current criminal trial? Bail on him, as he's clearly the flawed messiah. They'll anoint someone who doesn't come with more baggage than Paris Hilton. Abbott, perhaps? They'll try hard to repudiate the person while embracing the MAGA message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 To be fair, Trump has been more of a golden calf than a messiah. Pariah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, unclevlad said: Bail on him, as he's clearly the flawed messiah. They'll anoint someone who doesn't come with more baggage than Paris Hilton. Abbott, perhaps? They'll try hard to repudiate the person while embracing the MAGA message. I don't think so. Abbott, DeSantis, Carlson, have tried to co-opt the MAGA message, but have failed outside their bailiwicks. MAGA coalesced around Donald Trump, his image, his reputation, his inexplicable but undeniable charisma. People who think and feel like them have clearly long been part of American society, but Trump catalyzed them. They're as chaotic as Trump himself, with no unifying organization to speak of. I believe that without him they'll become like bees without the queen, satellites that lose their planet. We used to worry about someone who employed Trump's methods but was smarter and saner than him. The problem with all the more competent pretenders to Trump's throne is that they're too sane. For MAGA, crazy is the selling point. They revel in the irrationality, the chaos that Trump fosters. Others can try to imitate him, but they can never replace him. Like Elvis. Edited April 23 by Lord Liaden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 13 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: I don't think so. Abbott, DeSantis, Carlson, have tried to co-opt the MAGA message, but have failed outside their bailiwicks. MAGA coalesced around Donald Trump, his image, his reputation, his inexplicable but undeniable charisma. People who think and feel like them have clearly long been part of American society, but Trump catalyzed them. They're as chaotic as Trump himself, with no unifying organization to speak of. I believe that without him they'll become like bees without the queen, satellites that lose their planet. We used to worry about someone who employed Trump's methods but was smarter and saner than him. The problem with all the more competent pretenders to Trump's throne is that they're too sane. For MAGA, crazy is the selling point. They revel in the irrationality, the paranoia, the chaos that Trump fosters. Others can try to imitate him, but they can never replace him. Like Elvis. Yes, but their attempts to co-opt the MAGA message have occurred while Trump was still directing it. If Trump is convicted, and especially if he's in solitary confinement with no access to Xitter, the faithful will desperately cast about for someone else to tell them what to think. Not that I think Trump will ever see the inside of a jail cell, but that's what it'd take to put an end to the cult of personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 15 minutes ago, Old Man said: Yes, but their attempts to co-opt the MAGA message have occurred while Trump was still directing it. If Trump is convicted, and especially if he's in solitary confinement with no access to Xitter, the faithful will desperately cast about for someone else to tell them what to think. Not that I think Trump will ever see the inside of a jail cell, but that's what it'd take to put an end to the cult of personality. And that changes the game. DeSantis still loses out, I think, because he's botched the Disney issue so badly. He's the most exposed clown. Even if Trump's not in jail...let's postulate he loses the election, and is convicted in Georgia, where we've got the biggest smoking gun, the phone call. That's 3 separate, significant defeats...motivation to move on politically, and with the discredit from the Georgia convictions, it's likely his cult of personality will wither. So the bashing will begin. Those who have been TOO sycophantic...DeSantis is the obvious one...have another big strike. I'm thinking the election steal just won't be discussed any more...it's too Trumpian. That's a major strike against Carlson, but...Carlson would have to try following the Trump path, and he doesn't have the charisma for that. Abbott has policy points that align with the MAGA base, but I don't think he was so much tied to Trump personally. He's co-royal on his own...the Emperor of Texas. But he's anti-woke, he's anti-abortion, he's anti-immigration...he could pick up those pieces, if he wanted to. A humiliated, completely discredited Trump *wrecks* the Party as it is now. The shakeout might be the '26 mid term elections (including the Congressional primaries). That's likely to be the first time we have a chance to have a broad look at the post-Trump Party. I think that shuts the door on anyone from the House...and the disastrously bad clown show of the last couple years will be hard to overcome. The Senators? Cruz is too tied to Trump. Hawley is worse. I'm not gonna strain my brain trying to think of one that might work, tho. Feels like the best option might be a Republican governor. Abbott's the most widely recognized nationally, except perhaps DeSantis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Biden administration bans noncompete agreements for workers Takes effect in six months. Pariah and tkdguy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, Old Man said: Yes, but their attempts to co-opt the MAGA message have occurred while Trump was still directing it. If Trump is convicted, and especially if he's in solitary confinement with no access to Xitter, the faithful will desperately cast about for someone else to tell them what to think. Not that I think Trump will ever see the inside of a jail cell, but that's what it'd take to put an end to the cult of personality. I disagree. There is no heir apparent to Trump. If there was, with all the detrimental developments that have swollen around him, an heir would have appeared by now. And there's no MAGA hierarchical command structure for someone else to step into when Trump is gone, like Stalin after Lenin. The alliance between corporate elites, white supremacists, and evangelical Christians that Donald Trump forged is not natural. There was no such mass movement in America for him to have seized control of. He inspired it, and its disparate elements are invested in him and him alone. There are many other greedy, ambitious, evil people, who could do much harm, but they don't resemble Trump, and they can't replicate his brand of success. Donald Trump is a unique phenomenon. Thank God. Pariah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 35 minutes ago, Old Man said: Biden administration bans noncompete agreements for workers Takes effect in six months. If it holds up in court. It might. I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, non-competes are allowed...in restricted situations. From NYT: Quote The move bars contracts known as noncompetes, which prevent workers from leaving for a competitor for a certain amount of time, in most circumstances. Noncompetes cover about 30 million U.S. workers, the trade commission said, in a variety of jobs that include TV news producers, hairdressers, corporate executives and computer engineers. That seems like a LOT of people, and many who wouldn't seem to be privy to corporate privileged information. 1 minute ago, Lord Liaden said: I disagree. There is no heir apparent to Trump. If there was, with all the detrimental developments that have swollen around him, an heir would have appeared by now. And there's no MAGA hierarchical command structure for someone else to step into when Trump is gone, like Stalin after Lenin. The alliance between corporate elites, white supremacists, and evangelical Christians that Donald Trump forged is not natural. There was no such mass movement in America for him to have seized control of. He inspired it, and its disparate elements are invested in him and him alone. There are many other greedy, ambitious, evil people, who could do much harm, but they don't resemble Trump, and they can't replicate his brand of success. Donald Trump is a unique phenomenon. Thank God. There is no heir apparent because Trump is still on the scene. We're talking the person who would coalesce out of the rubble of the Party if Trump's out of the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 Yup, that's the crux of our disagreement. You see the appearance of such a successor to Trump as likely, I see it as unlikely. We'll just have to see which of us is right. I hope you don't mind that I really hope it's me. 🤞 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Donald Trump is a unique phenomenon. My turn to disagree. Yes, Trump has no heir apparent. But neither is he unique. The circumstances that created him--extreme wealth inequality, a corrupt boardroom class, and a frightened, undereducated population--will still exist if Trump leaves power. Sure, there will be a lull while the MAGA base and the oligarchy find another demagogue to rally around. But they inevitably will, unless something is done about the conditions that ultimately drove Trump's rise to power. Pariah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 Nature abhors a vacuum, therefore *someone* is going to pick up the pieces. Many of the MAGA/Trumpist policies have been on the Republican agenda anyway. If Trump goes, the tone changes, but they can still retain the entire pre-vetting for ideological purity, planning for '28. What aspects of the principle Republican agenda disappear with Trump? EDIT: note the "gains" they've made in several states, in moving to control the education system, the voting system at state levels. They'll still have the Supreme Court. They've largely stripped the legitimacy of several government agencies, when it was in their interest...the CDC being the obvious one. They like the House being seen as a clown show; there's been the argument made that the Supreme Court's loss of respect has led to state-level 'revolts' if you will, like Texas using state agents to enforce border laws...but rendering the House mostly pointless and paralyzed helps with that too. What we need to see is more pushback at the state levels. Preferably, rolling back some of the recent moves like the abortion bans; blocking the extreme moves by, say, Texas, isn't enough. That's a holding action. SOMEHOW breaking the wall of willful ignorance, behind which QAnon thrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 Impasse reached. I'll be moving on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Impasse reached. I'll be moving on. By definition one cannot move on through an impasse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 One can be headed off at the impasse. BarretWallace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 You guys think we can only move on in one direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: You guys think we can only move on in one direction? Definitely not. If forced to make a list of my favorite boy bands, I would put the Jackson 5 and N'Sync way above them. Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 9 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Impasse reached. I'll be moving on. 7 hours ago, Old Man said: By definition one cannot move on through an impasse. 6 hours ago, L. Marcus said: One can be headed off at the impasse. "Somebody's gotta go back and get a ****load of dimes!"- Blazing Saddles Starlord, BarretWallace, L. Marcus and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 The Republican plan for entrenched minority rule was in action long before Trump and will outlast him... though his reelection would turbocharge it: Fresh Air for April 22, 2024: How 'Minority Rule' threatens democracy : NPR Though the author interviewed notes the pushback has already begun in some states. For instance, Wisconsin voters shifted the balance of power in the state Supreme Court, in turn bringing a challenge to the extreme gerrymandering that gave Pubs their majorities in the state legislature. All is not yet lost, though hm, we do seem to be in the bottom of the 9th and the other team has the bases loaded. (I hope I got that right, sports metaphors are not my usual thing.) Dean Shomshak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 5 hours ago, Starlord said: Definitely not. If forced to make a list of my favorite boy bands, I would put the Jackson 5 and N'Sync way above them. If you haven't checked out the Osmonds, trust me, you're missing out. And I think that's about as far from politics as we can get. 😏 Pariah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 In case you missed it: Old Man, Lord Liaden, Tom Cowan and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 A lawyer who used to work for the Manhattan DS office gives his take on the 'Hush Money' (reallyElection Interference) case: https://www.npr.org/2024/04/22/1246429903/the-prosecutions-case-in-donald-trumps-hush-money-trial Big takeaway: Pundits who say the case is shaky or unprecedented don't know their legal history of the Manhattan DA's office. Falsified documents cases are bread-and-butter for this office; and some have involved politicians trying to influence elections -- just at much lower levels. Well, I hope it's as strong a case as he suggests, since it's the only one that's actually made it to trial, or is likely to before the election. Dean Shomshak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 54 minutes ago, tkdguy said: In case you missed it: I can't tell you how much it pleases me that Joe Biden, and other Democrats, have finally taken the gloves off and are going after Trump and the MAGA Republicans, calling out their BS, showing what buffoons they really are. It's long overdue. You can't stick to the high road when your opposition is wallowing in the mud. You have to sling some mud yourself. It doesn't hurt that the mud the Dems have to work with has some sharp rocks in it. tkdguy and Hermit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 22 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: I can't tell you how much it pleases me that Joe Biden, and other Democrats, have finally taken the gloves off and are going after Trump and the MAGA Republicans, calling out their BS, showing what buffoons they really are. It's long overdue. You can't stick to the high road when your opposition is wallowing in the mud. You have to sling some mud yourself. It doesn't hurt that the mud the Dems have to work with has some sharp rocks in it. Same here. Unfortunately, taking the high road just doesn't work very well in American politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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