Snipers and Spotters

[Dino]

So I was running a Sci-Fi game in Hero the other day and one of the PCs had a scoped hunting rifle and another PC had some Binoculars. PC: A asked PC: B to act as his spotter, because that's a thing in the real world. It immediately occurred to me that Hero System does not have a mechanic for one character helping another character aim. I ended up giving the shooter an extra point of OCV for having a spotter, but I think the second player still felt pretty useless.

 

What do you all think about spotters in game? I'm thinking of letting a character who acts as a spotter for another character use the Set maneuver and transfer the bonus to the shooter. (+1 OCV, +2 RNG MOD)

[IndianaJoe3]

For those of us who are unfamiliar with the doctrine, exactly what does the spotter do?

[Hyper-Man]

A spotter typically is taking a slightly wider view of the target and as a result has a better chance of seeing where any misses actually hit downrange.  This allows them to give very precise corrective advice to the shooter thereby letting them zero in on their target more quickly with fewer shots.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

HERO by default doesn't impose the granular real world penalties that truly long range rifle fire has to deal with (examples include gravity, air friction, cross wind, humidity, air pressure, spin of the earth).

 

From a sniper rifle I created for John Wick (Keanu Reeves).

 

[5]    DTA Stealth Recon Scout (338 LM):    (Total: 141 Active Cost, 39 Real Cost) RKA 3d6-1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (1,600m; +1/2) (70 Active Points); OAF (SRS-338 LM sniper rifle; -1), STR Minimum 13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (Bolt Action; -1/2), Beam (-1/4), 4 clips of 5 Charges (.338 Lapua Magnum round; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 16) plus +1 OCV with SRS-338 LM (2 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +3 to offset Range modifiers with SRS-338 LM (3 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +1  PER with Sight Group (2 Active Points); Limited Power  Only vs. Darkness Penalties (-1), OAF ( x10 Telescopic Sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 1) plus +14 versus Range Modifier for Sight Group (21 Active Points); OAF (x10 Telescopic Sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 6) plus +14 to offset Range modifier with SRS-338 LM (14 Active Points); Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), OAF (x10 Telescopic Sight; -1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Normal Sight; +1/4) for up to 70 Active Points of SRS-338 LM, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (25 Active Points); OAF (Flash Suppressor; -1), Limited Power  Only vs. Muzzle Flash (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 8) plus +1 OCV with SRS-338 LM (2 Active Points); OAF (Folding Bipod; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Sets With Bipod (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +2 to offset Range modifier with SRS-338 LM (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces With Bipod (-1), OAF (Folding Bipod; -1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

(Obtained from target)

When used with the Set & Brace maneuvers the combined total bonuses = +3 OCV and +21 vs. Range.  The default Range Modifier @ 2000m = -16.  The weapon's maximum range = 1600m.  The rules for this range do not take into account other extreme ballistic factors like air friction, weather, gravity and spin of the Earth.

http://www.imfdb.org...px-DTA_SRSB.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org...hnWickDTA-3.jpg

 

 

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

A sniper operating without a spotter just has more to pay attention to in case their 1st shot misses.  If they miss without seeing where their errant shot actually hit they will end up having to guess at what correction(s) if any they need to make to ensure subsequent shots will hit.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Military spotters typically also employ a separate laser range finder to help the sniper with their most important FIRST shot.

 

HM

[eepjr24]

For just having binoculars I think what you gave was about right. With training, laser range finder, wind gauge, etc I would give more range modification PSL's.

 

More info:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1r4irz/eli5why_does_a_sniper_need_a_spotter_when_both_of/

[Lucius]

I know that in some editions, there has been a Professional Skill: Forward Observer, that could give a bonus to indirect fire artillery. Basically, after each shot roll the Skill: success is a +1 to OCV for the next shot, cumulative.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has Forward and Backward Observer

[Beast]

Spotter can also

spot other high value targets

spot counter snipers
over watch for patrols
when a sniper is sighting their arc of view is very limited

[Surrealone]

This is an example where I'm forced to admit that I've never liked the Teamwork skill being based on Agility ... specifically because snipers and spotters train to work as a team.  Each is capable of the other's role and  each trains for both roles.  Agility has practically nothing to do with their particular form of teamwork, as it's based on perception, communication, and the ability of the shooter to take what is perceived/communicated by the spotter and translate it into adjustments that are mostly calculatory adjustments for shot corrections.

 

I would expect the Sniper and Spotter to both have an Intelligence-based skill akin to 'Shooter-Spotter Teamwork' to represent the spotter's perception/communication and the shooter's ability to do something with it.  I would allow a +1 OCV adjustment for each 3 points by which BOTH made their rolls.  i.e. If the spotter had a 14- and rolled an 11, he made it by 3 ... meaning he observed the shot and communicated the corrective info fairly well ... but now the shooter needs to do something with the info, so he rolls his 15- rolls ... and also rolls an 11 ... making it by 4.  Since both made it by 3, the shot was observed, corrective data was communicated, AND the shooter managed to do something with it ... so I'd allow a +1 OCV for the shot.

 

If each had made it by 6, that'd be a +2 OCV. 

Note that the skill would not be bought on a focus ... but would require the use of one ... by each user.  (The spotter would need an optic and the shooter would need a firearm that had an optic.)

[Christopher]

Actually I always had asumed the spotter had to keep the overall battle in thier line of sight.

Kinda like shown here:

http://terra-comic.com/wordpress/archives/comic/page-08

 

As nice as a scope is, it forces you into tunnel vision. It is damn hard to find a high value target through a scope, look for enemy sneaking up on you, etc.

Basically for the purposes of spotting something interesting on the battlefield - including the next high value target - (or someone sneaking up on the team) the Sniper is distracted. Plus the spotter can acutally spend his actions to get +2 to spotting.

[Lucius]

This is an example where I'm forced to admit that I've never liked the Teamwork skill being based on Agility ...

And I dislike its rather limited defined role in the game.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Teaming up with a palindromedary

[eepjr24]

Just use the Skill roll based on alternate characteristics on 6e1, 55?

[Ninja-Bear]

You know cinematically you almost always see the sniper solo. Thats why probably Hero doesn't have rules for Spotters. Well maybe the latest rules of Dark Champions does.

[Hyper-Man]

A Spotter brings many of the same benefits as an old F14 RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) or F15e WSO (Weapon Systems Officer). They lighten the systems workload for the pilot so they can focus more energy towards actually flying the aircraft in combat situations.

 

HM

[Steve]

In the case of Teamwork, I think it could be used for Spotter-Sniper combos, only substituting an INT-based instead of a DEX-based roll for that particular use of the skill. If both make their rolls, Sniper gets a +2 PSL bonus versus range. For every two points they each make their rolls, I'd consider adding another +1 versus range penalties. If they both make it by half, perhaps then no range penalty.

[Surrealone]

I like that even better (+2 PSL vs. range for every 2 by which the pair BOTH make their rolls) using INT-based Teamwork.

[bigdamnhero]

Simplest way off the top of my head might be: make a Teamwork Roll* and if they make it the Sniper gets to use the Spotter's CSLs in addition to his own. Essentially the Spotter's CSLs become UBO; you could even build that out as an actual Talent if you thought it was going to come up regularly. Of course that assumes the Spotter has CSLs with the weapon the sniper is using, but that actually makes some sense to me.

 

* Valid point that basing Teamwork on Agility doesn't make much sense in this context.

[bigdamnhero]

Just to see what it might look like:

 

Spotter Skill:  Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 20 Active Points of Combat Skill Levels usable with sniper rifle, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); OAF (Binoculars; -1), Requires A Teamwork Roll (Skill roll; Recipient Must Also Make Teamwork Roll; -1), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Incantations (Must Be Able To Communicate With Sniper; -1/4) [2 RP, 0 END]

[Mister E]

Sniping is psychologically taxing due to the questionable morality of it.

 

Alone a person is not likely even going to take a sniper shot.

 

Also it is an easy thing to miss even if a sniper shot is taken.

 

Conscience is at play.

 

Spotters provide the necessary peer pressure needed to go out & kill on command.

 

Everything else points to snipers being able to work just fine alone.

 

They just don't.

[eepjr24]

Just to see what it might look like:

 

Spotter Skill:  Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 20 Active Points of Combat Skill Levels usable with sniper rifle, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); OAF (Binoculars; -1), Requires A Teamwork Roll (Skill roll; Recipient Must Also Make Teamwork Roll; -1), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Incantations (Must Be Able To Communicate With Sniper; -1/4) [2 RP, 0 END]

Just remember the -2 to the roll for 20 AP.

 

- E

[wolfrunswithfox]

Another option would be to add some CSLs to the sniper rifle with a custom "Only with a spotter" limitation.  Since it requires another character taking dedicated action, I'd expect "Only with a spotter" to be a reasonably high-value limitation (I'd eyeball it at -1).  This has the advantage of putting the spotter mechanics on the character sheet of the player who brought spotting up in game.

 

I only have experience with 6E, so I appologize if my suggestion isn't relevant to the edition you're actually playing.

[dmjalund]

which edition of Snipers & Spotters are we talking about?

 

[Lucius]

Sniper/Spotter Team Training: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) +1 with Rifles (3 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Required Multiple Users (2 people; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> +2 to offset range modifier with any three maneuvers or tight group (4 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Required Multiple Users (2 people; -1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if one can buy levels with Brace or with Sete