Mind Flayers

[Spence]

I don't want instakills but I do want them to be truly feared. I was afraid to go against certain creatures in D&D, villains in Hero do not have the same aura of dread.

 

hmmm.. I wouldn't say that

 

There are worse outcome than death for a PC.  It is all on how you run the game.  

 

For my actual campaigns, the players all maintained PC Stables.  Each player had more than one PC, but could only play one in a session.  

Being captured by a villain was more painful to most of my players than the PC being outright killed off.  

 

Especially after the Psycho incident. muhahhahhahhhahaa! 

 

One of the Heroes was captured by a powerful mentalist Villain.   Lets just say the returning Hero wasn't exactly his old self   

 

But that does take a good group of players interested in Role playing.  

[massey]

I don't want instakills but I do want them to be truly feared. I was afraid to go against certain creatures in D&D, villains in Hero do not have the same aura of dread.

 

So how about something like this (5th edition writeup):

 

Mind Flayer

 

Str 20

Dex 18

Con 18

Body15

Int 23

Ego 20

Pre 30

Com 0

 

PD 9 +6r magic spell (15 total)

ED 9 +6r magic spell (15 total)

Spd 4

Rec 8

End 36

Stun 34

 

Extra limbs: tentacles

+2 with grab

+10 Str, only w/ grab and brain bite (-1)

Brain bite: 1D6+1 HKA, Armor Piercing (3D6-1 AP with Str)

 

Psionics

Mind Link w/ other Mind Flayers

4D6 Ego Attack, Area Effect: Cone, requires full phase, x2 End

8D6 Telepathy

8D6 Mental Illusions

 

6/6 Force Field "magic spell"

 

Stealth

Survival

Tactics

Teamwork

KS: Psionics

KS: Underdark

KS: Magic

 

--

 

There you go.  To most Fantasy Hero characters, downright terrifying.  No instant kill abilities in there, but very dangerous nonetheless.  The threat comes not from what he'll do on average, it's from what he could do on a good roll or with good tactics.  I'm not sure how tough your PCs are, but from what I remember, a book FH character will be able to beat this guy in straight up combat.  But get two of them, have them make a Teamwork roll and coordinate their mental blasts, and you'll leave most of the team Stunned and some of them unconscious.  Then haymaker a Mental Illusion or two and make the fighters think that the Mind Flayers left and that a troll is coming up behind them or something.  They turn to face the imaginary threat, and the Flayers grab a mage or something and start biting.  The bite is powerful enough to be really dangerous without instant killing them.

 

If you do it right, one or two Mind Flayers can shred a party, without actually killing anyone.  Let them escape with their lives (barely), and then let the players know it was only two of them who did it.  After that, have players see them in groups of 3 or 4.  They'll be extremely cautious and try to stay away.

[Scott Baker]

I don't want instakills but I do want them to be truly feared. I was afraid to go against certain creatures in D&D, villains in Hero do not have the same aura of dread.

It's all how you define your campaign. And then build the villains. You can have a deadly campaign, even with superheros if that's what you want. However, Hero System was not designed with absolutes in mind, so it doesn't include your standard D&D 1001 ways to kill a character with no save or defense.

[Doc Democracy]

If fear is what you are looking for then you need to demonstrate the power without killing the characters.  It is indeed what redshirts were created for.  Make the players afraid.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, that's exactly the point here.  Do you really want the monsters to be able to kill PCs with it, or just demonstrate a creepy ability?  If the latter, then it doesn't need to be built

[tiger]

This is an old write-up I've used from 5th edition and then upgraded to 6th

Mind Flayer.pdf

[Ninja-Bear]

I was thinking Ego drain that does body, AVLD so from mental def to PD, no range and must grab.

[bigdamnhero]

Gygax was enamored with murdering characters off, apparently he though that would be fun to people or just was sadistic.

EGG, God rest his soul, was a wargamer at heart. The objective of a wargame is to kill as many of the other side as possible. He seemed to regard RPGs the same way. [shrug] I'd rather tell a good story myself, with just enough threat of death to keep everyone in suspense.

 

Well in 2e all four tentacles have to hit in order to partake of the grey matter milkshake so it's not an easy maneuver to pull off. The prospect of dying gave you a closer bond with your beloved character I always found. D&D was my first rpg when I started back in 197(cough)9.

Heh, I've gotcha beat by a couple years, but only a couple.

 

It sounds like a strong HKA built with "Must Follow Grab." You could even make it require multiple Grabs, since by default a single Grab uses 2 limbs. Add on the fact that they have to hit a Called Shot to the Head (even against a held target, that's till a challenge), and you've got a great way to build suspense, one tentacle grab and I'm okay, now two tentacle grabs and I may be in trouble and HOLY CRAP THIS THING JUST TRIED TO EAT MY FACE SOMEONE KILL IT!!!!!

 

I was afraid to go against certain creatures in D&D, villains in Hero do not have the same aura of dread.

Then no offense, but it sounds like you need tougher monsters! There's nothing sacred about the builds in the Bestiary or elsewhere, so if they're not tough enough for your PCs, make `em tougher! Also consider using the Impairing/Disabling rules if you're not already doing so. Champions doesn't tend to be highly lethal by default because most of the superhero comics it's meant to emulate don't tend to be highly lethal. But Hero System can easily be made plenty lethal by flipping a few switches.

[Tasha]

BTW I like Massey's Mind Flayer Brain Bite. Though I don't much see the point of having AP on the attack. Usually the target is DCV 0 being held by a Mind Control (BTW 8d6 is kind of low powered for a mental power IMHO). Doing a called shot grab to the head would be really easy. I wouldn't bother with treating the tentacles as extra attacks (perhaps Penalty Skill levels vs Grab Head Shots +3 OCV)

Just a 1d6+1 HKA with the Mind Flayer's 20 str makes the attack 2.5d6 HKA. Which makes for a very deadly attack no matter what location it hits. Against an unarmored target that makes for an near instant kill 18 body to a single location in a disabling wound for all but the toughest fighters. (must do body to the location equal to the PC's Body score). Against platemail or any kind of REAL armor it doesn't do much damage, but I have a problem imagining a beak or bone spur ripping though steel armor.

 

[Tasha]

Oh, and I really hate that whole save or die mechanic of all of the D&D flavors. It leaves the my character's life up to a single die roll, which IMHO is BORING and Frustrating. There's a VERY VERY Good reason that I switched to Hero in the 80's and never really looked back. Why each other game I play make me want to play Hero more.

[GCMorris]

I understand that not everyone likes D&D. I've played Champions since 1989 when the 4e rules came out (still using it) but D&D is still my choice for fantasy and I tend to have a stronger bond with my D&D characters after them surviving to medium-high levels because it felt like an accomplishment. Plus in D&D you have Raise Dead and Resurrection so there's really no perma-kill in D&D.

 

I just wanted advice on how to treat that particular ability in Hero System. I have two races in mind for continuing antagonists- mind flayers and Cenobites (demons) to go with my villain with a god complex. I will also have a criminal organization of some sort. I've kinda gotten carried away creating villains, the party had better hope more than one Hunter doesn't show up at once

[Ninja-Bear]

I always found in Fantasy Hero the balance of having combat/monsters be deadly enough to be a threat to not being giving characters pause tricky.

[Tasha]

I understand that not everyone likes D&D. I've played Champions since 1989 when the 4e rules came out (still using it) but D&D is still my choice for fantasy and I tend to have a stronger bond with my D&D characters after them surviving to medium-high levels because it felt like an accomplishment. Plus in D&D you have Raise Dead and Resurrection so there's really no perma-kill in D&D.

 

I just wanted advice on how to treat that particular ability in Hero System. I have two races in mind for continuing antagonists- mind flayers and Cenobites (demons) to go with my villain with a god complex. I will also have a criminal organization of some sort. I've kinda gotten carried away creating villains, the party had better hope more than one Hunter doesn't show up at once

The problem with that is that most supers have enough Resistant defences that the "Open the Skull and eat the contents" ability is pretty useless in a typical Champions Campaign. I sounds like you want to run a Horror Champions Mashup. So I guess the PC's will be low powered Supers at best. Otherwise the Mind Flayers and Cenobites will really not stack up as anything particularly dangerous. Bringing the PC's down in power to the point where Horror actually works tends to turn the game into Urban Fantasy Hero (ie Fantasy critters set in Modern Technological Now setting). The Super Genre tends to turn any genre added to it into a Supers game. That sounds obvious, but It's very hard to make a supers game feel like anything but a supers game. You may run something with Fantasy or Horror Trappings, but having superheroes in it tends to smooth those genres into the super genre.

[Spence]

I understand that not everyone likes D&D. I've played Champions since 1989 when the 4e rules came out (still using it) but D&D is still my choice for fantasy and I tend to have a stronger bond with my D&D characters after them surviving to medium-high levels because it felt like an accomplishment. Plus in D&D you have Raise Dead and Resurrection so there's really no perma-kill in D&D.

 

I just wanted advice on how to treat that particular ability in Hero System. I have two races in mind for continuing antagonists- mind flayers and Cenobites (demons) to go with my villain with a god complex. I will also have a criminal organization of some sort. I've kinda gotten carried away creating villains, the party had better hope more than one Hunter doesn't show up at once

[Tasha]

I love Hero for everything from Pulp, Modern Adventure, Fantasy and even for Superheroes. It does those really really well. It has a Cinematic feel with lots of crunch. Which means that the system tends to be pretty soft on PCs (though it can be hardened to be grittier). That said the whole system is set up with a different set of assumptions than D&D and it's clones. One assumptions is that nothing is absolute. No instant kills, no total defenses etc. IMHO it make for better games where Players can feel comfortable being Big Darned Heroes. There isn't going to be the monster that eats their brain in a single action or the spell that totally destroys the PC if they miss a resistance roll. Efforts to shoehorn such things into the system usually don't work.

[Cancer]

A case could be made that in some D&D editions with munchkinny players, the most feared and hated enemies were the rust monsters, who ate your stuff (and there aren't any Resurrect Stuff rituals). Put five mind flayers and two rust monsters on the map, and the party unloads all their alpha strikes immediately on the rust monsters.

[Ninja-Bear]

The problem with that is that most supers have enough Resistant defences that the "Open the Skull and eat the contents" ability is pretty useless in a typical Champions Campaign. I sounds like you want to run a Horror Champions Mashup. So I guess the PC's will be low powered Supers at best. Otherwise the Mind Flayers and Cenobites will really not stack up as anything particularly dangerous. Bringing the PC's down in power to the point where Horror actually works tends to turn the game into Urban Fantasy Hero (ie Fantasy critters set in Modern Technological Now setting). The Super Genre tends to turn any genre added to it into a Supers game. That sounds obvious, but It's very hard to make a supers game feel like anything but a supers game. You may run something with Fantasy or Horror Trappings, but having superheroes in it tends to smooth those genres into the super genre.

I get what you are saying, but I think you have overeached with the Horror Hero. Just because he wanted a dreaded vilkain doesn't mean he has to try to totally switch genres. Doesn't Super Heroes have Vampires and Werewolves in it?

[Lucius]

 

Bear with me a minute

 

Illithid Bite: (Total: 10 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6-1 (10 Active Points); -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Inaccurate (1/2 OCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Yes, that's totally lame. It's supposed to be. If the monster just walks up to you and bites you, it won't be very effective.

 

But then we add the "Tendrils of Horror" Martial Art package and its chain of escalating attacks

 

Weapon Element: Default Element: Natural Weapons

+2 HTH Damage Class(es) 8 pts

 

First, Seize the Head: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 3d6 NND 4 pts

This is basically identical to Choke Hold and represents, well, seizing the head of a victim.

The rest of the moves are built "from scratch" using the optional rules for building Martial Maneuvers.

 

Second, Adjust Grip: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, +30 STR , Block; +30 STR to retain grip; must follow First 5 pts

This is a block, because it's usually easy at this point for the monster to forestall any aggressive moves by the person whose head it is holding in powerful tentacles. This can only follow a successful seizing of the head in the first place.

 

Third, Crush the Victim Senseless: 1+1 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV, Flash 6d6, +15 STR to retain grip, must follow Second, Flash Sight, Hearing, Touch 5 pts

While doing no actual damage (except perhaps bruising the head) the pressure of this tightening grip blacks out the senses of sight, hearing, and touch for 6d6 Segments. This can only follow a successful adjust grip maneuver in the second place.

 

Fourth, Extract and Consume Brains: 1+1 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Weapon +6 DC, Disabling, +15 STR to retain grip, must follow Third 3pts

Cracking the skull open like a nut, this attack raises the damage of the bite to 3d6-1 Killing, and we're not stopping there. This can only follow a successful attempt to crush the victim senseless in the third place.

 

And now a Talent to up the damage another 3 notches.

 

Eat your Brain: (Total: 12 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Deadly Blow: +1d6 ([very limited circumstances] (with Extract and Consume Maneuver)) (Real Cost: 12)

I think getting through the above series of attacks constituted "limited circumstances." This raises the damage to 4d6-1 and the maneuver counts as Disabling and targets the head. Even someone wearing a DEF 8 helm might be taking brain damage.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that adds up to 41 pts but who's counting?

[Grailknight]

I get what you are saying, but I think you have overeached with the Horror Hero. Just because he wanted a dreaded vilkain doesn't mean he has to try to totally switch genres. Doesn't Super Heroes have Vampires and Werewolves in it?

 

In a Horror or Low Fantasy game, defeat by a vampire or werewolf means a character gets turned or dies more often than not. In High Fantasy or Supers, its more a plot device or radiation accident. The in-game expectations are radically different.

[Tasha]

I get what you are saying, but I think you have overeached with the Horror Hero. Just because he wanted a dreaded vilkain doesn't mean he has to try to totally switch genres. Doesn't Super Heroes have Vampires and Werewolves in it?

 

They do, but a vampire is just a super strong super fast fast healer that can't stand sunlight. A Werewolf is just a superstrong super regen, with a great killing attack. Both with super senses. They aren't really any different from Damage Dealing Melee or Bricks. They aren't the scary monsters they are in a Heroic level game.

[Tasha]

Bear with me a minute

 

Illithid Bite: (Total: 10 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6-1 (10 Active Points); -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Inaccurate (1/2 OCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Yes, that's totally lame. It's supposed to be. If the monster just walks up to you and bites you, it won't be very effective.

 

But then we add the "Tendrils of Horror" Martial Art package and its chain of escalating attacks

 

Weapon Element: Default Element: Natural Weapons

+2 HTH Damage Class(es) 8 pts

 

First, Seize the Head: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 3d6 NND 4 pts

This is basically identical to Choke Hold and represents, well, seizing the head of a victim.

The rest of the moves are built "from scratch" using the optional rules for building Martial Maneuvers.

 

Second, Adjust Grip: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, +30 STR , Block; +30 STR to retain grip; must follow First 5 pts

This is a block, because it's usually easy at this point for the monster to forestall any aggressive moves by the person whose head it is holding in powerful tentacles. This can only follow a successful seizing of the head in the first place.

 

Third, Crush the Victim Senseless: 1+1 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV, Flash 6d6, +15 STR to retain grip, must follow Second, Flash Sight, Hearing, Touch 5 pts

While doing no actual damage (except perhaps bruising the head) the pressure of this tightening grip blacks out the senses of sight, hearing, and touch for 6d6 Segments. This can only follow a successful adjust grip maneuver in the second place.

 

Fourth, Extract and Consume Brains: 1+1 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Weapon +6 DC, Disabling, +15 STR to retain grip, must follow Third 3pts

Cracking the skull open like a nut, this attack raises the damage of the bite to 3d6-1 Killing, and we're not stopping there. This can only follow a successful attempt to crush the victim senseless in the third place.

 

And now a Talent to up the damage another 3 notches.

 

Eat your Brain: (Total: 12 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Deadly Blow: +1d6 ([very limited circumstances] (with Extract and Consume Maneuver)) (Real Cost: 12)

I think getting through the above series of attacks constituted "limited circumstances." This raises the damage to 4d6-1 and the maneuver counts as Disabling and targets the head. Even someone wearing a DEF 8 helm might be taking brain damage.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that adds up to 41 pts but who's counting?

In a Heroic Game even a 2d6 HKA is pretty frightening. Rereading the OP he is going to use Mindflayers as Villains in his Champions Campign. I was just pointing out that they won't have the same impact they do in a Heroic game (Even with your DC11 Eating Brains Maneuver). Except for the mind powers (which are similar to your run of the mill mentalist), they don't have any attacks that will scare supers much. I guess they can go after DNPCs and Innocent Bystanders. Though Killing a PC's DNPC isn't a bell that can be unrung.

[GCMorris]

Hrrmfff... I may turn into a slow recovery INT/EGO transfer . I welcome all input but I do want to incorporate that attack mode and make it nasty. Is it acceptable to have two ability transfers linked to one attack? Thank you all for your wisdom.

[bigdamnhero]

Though Killing a PC's DNPC isn't a bell that can be unrung.

...unless someone has Resurrection of course.

 

I agree with you that using horror elements in a supers game is not the same as running a horror game. If the heroes can fight back reliably, it's not horror. For that matter, I typically describe the difference between urban fantasy and horror as: urban fantasy has heroes, horror has victims.

[Doc Democracy]

Hrrmfff... I may turn into a slow recovery INT/EGO transfer . I welcome all input but I do want to incorporate that attack mode and make it nasty. Is it acceptable to have two ability transfers linked to one attack? Thank you all for your wisdom.

Now that is something that might scare the players. Beginning to click into the whole re-write to concept rather than try to replicate functionality. :-)

 

The power my players hated more than any other was Mental Entangle (3rd edition I think). I soon understood that any villain who even suggested they might possess that power became the sole focus of attacks until they were a faint red smear on the ground. The power was effectively removed from the game unless I wanted to label a villain as despicable beyond measure....

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Hrrmfff... I may turn into a slow recovery INT/EGO transfer . I welcome all input but I do want to incorporate that attack mode and make it nasty. Is it acceptable to have two ability transfers linked to one attack? Thank you all for your wisdom.

I would add +10 PRE fear based (-1) because having someone chew your face off is scary!