Master Villains

[specks]

Has your PCs encountered the Master Villains like Doctor Destroyer, Mechanon, Menton, etc...? Have they been in direct combat with the big guys, fought the minons or is more of a cameo?

 

[drunkonduty]

I'm not a big fan of master villains. Or at least not the ones in the published CU. Destroyer and Takofanes leave me cold. I like Mechanon, but he's too powerful for any game I've ever run. I kinda like V'Han, but she is obviously very problematic as a villain because if she's involved then the whole campaign is about her.

 

Lesser Master Villains (is that an oxymoron?) like Professor Muerte (a 4th ed. villain)  are much more usable.

 

But no Champions game I've ever run has gone on long enough for the hero's to have enough XP to be big and powerful enough for me to even consider them facing a master villain.

[Ninja-Bear]

Drunkondduty have seen the Slug? He’s labeled as a “lesser@ Master Villain and I can see using him myself.

[Lord Liaden]

I have played or GM'd in campaigns where the PCs were experienced enough, or built powerful enough to take on the likes of Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon in direct combat. I know other Champions gamers who've also played in games at that level. I remember one of our forum colleagues posting here that he ran his team of veteran Justice League-level heroes against the 5E version of Destroyer as printed in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks, and killed him -- killed him -- in less than two Turns of combat.

 

Mind you, I didn't necessarily use the most OP rendition of those villains in my own games. One thing I like about the "Book Of..." approach to different official villains, is that those books provide alternate versions of the villain at higher or lower power levels, or with different styles, to more easily fit them into a given campaign. Then there are the "master villains" who are purely behind-the-scenes manipulators, not designed for a stand-up fight with teams of heroes; the likes of Dr. Moreau, or Franklin Stone, or the latest Supreme Serpent of VIPER. Even Istvatha V'han is far from the toughest of opponents. Her threat derives from her limitless resources (see below).

 

In any case, IMHO the epic master villains are best used as the climax of a campaign, after the PCs have worked through their schemes and lesser forces. Another thing I really appreciate in the Books Of... are all the included followers of the master villain, opponents who can be part of any of the master's schemes, so that lesser-powered PCs can thwart those schemes without having to face the master him/herself. At the moment I'm developing a number of followers for the cosmic tyrant Xarriel, from Champions Beyond, who's clearly too powerful for all but the mightiest hero teams to battle face-to-face. Hopefully I'll be able to share them with you all one day.

[steriaca]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

At the moment I'm developing a number of followers for the cosmic tyrant Xarriel, from Champions Beyond, who's clearly too powerful for all but the mightiest hero teams to battle face-to-face. Hopefully I'll be able to share them with you all one day.

Have you seen the Create A Theam Villain Team we did on Agents of Xarriel? I'm rather found on my De Sade homage Sa Des myself.

 

It is on page 147, in case you want to look at it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I never put my campaign PCs up against a master villain like that, their encounters were usually incidental or something the villain set up.  Like the time that the Overlord (not the one from Strike Force) tore apart a Viper base, then leaked its location to the PCs.  They arrived, found dead and destroyed viper agents and equipment, and at the end a bomb that blew up and de-powered them all.  This was in the heart of the worst part of Detroit, and in my campaign Viper had taken over Detroit and made it much, much worse.  Gangs running the streets like Mad Max or Escape from New York.

 

He just wanted to see how they'd get out and if they would live.

[Lord Liaden]

40 minutes ago, steriaca said:

Have you seen the Create A Theam Villain Team we did on Agents of Xarriel? I'm rather found on my De Sade homage Sa Des myself.

 

Yes. No disrespect intended, but I found those to be more derivative from existing comic-book characters than I'm comfortable with. I know Xarriel is inspired by Darkseid and Thanos, but I'm trying to be more original in creating his followers, and to give them distinctive unifying themes. I'm also drawing inspiration from precedents already established in the CU, so they feel like an organic part of the setting, yet not requiring the setting books to use. It's an interesting creative challenge.

[Hermit]

Back in the old days when I got to table top game... I ran a few campaigns where the PCS had enough EXP to take on the big bads.

Quite often, until then, it was more a behind the scenes bit...

Though nothing like having the Empress of a Billion Dimensions actually show up in person to hear their diplomatic requests for a mutual non aggression pact on behalf of this Earth.

 

The one I hesitate to use now is Mechanon, and not for the 'too powerful' reasons. I have a player who, in more than one character run, has critted on Mechanon not every encounter, but Multiple TIMES every encounter. It is WEIRD...

She will roll 3 ones  every third roll on his metallic butt. Doesn't matter if she's playing a blaster, a brick, or a speedster... 

Never felt sorry for a genocidal robot before as I do when she's around.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Sounds like Mech should include a few dice of Luck in his next upgrade.

[steriaca]

8 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Yes. No disrespect intended, but I found those to be more derivative from existing comic-book characters than I'm comfortable with. I know Xarriel is inspired by Darkseid and Thanos, but I'm trying to be more original in creating his followers, and to give them distinctive unifying themes. I'm also drawing inspiration from precedents already established in the CU, so they feel like an organic part of the setting, yet not requiring the setting books to use. It's an interesting creative challenge.

No disrespect was taken, my Lord. We had our fun creating them, but it is true, they are mostly Darkside's Elite with the serial numbers filed off.

 

Still, they are good for ideas. Like "ok, if I was to make my own homage of villain X I would do this instead of that".

[DShomshak]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 3:02 PM, specks said:

Has your PCs encountered the Master Villains like Doctor Destroyer, Mechanon, Menton, etc...? Have they been in direct combat with the big guys, fought the minons or is more of a cameo?

 

Fighting master villains is the whole premise of my currently-on-hiatus Champions campaign. Each of the heroes of Avant Guard was pulled from a future in which one of the current master villains won, leading to the eventual destruction of humanity. They fight other villains too, but their particular purpose is to make sure those futures don't happen.

 

So far, they have definitely killed the Atomic Brahmin, Professor Proton, greatest master villain of India. The alien robot hive-mind called the Monad seems gone too, though more because of Doctor Thane, who terrifies even other master villains. Doctor Thane is currently gone, apparently destroyed in thwarting his attempt to destroy the Universe. (Just to see if it was possible. He didn't know if he'd survive success. Yeah, Thane was nuts.) The ecoterrorist master villain Baron Frost apparently blew up too, but there's no body so nobody thinks he's really dead. They've clashed with the primordial chaos-goddess Tiamat a couple times, and survived a couple meetings with the mad biologist Helix. They actually teamed up with the mutant uber-mentalist Contessa in an attempt to kill Helix -- she can't rule humanity if Helix exterminates it, and her -- but that did not go well.

 

I carefully design my master villains to present a hard fight for the team, especially if they have ally/minion backup, and to be good at getting away if the heroes are winning. In the case of Professor Proton, the heroes spotted his Psych Lims and played on them to enrage him, preventing him from teleporting away.

 

If you want to learn more, search the forum for my "Millennium Universe" thread. It was some years ago, though.

 

Dean Shomshak

[massey]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

This was in the heart of the worst part of Detroit, and in my campaign Viper had taken over Detroit and made it much, much worse.  Gangs running the streets like Mad Max or Escape from New York.

 

How is that worse than actual Detroit?

[Ninja-Bear]

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I have played or GM'd in campaigns where the PCs were experienced enough, or built powerful enough to take on the likes of Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon in direct combat. I know other Champions gamers who've also played in games at that level. I remember one of our forum colleagues posting here that he ran his team of veteran Justice League-level heroes against the 5E version of Destroyer as printed in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks, and killed him -- killed him -- in less than two Turns of combat.

 

Mind you, I didn't necessarily use the most OP rendition of those villains in my own games. One thing I like about the "Book Of..." approach to different official villains, is that those books provide alternate versions of the villain at higher or lower power levels, or with different styles, to more easily fit them into a given campaign. Then there are the "master villains" who are purely behind-the-scenes manipulators, not designed for a stand-up fight for with teams of heroes; the likes of Dr. Moreau, or Franklin Stone, or the latest Supreme Serpent of VIPER. Even Istvatha V'han is far from the toughest of opponents. Her threat derives from her limitless resources (see below).

 

In any case, IMHO the epic master villains are best used as the climax of a campaign, after the PCs have worked through their schemes and lesser forces. Another thing I really appreciate in the Books Of... are all the included followers of the master villain, opponents who can be part of any of the master's schemes, so that lesser-powered PCs can thwart those schemes without having to face the master him/herself. At the moment I'm developing a number of followers for the cosmic tyrant Xarriel, from Champions Beyond, who's clearly too powerful for all but the mightiest hero teams to battle face-to-face. Hopefully I'll be able to share them with you all one day.

That’s some good information on “the books of....”. I would’ve have known that from the blurb on the back and adds more usefulness of said books.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

My group has encountered Menton, Gravitar, Teleios, and Skarn. Most of these encounters didn't involve direct combat.

[drunkonduty]

Ninja-Bear: Oh yeah, I like the Slug. He's weird enough and just powerful enough to make for a very interesting villain for starting heroes.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, drunkonduty said:

Ninja-Bear: Oh yeah, I like the Slug. He's weird enough and just powerful enough to make for a very interesting villain for starting heroes.

 

 

Second vote for Slug.

 

Not because I think he's perfect or any such thing-- I just find his power levels to be more approachable for the games I run.  Granted, I haven't seen a write-up of him since 3e, so that may have changed.  Essentially, "instigator of the apocalypse" level villains just leave me cold: the game devolves into a pseudo-military feel I don't want in my games.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

I like the Slug too, for the reasons already stated plus others. He has emphatically been upgraded since 3E (and his incarnation in Galactic Champions is pretty intimidating), but definitely "second tier" among the masters. To be fair, he still has potential to be instigator of the apocalypse -- he just needs help.

[Duke Bushido]

54 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I like the Slug too, for the reasons already stated plus others. He has emphatically been upgraded since 3E (and his incarnation in Galactic Champions is pretty intimidating), but definitely "second tier" among the masters. To be fair, he still has potential to be instigator of the apocalypse -- he just needs help.

 

 

Then, should I use him (remember I tend to shy away from published stuff-- not as a snobbery, but it generally has to be tweaked so much to fit into my game that it's easier to make new stuff from the get-go), I guess I'll stick with his 3e incarnation.  I find that, handled properly, this is more than enough to give a team of four or five heroes a fit.  

 

Oh-- a bit off-topic, but since you're here, LL:

 

After you told me that the "official" universe features a team of super-parolees with the same name as my super-parolees, I have done a retcon.  This afternoon, I introduced my youth group to "Strike 2."  (this was the unofficial in-joke name given to the team when it was originally composed of PCs, during the short story arc that brought the team into existence in the first place).

 

I actually think I like it better: it's more fitting, more subtle, and more down-to-earth.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

SOme of the designs and concepts of the master villains in the CHampions Universe are interesting but as built they are ridiculously, insanely overpowered.  Its like having fifteen Galactuses walking around the world.  One almost gets the idea that the designers felt like they were in some kind of arms race: oh yeah?  "Well you're not gonna beat my Dr Destroyer!!!!"

[Ninja-Bear]

Well the Slug in 5th-CKC, besides some background fluff tweaks seems pretty much the same as the original 3e version. Plus in the sidebar, Steve has some other lesser Eldar Worms stats. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher Taylor, that’s the feeling I got from Taknofanes. I read his background-in CKC, and wondered why he just didn’t take over?

[Jhamin]

I ran a very long term game that lasted from early 4th edition to the end of 5th edition.  Dr. Destroyer was still too powerful for my Players, but Mechanon became a long-running antagonist.  His increase in power from 4th to 5th more or less kept him above the PCs but not overwhelmingly so.  Although I do admit I didn't give him all the slots in his multipower when they first ran into him in 5th edition, they were added over time as he upgraded his body.

The 6th edition version seem a bit high-powered for the suggested starting heroes, but I suppose you need somewhere to go.

[Lord Liaden]

Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, Mechanon, are supposed to be in the upper rank of the setting's villains. Nobody is telling Marvel to get rid of Thanos or Magneto because they're too powerful. If you don't want to use those Champs villains in your games for that reason, maybe Kinematik, or Holocaust, or the Warlord, or Necrull, or King Cobra, etc. would be more suitable.

 

For my part, given my druthers I prefer a high-powered superhero game. Just as in my comics, I like my supers to be super. I respect the range of published villain power levels that Hero currently supports, but I'm happy there's a nice variety that fit my play style. I'm sorry if other gamers feel there isn't as much support for their styles as they want; however, I don't consider a published character's default power level to be, in itself, an objective measure of whether said character is "good" or "bad."

[Ninja-Bear]

I like the Cult of the Red Banner. Besides it’s martial arts flavor, what I really enjoy is that the group/Death Dragon has range of various henchmen from Iron and Gold which have a Dark Campions feel to Yi Lung the Avatar of the Death Dragon himself! Another factor is that I can see the Cult using mercenaries for a particular job so if you need/wanted non-martial villains, it isn’t such a squeeze to use. (I see this coming from mainly Iron since he has a separate gang from the Red Banner itself). 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh LL I respect that you like Galactus and Thanos and I can see from that perspective that Cu  should have that type of villain. It’s a ymmv type thing

Edited April 1, 2019 by Ninja-Bear
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