Question on adding STR to HKA

[Brian Stanfield]

I have a character with STR 14 in HERO Designer and a Dagger:HKA 1d6 (1d6+1 w/STR), Range Based On STR (+¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (26 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-¼), STR Minimum 4 (-¼), Beam (-¼)

 

So here's what I can't figure out: The character has 10 points of STR over the STR minimum, but HD is only adding 1 DC to the attack (bolded above). Is the program charging the elevated DC cost because of the advantages of the weapon, despite their not really affecting the damage of the attack? The rule on this on 6e2 97 says that the Advantages in this case should not apply, since they don't directly affect the damage taken. Am I missing something in the rule, or am I missing something in HERO Designer?

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

I have a character with STR 14 in HERO Designer and a Dagger:HKA 1d6 (1d6+1 w/STR), Range Based On STR (+¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (26 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-¼), STR Minimum 4 (-¼), Beam (-¼)

 

So here's what I can't figure out: The character has 10 points of STR over the STR minimum, but HD is only adding 1 DC to the attack (bolded above). Is the program charging the elevated DC cost because of the advantages of the weapon, despite their not really affecting the damage of the attack? The rule on this on 6e2 97 says that the Advantages in this case should not apply, since they don't directly affect the damage taken. Am I missing something in the rule, or am I missing something in HERO Designer?

 

I suspect that Hero Designer does not distinguish between STR Min 4 and STR min 8.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is also surprised to see "Beam" as a Limitation on a hand to hand power....

[Brian Stanfield]

3 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

I suspect that Hero Designer does not distinguish between STR Min 4 and STR min 8.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is also surprised to see "Beam" as a Limitation on a hand to hand power....

 

All the knife builds share this same peculiarity. I wonder if it’s so that the knife can also be thrown, since it’s an HKA with range based on STR. 

[Lucius]

39 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

All the knife builds share this same peculiarity. I wonder if it’s so that the knife can also be thrown, since it’s an HKA with range based on STR. 

 

No, if you want the knife to be throwable I think what you need is a Naked Advantage: Limited Range, with Lockout.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Puzzled on a palindromedary

[Brian Stanfield]

5 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

No, if you want the knife to be throwable I think what you need is a Naked Advantage: Limited Range, with Lockout.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Puzzled on a palindromedary

 

All I can tell you is that every single knife build in a HERO Designer prefab is built exactly how I listed it above. That’s cut-and-pasted from one of the prefabs.

 

The Advantage Ranged: Range Based on STR is the advantage that makes an HKA throwable, and Beam is what makes the knife deflectable. The problem is that, even if HERO Designer can’t distinguish between STR Min 4 or 8, the extra DC for STR still isn’t getting added at the normal rate to the dagger as a melee weapon. I think the Advantages are getting applied to the attack, so that the 1d6 dagger is actually a 5 DC HKA, so the STR bonus goes up at an increment other than 5 STR per DC.

[Grailknight]

So test it out.

 

Buy a character with the prefab and the build the knife on the same character adding one modifier at a time. You should be able to see the DC and point cost changes and pinpoint where it goes off kilter. 

 

Or you could ask Simon in the HERO Designer thread.

[Toxxus]

Hero Designer can tell the difference.

 

You have to change the STR MIN value from: 4-8 to 4

 

Then  it will correctly add damage classes based on your strength over the STR MIN.

 

I ran into this awhile ago myself.  Basically changing the STR MIN from a range to a specific value does the trick.

[Brian Stanfield]

2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

Hero Designer can tell the difference.

 

You have to change the STR MIN value from: 4-8 to 4

 

Then  it will correctly add damage classes based on your strength over the STR MIN.

 

I ran into this awhile ago myself.  Basically changing the STR MIN from a range to a specific value does the trick.

 

I tried this, as you can see in the writeup above, but it didn’t change anything for me. I’m still getting an extra DC for every 6 points of STR. 

[Toxxus]

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I tried this, as you can see in the writeup above, but it didn’t change anything for me. I’m still getting an extra DC for every 6 points of STR. 

 

Ah, sorry, missed that somehow.  It  most likely is the advantage causing the extra STR required to shift to 6 pt increments.

 

The easy and non-optimal fix is to remove the offending advantage.  Have you tried removing Range based on STR to see if it straightens it out?

 

If that does turn out to be the problem then perhaps a post in the HERO Designer forum might get more attention.

[Lord Liaden]

Although some Advantages don't affect the Damage Class of an attack, almost all of them do cause the effective Strength you can apply to be "pro-rated" for the Advantages. In other words, the total STR you're using would be divided by the Advantages on the HKA to find how much STR you can actually apply to the HKA to increase its Damage Class.

 

IIRC Reduced Endurance is not pro-rated that way, but even Range Based On Strength would be enough to lower your 10 STR to an effective 8, below the threshold to increase the HKA by two DCs.

[Brian Stanfield]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Although some Advantages don't affect the Damage Class of an attack, almost all of them do cause the effective Strength you can apply to be "pro-rated" for the Advantages. In other words, the total STR you're using would be divided by the Advantages on the HKA to find how much STR you can actually apply to the HKA to increase its Damage Class.

 

IIRC Reduced Endurance is not pro-rated that way, but even Range Based On Strength would be enough to lower your 10 STR to an effective 8, below the threshold to increase the HKA by two DCs.

 

As I was reading the rule on this, I wondered about Range Based on STR. Does that affect the way damage is done to a target? I wavered, but I suppose it redefines what counts as a target in the first place, so some damage versus no damage is a distinct advantage. 

[Chris Goodwin]

6e2 p. 98 has a list of what Advantages are typically considered to add to DC (including the "final list is up to the GM" disclaimer).  Range Based On STR is not on that list, nor is Reduced END, and I wouldn't consider it to be one that affects the way damage is done to the target. 

 

It seems to me that there's a quirk of some kind in Hero Designer that's displaying it as +1 DC.  It looks to me as if it should be +2 DC, and I'd just treat it as that.  It's a "cross out machine gun, write in pizza oven" kind of situation.

[Lord Liaden]

As I indicated, it's not an issue of what Advantages add to Damage Class. It's an issue of pro-rating Strength over the total Advantages of all sorts on the HKA.

 

I couldn't find the rule spelled out in Champions Complete (I don't have the full 6E rule set), but 5ER pp. 408 and 409 does describe it, and based on published character sheets I've seen I don't think it's been changed:

 

"If a character adds STR damage to an Advantaged HKA (or other Killing Damage attack), his STR adds to the attack's damage at a lesser rate.

To determine how much STR it takes to add +1 DC, apply the Advantages on the Power to 5 STR (the basic amount used to add 1 DC). The result is how many points of  STR it takes to add +1 DC to the attack. For example, if a character with 30 STR has an HKA 4D6, Armor Piercing [which was a +1/2 Advantage in 5E], it takes 7.5 points of STR (5 x (1 + 1/2) = 7.5) to add +1 DC to the attack (so, with 30 STR, the character adds 4 DCs, increasing the attack's damage to 5D6+1; adding +3 DCs would require 22.5 points of STR). As indicated in this example, the standard HERO System rounding rules do not apply when determining the amount of STR required to add damage (don't round at all).

For purposes of using this rule with melee weapons, ignore the Reduced Endurance Advantage (which all melee weapons must have). STR adds to a weapon with Reduced Endurance as if the weapon was un-Advantaged (or only has whatever other Advantages are applied.)"

[Duke Bushido]

Right.

 

The more effective the STR is, the less effective it is.  

 

Got it?

 

hey, wait......

 

 

 

[Brian Stanfield]

9 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

As I indicated, it's not an issue of what Advantages add to Damage Class. It's an issue of pro-rating Strength over the total Advantages of all sorts on the HKA.

 

9 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

For purposes of using this rule with melee weapons, ignore the Reduced Endurance Advantage (which all melee weapons must have). STR adds to a weapon with Reduced Endurance as if the weapon was un-Advantaged (or only has whatever other Advantages are applied.)"

 

Unsurprisingly, this rule is much longer in 6e, and like the description of how to calculate a To Hit Roll, it is worded in a much different and more confusing way. But the 6e rule specifically says to not include advantages that don't affect damage. Reduced Endurance and Range Based on STR are not part of the list of advantages to include when one refigures the cost of adding STR to Damage. 

 

I'm inclined to think that maybe this particular case is an idiosyncrasy of HERO Designer.

[dsatow]

On 4/22/2019 at 10:01 AM, Toxxus said:

 

Ah, sorry, missed that somehow.  It  most likely is the advantage causing the extra STR required to shift to 6 pt increments.

 

The easy and non-optimal fix is to remove the offending advantage.  Have you tried removing Range based on STR to see if it straightens it out?

 

If that does turn out to be the problem then perhaps a post in the HERO Designer forum might get more attention.

 

Sorry, just the SQA engineer in me,

 

I just tried this with my copy of HD (removed all limitation and just kept the two advantages on a strength of 14) and it works correctly.

 

Question: Did you buy any strength with the effect "Do not add to totals"?

[Brian Stanfield]

43 minutes ago, dsatow said:

 

Sorry, just the SQA engineer in me,

 

I just tried this with my copy of HD (removed all limitation and just kept the two advantages on a strength of 14) and it works correctly.

 

Question: Did you buy any strength with the effect "Do not add to totals"?

I did the same experiment and it came out with the same increased result. I asked the designer and he says that the advantages (other than 0 END) count against the prorated STR, so it is "supposed" to work that way. Although I'd interpret the rule differently, since the text specifically says otherwise, it's not worth arguing with Simon about anything. It just makes him terse, and he digs in his heels. So I'll accept the increase. Since I'm dealing with heroic characters, it's not that big of a difference anyway. 

[archer]

On 4/23/2019 at 3:53 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

 

 

Unsurprisingly, this rule is much longer in 6e, and like the description of how to calculate a To Hit Roll, it is worded in a much different and more confusing way. But the 6e rule specifically says to not include advantages that don't affect damage. Reduced Endurance and Range Based on STR are not part of the list of advantages to include when one refigures the cost of adding STR to Damage. 

 

I'm inclined to think that maybe this particular case is an idiosyncrasy of HERO Designer.

 

I like crunchy game systems, I really do.

 

But things like "you count some advantages for this thing but don't count others for this thing" makes me want to throw my hands up in the air and walk in circles for a couple of minutes until I calm down a bit.

 

Buying a HKA to zero END increases the damage output because the person can use it every phase rather than having to stop when he runs out of END or charges. Every advantage given to an attack power increases the damage output of the character: that's the purpose to giving an advantage to an attack. Even making the attack fully invisible increases the damage output of the character because he'll be able to use the power in more situations than he would be able to otherwise.

[Brian Stanfield]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:22 PM, archer said:

 

I like crunchy game systems, I really do.

 

But things like "you count some advantages for this thing but don't count others for this thing" makes me want to throw my hands up in the air and walk in circles for a couple of minutes until I calm down a bit.

 

Buying a HKA to zero END increases the damage output because the person can use it every phase rather than having to stop when he runs out of END or charges. Every advantage given to an attack power increases the damage output of the character: that's the purpose to giving an advantage to an attack. Even making the attack fully invisible increases the damage output of the character because he'll be able to use the power in more situations than he would be able to otherwise.

Agreed. Although Hero Designer doesn’t exactly conform to the rule on this, I think it is a bit more consistent in how it’s applied. And I don’t really care all that much. In a piece of equipment like a knife, it makes 1 point of difference in the Real Cost, and because it’s equipment it doesn’t cost anything anyway, so no biggie. I was just curious for the purposes of teaching the rule to new people. 

[dmjalund]

We should add terminology to differentiate AdvantagEs into END increasing and non-END increasing

 

like, say, Power Advantages and Power Enhancements 

or 

Power Advantages and Effect Advantages

 

Or something else 

 

[Doc Democracy]

28 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

We should add terminology to differentiate AdvantagEs into END increasing and non-END increasing

 

like, say, Power Advantages and Power Enhancements 

or 

Power Advantages and Effect Advantages

 

Or something else 

 

 

I would agree with you if we were not already drowning in terminology! 🙂

 

I reckon there should be a symbol in the rulebook to make it obvious if you are looking it up, more useful in the lists in the rulebook.

[Brian Stanfield]

I’m more inclined, after thinking on this a while, to agree with Archer and just accept that all Power Advantages actually affect damage in one way or another, and so should be included in the calculation of extra Damage Classes. 

[Lord Liaden]

An official ruling from Steve Long is coming -- just be patient a bit longer.

[Toxxus]

On 5/5/2019 at 7:18 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

I’m more inclined, after thinking on this a while, to agree with Archer and just accept that all Power Advantages actually affect damage in one way or another, and so should be included in the calculation of extra Damage Classes. 

 

I lean this way as well.

 

If nothing else, just to trim the ruleset down to something that normal human beings (not nerds like us) are willing to play with.

[Brian Stanfield]

On 5/5/2019 at 12:04 PM, Lord Liaden said:

An official ruling from Steve Long is coming -- just be patient a bit longer.

Steve may come up with an official ruling, but Dan Simon has already made an official ruling on how Hero Designer shall interpret this, and you’ll not see him budge . . .