Advice for a rookie GM with rookie players

[Duke Bushido]

On June 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM, BoloOfEarth said:

 

A word of advice - be very careful regarding GMPCs.  As a player, I got irritated with several "I wanna play too" GMs.  Also, I've found (and YMMV) that players get irritated when someone else swoops in to save the day.  It takes some of their thunder away.

 

I can't stress that hard enough!  Two different GMs before the guys from my first-ever Champions group drug me away to their group taught me, even before I was a GM-- to _never_ do that.  It was like ignoring the characters and slapping the players' faces directly.  Then Jim (my first Champions GM) taught me how to use it _well_.  Eh...  maybe I should say "how to use it better."  I don't think there's a _great_ way to use it, honestly, but there is a way to do it without stealing the player's spotlight.  The experienced character can yell "look out!" when someone really flubs a roll.  The experienced character offer paramedic to a downed player, or whisk them away to medical treatment _if_ no one else on the team is able to provide it.  Your players have sat through nine sessions without picking up on a blatantly obvious thing that you have spelled out in fluorescent graffiti across every setting and clue?  (not that they're stupid: this happens to all of us once in a while) and you're approaching the moment when they _really_ need to know that?  On the fly, you've added two extra scenes just for the extra chance to make the connection, and you're running thin on ideas or in-game time?  The veteran might have a half-thought: "say...  you guys think this might be the same guy who....?"

 

Use them as personalities more than characters:  they are a great way to demonstrate actual role-playing to newer players who may not be comfortable with it yet.  You can use them to demonstrate in-character conversation and world-building through expounding on the life of this character.  They can be a small hint when everything else has completely failed to work, but they should never be facilitators, short-cuts, or combat machines. 

 

On June 29, 2019 at 10:25 AM, dialNforNinja said:

a "Tony Stark at sixty" type mostly-retired mentor.

 

This is an ideal way to do it, if you have to do it:  The veteran is in a position where the players can come to him when they're ready: when they have exhausted every idea they've had, and they're ready for a hint.  Just don't let that hint be a cheat code.

 

 

On June 29, 2019 at 10:25 AM, dialNforNinja said:

edit: The GMPC is definitely a support character - he drives the team van and keeps it handy when they pile otu to fight in case they need to pile back in to pursue, or to evacutate civliains, etc., and doesn't have the reflexes or endurance to do more than, say, fire an Entangle gadget at the enemies to make an opening for the new gen to turn the tables in a losing fight, for example. As GM I'm quite sure I'll be busy enoguh keeping track of the normal NPCs without running an extra party member full time

 

Ideal.  Again, if you _have_ to have a GMPC, that is.

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

 "Peli-kinetic"

 

I just want you to know that I am now absolutely _compelled_ to do something with this word.  Something truly, truly awful and goofy and lots of fun, but I _must_ do it; there was never a choice.  

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

Extra-Dimensional Movement limited to only objects/characters other than the user and being touched kind of matches but seems overcomplicated and expensive. I don't really see a better alternative, though - Shrinking with the same limitations might work but probably ends up even more expensive if it's enough to reduce anything decently large to a small enough size to be trivial, and then it can still be physically taken. Transform at the Major level that can make objects from nothing could maybe work but means you're destroying and recreating the Precious MacGuffin™, which could mean Bad Things if taken literally... of course, the whole point is that the mechanics aren't taken literally as SFX, but it still feels even more awkward than XDM. Anyone have a better idea?

 

A better idea?  No.  It sounds like you've given this plenty of thought as it is.  You've noticed the "downsides" to everything else:  Transform means "break it here"  (which leaves evidence) and "recreate it here" which is likely going to take longer than regurgitating it.  Additionally, you've got other issues:  suppose a charm on some item lasted until that item was destroyed?  You broke it. Your recreation won't have that charm.  How long do you have to study and object to recreate an _exact_ duplicate, anyway?  Things like that.

 

Shrinking means there is still a chance of it being found, seen, taken, or even just flat-out lost.

 

EDM-- part of the Trifecta of Cobble-- is a permanent burr under my saddle, but in this case, it really seems to be the simplest (and most appropriate fix).  You don't need multiple "levels" of it and it's as instantaneous as you want it to be.  It delivers the actual item and not a copy.  Mechanically, EDM seems to do what you want it to do.

 

5 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

edit: Also, how much would you say those limitations are worth? 

 

 

Sorry, Amigo: I ain't touchin' that one.  I'm one of the minority (smaller with each edition, it seems) that believes the value of a limitation or advantage varies based upon the campaign in which it's being used, and that "doesn't work underwater" should be worth a hell of a lot more when you're the emissary to Atlantis, and a hell of a lot less when you're tasked with patrolling Death Valley.

 

 

But I have no doubt you will get some solid advice shortly.

 

Gotta run: youth group game starts in thirty minutes, and I've got to prep the room.

 

 

 

Duke

 

[IndianaJoe3]

7 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

Since I have an "enemy wants to steal the thing" plot, I was thinking I'd reuse one of my old (never built in HERO) character concepts: The Pelican, who has a "pelican pouch" power that lets him store away large and heavy things invisibly/without getting weighed down (along with "Peli-kinetic" flight/strength/force field defense, all straightforward and not problematic in the least)

 

APG2 has an Extradimensional Space power that would, ah, fit the bill.

[massey]

I'd suggest the following:

 

1)  Don't worry about overly complicated designs just yet.  Focus on having a simple character sheet that is easy to understand.  New players won't be impressed by a character that's too complex, they won't get it.  Keep it simple and don't be afraid to fudge things in their favor.

 

2)  Build everybody a starting character and let them modify it to their tastes if they wish.  Let them be as involved as they want to be, but have a functional character for everyone.

 

3)  Keep all OCVs and DCVs within 3 of each other, and keep all Speeds within 2 of each other.  If the fastest guy in the group has a 10 OCV and a 6 Speed, then the slowest guy needs at least a 7 OCV and a 4 Speed.  Otherwise people can't hit and they don't get to go enough.  Likewise keep damage within 2D6 of each other, and keep defenses within 10.  If the brick has 30 PD, the weak guy needs 20.

 

4)  Don't worry about certain things at first.  Endurance, range modifiers, and body damage can all be disregarded for a while without causing a problem.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, don't keep track of END at first.  But eventually, definitely do because not only does it feel more like adventuring games (players today are super familiar with energy pools and running out of power and needing to recover etc) but it really sets Champions apart from various competitors.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

I would strongly suggest introducing physical trackers at or by the time you introduce END.  Colored beads, paper clips on numbered strips, anything where a player has to physically manipulate something.  My current group is absolutely terrible about remembering END even exists. 

[dialNforNinja]

8 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 APG2 has an Extradimensional Space power that would, ah, fit the bill.

Alas, I have only Champions Complete and Champions Powers, and the perennial end of the month budget squeeze means I'm not even looking at the ebook website for a while either.

Good pun though, and something to keep in mind for later. I really want the Martial Arts book first off, though.

(And yes, there's downloads out there, but I want to be legal, and preferably have a physical copy at the table, for things I'm actually going to do more than skim through to decide whether to buy let alone actually play. Buying game stuff is how we get more game stuff, after all, while not buying game stuff is how to make game designers have to go get INT-draining "real" jobs...)

[Spence]

I'd gauge it, it being END, by your group. 

I took the advice of "no END" once and all it did was piss off the group later.

 

END and the Speed Chart are two of the primary things that makes Hero, Hero.   Leaving them out and you really aren't playing the game.

Explaining END as your energy pool is not hard and if you mention it the first few times, players are not dumb and will catch on. Quickly. 

 

I usually explain those two items from the get go. 

END is not a problem if you prepare for it.  I always introduce the game using pregens and I strip all the build mumbo jumbo off of the sheets.  I also stay simple in the pregen builds.  Powers are written/described in plain language and a quick list of END costs.

 

For Example:

Electro-Blast. 

A ranged electrical energy blast that does normal physical damage.  You can change the intensity of the blast from 1D6 to 10D6. 

The END cost is 1 point for every 2D6.

 

And I guide the speed chart. 

Me: "OK, segment 8.  Who is next?"  Pause "Bob?  Isn't that you?"

Bob: "Right, that's me."

Me "What are you doing?"

Bob: "Well.....I'll blast him with my.......Electro-Blast!  Yah, that's what I do."

Me:  "Cool, how big a blast do you want an how much END will it cost?"

 

Easy.  And the players catch on fast if you treat it as easy.  Act like it is hard and they will have problems.

 

I mean seriously, it is 3d6 roll low for EVERYTHING.  Powers, skills and so on. Every RPG on the market uses modifiers and half the RPG's I play now are roll low. 

 

The simplest I dumb down the rules is this. 

"Hey everyone, for the first few sessions we are not going to use modifiers.  See the Combat Maneuvers block on you sheet? We'll ignore it at first.  It and range mods.  As soon as we all get comfortable with the flow of the game, we can add them in." 

 

When the players decide they are ready I usually run a small combat that "didn't happen in the game" so they can play around with the maneuvers and modifiers. 

 

Playing Hero has never been the problem.

The build rules are what chase new players away.  Especially if they are expected to create their PC before they get a chance to play. 

 

[Spence]

18 minutes ago, dialNforNinja said:

 

Alas, I have only Champions Complete and Champions Powers, and the perennial end of the month budget squeeze means I'm not even looking at the ebook website for a while either.

Good pun though, and something to keep in mind for later. I really want the Martial Arts book first off, though.

(And yes, there's downloads out there, but I want to be legal, and preferably have a physical copy at the table, for things I'm actually going to do more than skim through to decide whether to buy let alone actually play. Buying game stuff is how we get more game stuff, after all, while not buying game stuff is how to make game designers have to go get INT-draining "real" jobs...)

 

 

While I am 100% behind picking up the books like the Hero System Bestiary, Martial Arts and so on. 

I would advise limiting yourself to only the core book of choice for the first campaign.  Hero 5th, Hero 6th and Champions complete all have a few examples you can use if needed such as Karate and so on. 

 

Keep it simple and accessible in the same rulebook the players are using/own. 

Once they are onboard and able to build their own stuff, go to town. 

[dialNforNinja]

8 hours ago, massey said:

3)  Keep all OCVs and DCVs within 3 of each other, and keep all Speeds within 2 of each other.  If the fastest guy in the group has a 10 OCV and a 6 Speed, then the slowest guy needs at least a 7 OCV and a 4 Speed.  Otherwise people can't hit and they don't get to go enough.  Likewise keep damage within 2D6 of each other, and keep defenses within 10.  If the brick has 30 PD, the weak guy needs 20.

This especially is the kind of thing I was hoping for, with no old hands in the group to lean on for that sort of tribal wisdom. All the same 30 PD/ED? Do most people just ignore the Characteristic maxima stuff, then? Because that would mean spending 100cp on JUST PD/ED at the default starting value of 2 and double cost after 8, and that's before making them Resistant... Though looking at Ironclad in the back of CC he does have 25 each for 23cp, so I guess the designers did in fact ignore it despite presenting it as the standard that could optionally be dropped... I won't say "This changes everything!" because it's not THAT hard to adjust when I'm the one building everything anyway at the moment, but it does make a significant difference.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

15 minutes ago, dialNforNinja said:

This especially is the kind of thing I was hoping for, with no old hands in the group to lean on for that sort of tribal wisdom. All the same 30 PD/ED? Do most people just ignore the Characteristic maxima stuff, then? Because that would mean spending 100cp on JUST PD/ED at the default starting value of 2 and double cost after 8, and that's before making them Resistant... Though looking at Ironclad in the back of CC he does have 25 each for 23cp, so I guess the designers did in fact ignore it despite presenting it as the standard that could optionally be dropped... I won't say "This changes everything!" because it's not THAT hard to adjust when I'm the one building everything anyway at the moment, but it does make a significant difference.

Characteristic Maxima is an optional rule intended primarily for "non-super" genres like Fantasy or Spies.  It's typically not used for superhero games. 

[Doc Democracy]

One thing I would recommend to all rookie Champions GMs, do not reuse the vast majority of your villains.  There is nothing that will make players leap from the heroic path fster than if they believe that their victories will be undermined by a revolving door at the local supervillain prison.  There is something to be said for a recurring villain, the head of a particular group that crops up again and again over a campaign can be satisfying when she is defeated at the end of it.

 

The one exception to this would be any villain chosen as a Hunted by a player.  That villain is given special privileges - you should tell players that at the start.  You can assure them that when a villain is caught they will, except in the most unusual circumstances, remain jailed EXCEPT for those villains they choose to be Hunters.  Those villains always find a way to plague the PC.

 

The comic trope of returning villains is simply due to 50 years of writing comics - there is a need for villains against whom to pit the heroes and, when there are iconic villains already created, writers will want to use them.  None of this is likely to be true of your campaigns - they will be time-limited, the villains are not likely to be iconic to anyone but you and there are thousands out there to use.

 

As far as peli-kinetic goes, I have been toying with the idea of modelling this kind of thing with a transform that switches an object from an OAF to an IIF.  That is indeed what you are doing, taking an obvious, accessible thing and making it inobvious and inaccessible.  I think this is a minor transform, it is not actually changing the nature of the thing, just how it interacts with the game world...it would be for you to decide how people would access those items if they had captured Peli-kinetic.

 

Doc

[dialNforNinja]

Looking at it again, it does say "some campaigns have a ground rule..." Huh, I guess the repeated "this rule applies unless the GM says it doesn't" in two out of every three items got stuck in my head

How about the Active Points cap, or Rule of X for total combat values? RoX was, like, the one clearly good thing about Fuzion, in terms of quantifying "this feels a little too strong or too weak," though I prefer the interpretation of making it a waterline rather than a hard ceiling.

As for revolving door prisons... well, both of the characters I made prior to this whole episode had Code Versus Killing at Strong rather than Total, precisely because of Batman's tens of thousands of proxy murders from continuing to let Joker run around loose. If the heroes can beat a supposed nemesis three or four times, it's clearly time to change something up about that villain anyway, and if each party member has had three or four focus episodes to face their nemesis the campaign has lasted long enough it SHOULD make some major changes in the landscape, literal and metaphorical.

[Doc Democracy]

6 minutes ago, dialNforNinja said:

both of the characters I made prior to this whole episode had Code Versus Killing at Strong rather than Total, precisely because of Batman's tens of thousands of proxy murders from continuing to let Joker run around loose

 

This is precisely what I want to avoid in my games.  I refuse to accept that Batman is responsible for the Joker and what he does when he escapes from prison.  He only escapes because the author wanted him to, he only has thousands of murder because we insist on taking a continuity of 50 years as canon.  If we could escape from the prison of continuity, we could appreciate each story for its own merits, we know the Joker, we can assume lots because the author chose to use that villain, we do not need to castigate the hero for acting heroically.

 

I think the thing that makes superhero games superheroic is the iconic nature of the protagonists and anything that work against that iconic nature diminishes the genre and makes the superheroes merely heroes and often not even that.

 

Doc

[dialNforNinja]

I'd like to agree, but I've gotten cynical in my old age... and used to games with their roots in the nineties and noughties that ALWAYS hammer on the "dark reality" and "awful truths" and so on, like EABA (though not mechanically, I'd love a bright future game using EABA but the author is all-in on grim and gritty) and anything by White Wolf except The Street Fighter Storytelling Game, where using the powers and abilities that make PCs special pretty much universally charges up some kind of sanity meter that sends the character on a berserk rampage when it fills. In Street Fighter, of course, that just means you can use your super moves

 

If you know the GM isn't going to pull that kind of bullpucky, then certainly it's handy to not have to find another 5cp of Disads and take CVK (total,) and facing the moral choice of "do I take this guy in alive" or "do I risk myself to save this murdering asshole from his own trap" and doing the noblebright thing is a fun and rewarding storyline even - we play these games because we want to imagine being better than real life will allow, after all - as long as doing the noblebright thing doesn't get you slapped with horrible unintended consequences that make any gains you made and the pain and effort spent to reach them meaningless. Raising a flag on the moral high ground is great as long as it doesn't just mean you're evil's easiest target for artillery practice.

[dialNforNinja]

Okay, so, this isn't one of the player characters, or even a villain take to recycle the old idea for the current purpose like his original team mate Pelican, just something I got distracted into doing basically for the practice of it to get more used to Hero. Basically, it's just here to show off my jokes and ask if I'm generally duin at rite.

(And yes, the person who gave him the nickname was in fact Mr. I Use Peli-Kinesis himself, in the original conception, along with Sandcastle's tagline of "Don't call her a beach!" and giving the horseshoe crab themed Wolverine ripoff the name "Blueblood" because it was literally true and gave a deceptive impression of his attitude and style based on the usual use of the word)

Edit: See revised version on the next page

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, dialNforNinja said:

Raising a flag on the moral high ground is great as long as it doesn't just mean you're evil's easiest target for artillery practice.

 

As long as it is only artillery then I am kind of cool with that - the villains go for me because I am noble, fine.  The GM constantly twists my nobility to make the game a misery of conflicted choices, not so much.  I am fine with conflicted choices as long as there are compensating factors elsewhere such as when I choose to throw myself in front of the death ray heading towards the innocent children in the playground then I auto-succeed and get praised for it in the press.  I am content to potentially sacrifice my character for such scenes.  As it goes I got my character killed in just such a fashion in at least two games as it gave me an excuse to walk away from the game without a bad taste in my mouth. 🙂

 

[Doc Democracy]

15 minutes ago, dialNforNinja said:

5 Extra limbs: relatively standard arms and legs plus eight prehensile tentacles

 

If I could remember who it was I would credit them, but I am sure I remember someone propose extra limbs, invisible power effects, with some STR, 0 END, only to carry stuff with invisible extra limbs as a way of doing the bag of holding idea.  When picked up by the invisible limb it effectively vanished - being carried invisibly and the amount effectively limited by the amount of STR available to carry it.

[ScottishFox]

On 6/29/2019 at 8:48 AM, ghost-angel said:

 

Probably. Or "Base Attack Roll is 11, you get 3 free bonus points, and buy more at 5pts per +1"

 

One of the reasons I like the 11+OCV-Roll presentation is it requires no information that isn't on your character sheet, and you do the math once, not every attack.

 

I find my players struggle a bit with modifiers from maneuvers.  Multiple attack, haymakers, grab, move through, etc.

 

Mostly I just ask for their maneuver modified OCV, tell them the difference between that and the opponents DCV and announce the number they're trying to roll under.  Saves time and confusion.

[ghost-angel]

1 hour ago, ScottishFox said:

I find my players struggle a bit with modifiers from maneuvers.  Multiple attack, haymakers, grab, move through, etc.

 

Have you had them try just using the modifiers to adjust the Result of the roll instead of trying to recalculate their Attack Rolls? Might work better.

[ScottishFox]

43 minutes ago, ghost-angel said:

 

Have you had them try just using the modifiers to adjust the Result of the roll instead of trying to recalculate their Attack Rolls? Might work better.

 

I just ask them for their modified OCV / DCV.

 

Not sure why they're so math challenged, but to keep the speed of the game at a playable level I will crunch the numbers for them.

[ghost-angel]

I think that's a mistake. They never learn or get truly involved. It's like D&D players who just announce what the D20 roll is, and then look at the GM to add in their Attack Bonus - why?

 

If you have a static Attack Roll and then add modifiers after you get the roll result you minimize the math.

 

Honestly - I think all experience hero players are stuck because of how Attack Rolls were originally presented and discussed.

 

A -2 OCV should never change your Attack Roll, it should change the Result. If I have an OCV of 5, and I make an attack that has a -2 OCV to it, I should not change my OCV to 3. I should change my result. I'm ALWAYS rolling a 16- on my Attack Roll. I don't redo the math every roll, that just slows things down.

 

If I roll a 10 with my 5OCV I make the roll by 6, but I have a -2, so I really make the roll by 4. Bake the math into the Roll side of things, not the pre-roll side.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

If I could remember who it was I would credit them, but I am sure I remember someone propose extra limbs, invisible power effects, with some STR, 0 END, only to carry stuff with invisible extra limbs as a way of doing the bag of holding idea.  When picked up by the invisible limb it effectively vanished - being carried invisibly and the amount effectively limited by the amount of STR available to carry it.

That sounds like a Lucius build.

[Ninja-Bear]

15 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

 

Alas, I have only Champions Complete and Champions Powers, and the perennial end of the month budget squeeze means I'm not even looking at the ebook website for a while either.

Good pun though, and something to keep in mind for later. I really want the Martial Arts book first off, though.

(And yes, there's downloads out there, but I want to be legal, and preferably have a physical copy at the table, for things I'm actually going to do more than skim through to decide whether to buy let alone actually play. Buying game stuff is how we get more game stuff, after all, while not buying game stuff is how to make game designers have to go get INT-draining "real" jobs...)

 

Your off to a good start. I wouldn’t worry about the APG though. I use Champions Powers as a resource. When it comes to deciding my own powers, I’m kinda limited so looking at a book like Powers is interesting to see how a Power is described then stated out however remember though in Hero you can usually do the same thing several different ways. Also when it comes to modifiers the best way to explain there use (on a Power) is to look at the base and to see what comes with it at base cost An advantage improves the power and a limitation reduces it effectiveness. (I do think some of custom limitations are used to squeeze points out because the condition never really comes into play-or rather not enforced in play.) Also during after a game, don’t be afraid to revise a Power because it didn’t work the way you envisioned it. It happens. Good luck!

[massey]

9 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

This especially is the kind of thing I was hoping for, with no old hands in the group to lean on for that sort of tribal wisdom. All the same 30 PD/ED? Do most people just ignore the Characteristic maxima stuff, then? Because that would mean spending 100cp on JUST PD/ED at the default starting value of 2 and double cost after 8, and that's before making them Resistant... Though looking at Ironclad in the back of CC he does have 25 each for 23cp, so I guess the designers did in fact ignore it despite presenting it as the standard that could optionally be dropped... I won't say "This changes everything!" because it's not THAT hard to adjust when I'm the one building everything anyway at the moment, but it does make a significant difference.

 

Yeah, normal characteristic maxima is usually for heroic level games.  Indiana Jones instead of the X-Men.

 

Defenses should generally be scaled to the attacks you'll have in the game.  Somebody who has 1.5 times the average dice in Defense is going to be fragile.  If you've got a 10D6 campaign, then a guy with 15 PD and ED (including combat luck, armor, force fields, etc), is going to take a lot of damage really fast.  In my experience, somebody with that level of defense should probably have something else as well to make them more survivable.  It's okay to have 15 PD and ED if you are a shrinker (whose DCV will normally be extremely high), or if you are mostly invisible (so people generally don't shoot at you), or are mostly desolid (so their attacks pass through you).  But otherwise you're gonna be face down in the dirt most of the time.  If you want a character who is fragile that's fine, but fragile they will be.

 

Somebody with 3 times the average dice in Defense is going to be tough.  In a 10D6 campaign, the guy with 30 PD and ED will take forever to go down.  Blast him and blast him and he'll just shrug it off.  I've found that between 2x and 2.5x the average dice gives you a good range of defense.

 

When you're building a character, you also want to make sure that they won't be Con-Stunned by the average attack roll.  If it's a 10D6 game, every character needs to be able to take at least 35 Stun without it passing their Defense plus Con.  So if you've got 20 Def, you need a 15 Con at a minimum.  18 to 20 is better, because sometimes people roll above average.  Losing an action because you got Stunned is a great way to remember how awesome your iPhone is and start checking Facebook during the game.  You don't want it to happen too often.

[dialNforNinja]

Hm, so... pretty much, no, I'm duin at rong, and need to split points more like 2/3 to stats and 1/3 powers/skills rather than half and half. That's going to be painful, given how much of the cool stuff is in powers...