SCUBA Hero

Some of the cost reduction thinking stemmed from trying to balance the STR, CON and DEX costs. DEX was the sleeper as, pre-6e, you could not just buy OCV and DCV, but anyone who ever tried to build an expert combatant with modest DEX and skill levels figured it out pretty quickly.
 
At some point, I believe Steve Long just said "if we get Primary and Figured to balance out right, why bother keeping the link?"  Good question.  If "CON no figured + Figured" = "CON with Figured", why have two ways the build the exact same thing?
 
I think we ended up with 1 point STR working better, and "5 points for 1 DC" makes higher-cost STR unpalatable at best. 
 
CON is a character tax. You need enough to avoid being stunned by average hits.
 
DEX - my initial thought was that 2 points was overpriced, but I have come to believe DEX is priced right, while PRE and INT are underpriced.
 
BOD is another character tax - buy enough to not need a new character every few sessions.
 
I think DEX, INT and PRE should have been assessed en bloc, likely dragging EGO in as well and reviewing skill levels. My view?
 
Price DEX, INT and PRE at 2 points.  For 5 points, you can buy +1 with all skill and characteristic rolls based on one stat (not perception).  For 5 points, you can  buy +1 with all perception rolls, +5 Lighting Reflexes or +1d6 PRE attacks.  These are each based on a -1 limitation to +5 of the characteristic.  Scale the costs down if they are more limited, right down to "+1 with 1 skill" = the cost of improving the skill.
+1 with only one roll based on that stat at a time should be reduced to 3 points.  +1 with only one roll (including +1 to a single skill) drops to 1 point.  You can have +1 to all rolls in a tight group for 4 points, and +1 to any one roll at a time in a tight group for 2 points.
 
Wait, where did PRE DEF go?  Well, that becomes the exclusive domain of EGO, which stays 1 point.  PRE DEF gets priced at half a point.  The rest of EGO (EGO rolls and resistance to mental powers) is the other half.
 
Drifting further, STR is also still a pain when we look at Hand Attack and Martial Arts DCs.  An MA DC is +5 STR, only for combat effects for a group of HTH attacks (whether MA or non-MA), 0 END.  5 x 1.5 = 7.5, so that’s about a -3/4 limitation to get down to 4 points.  Just losing Lifting would normally be -1/4 (so 4 points).  Only MA or non-MA seems reasonably priced at either a further -1/4, or -1/2.  If we keep -1/2, an MA DC is a bit more pricy, but shorthanding it to 4 points seems OK.  But I think most Martial Artists rarely use STR for non-MA purposes, so -1/4 feels more appropriate and an MA DC becomes -1/2 = 5 points.
 
 
Now, what about “direct damage only”, which is a Hand Attack?  That has to be less pricy, right?  Maybe another -1/2, which would make the limitation -1 and Hand Attack costs 2.5 points per +1d6.
 
 
However, that still leaves things like Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster.  Maybe we need a concept of "DC adders".  Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster suggest that "only to increase damage" is a -1/2 limitation on a skill level.  I think it is higher - OCV and DCV are worth at least half of the value of a skill level.  So, if we started with the premise that +1 DC for any one attack at a time is 10 points (2 skill levels with All Combat, damage only (-1)), we could move to HTH only (either a -1/2 limitation, so 20/2.5 = 8 or 2 8 point skill levels only to add damage = 8).
 
Working down from there, maybe "only for martial maneuvers" or "only for non-martial maneuvers" are -1/2 limitations (tacked on to HTH only).  That drops me down to 20/3 = 6.67 per +1 DC with all martial arts maneuvers, or all non-martial maneuvers.  I'm also at 8 for all ranged maneuvers, or 6 2/3 if they can only be with martial or non-martial maneuvers. 
 
These cost no END.  Since the base at +1 DC costs 10 points, they should cost 1 END, so STR bundles these in at half END (+2 DC at 20/3.25, still over 6 points).  The math is pushing to the conclusion that STR is also underpriced, isn't it?  It does not feel like a full 2 points, though - STR with no damage a -2 limitation, and STR that only enhances damage at -1/2?  Maybe 2 points is not out of the realm of possibility.  Break our mindset of Active Points and let the Brick spend 100 points on +50 STR and perhaps we'd be OK.

Of course you could always use the 2e/3e guidelines. They work quite nicely, as long as you neutralize the extra dice you have to roll in 5e/6e.

The thing is we're talking about  company approved products to be marketed as the official campaign.
 
It just makes sense that there would be an overall editor that makes final company approvals.
 
We can get general guidelines for submissions but before they get the official stamp of approval and are sent to PDF/printer, they need to be vetted so they are consistent with those guidelines. There has to be a line and quality control editorial system in place.
 
Will this have problems? I can see authors not wanting too many changes to their creations and there is a danger of too much of the same old thing min each product. But this is the only way to consistency. Otherwise we will end up repeating the mistakes that led to Dr. D and Takofanes.

In our exciting 13th episode -->
 
The team discussed whether they should regroup and how they should deal with the Mars base - eventually deciding they needed to deal with them now, to reduce the possible deaths in the mission the bad guys were about to intercept.
 
Solar and Capt. Force waited until the D-Soldiers left to attack; then, Solar desolidified and inviso'd them both, and then snuck into the base.
 
When they were ready, Capt. Force attacked the console with his band, turning it into Styrofoam.  Then Solar dropped a massive STUN only blast into the mentalist alien, knocking him out.
 
Capt. Force then stepped up and challenged Outrider; throwing a big punch.  Outriders armor reacted by putting a helmet on him (making him look like a massive Juggernaut {slitch}!), and he was able to withstand Capt. Force's first shot.
 
As the fight started, a speedster zoomed into the room and started running around the parameter, creating an area of effect entangle (whirlwind).
 
Solar, trapped in the entangle, used her bands to turn the air in the path of the speedster into Aerogel, slowing him to a stop...  She then pulled all the oxygen out of him, knocking him unconscious (NND attack).
 
Also entering the room, was a desolidified mentalist (one of my favorite bad guys types).  But, Solar created a desolidified affecting STUN only blast from her VPP, and knocked him out too.
 
Meanwhile, Outrider had thrown a couple punches at Capt. Force, but missed; while Capt. Force had landed a couple more, continuing to whittle him down...
 
Solar used telepathy to warn the Men in Black team on earth, so they could defend themselves against the D-Soldiers.
 
Finally, Solar turned visible just in front of Outrider as she flew at him, saying "Heeeeeere's Johnny!" and landed a super heavy punch, which didn't knock him out by itself, but when Outrider flew into the wall, the knockback rendered him unconscious.
 
And with that, the crew was finally defeated!
 
In our upcoming final episode, the team will take the final battle to the Empress' massive space-shipyard, the Star Forge - where they will finally face, THE PRAETOR!!!
 

For those who may not be aware, Hero Designer does come with the documentation as HDDocs.pdf in the install directory. 64 pages of information on not just using the basics of the program but how to do some basic alteration and making export templates.
 
I'm not sure if this is updated, but there is also a copy of the Docs in the files section on here.
 
 
 
Also a while back I made a quick and dirty cheatsheet (need to update it).
 
The upper left has page #s for the Manual on the different file types.
 

Understood. 😁 The writeup in Champions makes me want to :headdesk: too...

Okay, I've been following both this thread and the To-Hit thread, rolled it around in my head for a while, and I'm throwing this out there:  Several folks think (and I agree) that a single book that has a playable superhero game, rather than a toolkit to make a game, would sell and bring new players.
 
Existing examples of single book Hero games:
Lucha Libre Hero Narosia PS238 Traveller Hero Western Hero Widening Gyre I propose we test letting other people put their money where we think they would...
 
As a *very rough* first draft:
 
Product: Four-Color Champions (working title).
 
Purpose: Bring new players into Champions. Hopefully get them interested in broader Hero System products.
 
Method: A single book, BBB sized or smaller, that contains rules needed for Champions ("Powered by Hero System!"), plus tips on how to play, power levels, a sample hero team and villains, including an organization (Viper?) and master villain (Dr. Destroyer? Mechanon? New?), a city setting developed enough to start a campaign (either Millenium City or a new [to Hero] city), and a ready to run scenario that launches the players and GM into that city. Brief info on the world. Concentrate on four-color, MCU-style power levels and play style in a present-day world setting, don't try to cover everything.  The MCU movies are very popular, try to pick up on that wave of interest.
 
Funding: Kickstarter. Start with a nice color cover and minimal B&W interior artwork; stretch goals would add more artwork and then upgrade it to color. Mention (and have) plans for future supplements: more linked adventures, a city development book; also to use Kickstarter.  Maybe have a second adventure, linked to the first, at a high enough stretch goal to fund it.
 
Staff:  Writer. Editor. Proof-reader. Artist(s). Project coordinator.  There are several pro-level, accomplished Hero authors.  Christopher Taylor is concentrating on his fantasy setting and I respect that.  Derek Hiemforth.  Shadowcat.  I am neither a writer nor an editor, but I can proof-read and coordinate.
 
This project requires Hero Games buy-in and approval. Possibly re-use and modify text from Champions Complete and other previous Champions products.
 
What does Herodom Assembled think?

From Episode 2 - We started with a pre-WWII War of the Worlds story arc.  In episode 2, the heroes fight a Martian tripod.  During the fight...
 
Diamondback (the team's Brick) - For TRUTH, JUSTICE and punching you really hard!

From Episode 2 - We started with a pre-WWII War of the Worlds story arc.  In episode 2, the heroes fight a Martian tripod.  During the fight...
 
Diamondback (the team's Brick) - For TRUTH, JUSTICE and punching you really hard!

Power levels / attacks / defenses.
Discussion of combat, including some (light) analysis of attack dice vs. defenses (i.e., 7 defense will stop 2d6 half the time).
Discussion on how to play, GM tips, player tips.
 
All the stuff that isn't actually setting, example characters, and the adventure / campaign.

From Episode 2 - We started with a pre-WWII War of the Worlds story arc.  In episode 2, the heroes fight a Martian tripod.  During the fight...
 
Diamondback (the team's Brick) - For TRUTH, JUSTICE and punching you really hard!

The one that makes me want to :headdesk: every time I read it is this part of Ironclad's sword writeup - 
 
"HKA 2d6 (4d6 w/STR)"
 
No, no, no, NO!!
 
HKA 2d6 (6d6 w/STR).
 
There's no cap on 2 * base DCs damage.
 
6e2 p99 mentions it in Toolkitting: Adding Damage, even though it's not the base rule.  But there's no mention of it in Adding Damage in CC.
 
(Whew!  Thanks for letting me vent; I feel better now.  I like CC, it's a great book. It's just that stuff like that triggers one of my Psych Lims... must remember to buy that on off with XP [if the GM will let me].)
 

Exactly!  Either the PCs are the city's first hero team, or the previous team nobly sacrificed themselves stopping some horrible threat, or were disgraced and disbanded and left, or had some internal disagreement and disbanded or left.
 
Ready to use heroes will be a good draw (I think) as well as giving concrete power level examples.

Yeah, I was sorry to see that one go.  But it's really just more dice of damage added to the base attack with the Limitation "Only Against Defenses", possibly with Standard Effect.

We are now on Episode 44 of the current Golden Age campaign.  I went back to Ep 1 and looked at the quotes:
 
Tarraingteacht [OOC]: Why is my character a Missouri Prisoner of War?

[confused looks from the rest of the table]

Double-Time [leaning over and looking at her character sheet]: "MoPow" is an abbreviation for More Powerful…

PCs must pay for their bases, because freebasing is illegal

Could make elves magical vampires; they subsist on mystical energy and it makes them stoned and, well, elfy -- that faerie, otherworldly behavior.  Without it they start to become vicious, cruel, heartless, and even predatory.

I'd like to see WHC, but Christopher covers most of the above in WH.
 
Cinematic Ammo (no Charges) - although I can't locate exactly where that is right now in a quick search, it's mentioned as a toggle for a Romantic campaign. Talents - I'm always up for more Talents! 😁 Rastling and Knifefighting - either use existing MA styles from other products, or reprint them (perhaps slightly modified) Railroad Worker (including explosives expert variant) - Cowboy (ordinary cowpoke) with different Skills. Rancher - okay, I'd like to see that one.  Although using Cowboy (rannie) with more Skills would probably work fine. Riverboat Sailor - Cowboy (ordinary cowpoke) with different Skills. Traveling Entertainer and Sallon Girl/Soiled Dove - Non-combat NPCs; all you need are a few Stats, a few Skills, and a name. Have I mentioned that I'm really impressed with the job Christopher did with WH?

*Have to* have?  No.  Why are they often used?  Familiar tropes.  Orcs - primitive, brutish, violent.  Dwarves - underground, mining, obsessed with material things.  Just like human tropes - Vikings, Romans, Horse Nomads.  You have a good idea of where they fit in to the world with little explanation needed.

New idea:  The scenario and campaign hook should have to do with either why the previous super-team is no longer around (fallout from whatever incident caused that), or a new threat (or possibly a threat that's been around for a while, but is only now being discovered).  Gets the players into the setting and campaign, hopefully keeps them interested.
 
"Old Hero Team met their untimely demise at the hands of ###insert threat###.  It's up to us to pick up their mantle."
 
"The ###insert threat### is a menace to Campaign City.  It's up to us to stop it."

New idea:  The scenario and campaign hook should have to do with either why the previous super-team is no longer around (fallout from whatever incident caused that), or a new threat (or possibly a threat that's been around for a while, but is only now being discovered).  Gets the players into the setting and campaign, hopefully keeps them interested.
 
"Old Hero Team met their untimely demise at the hands of ###insert threat###.  It's up to us to pick up their mantle."
 
"The ###insert threat### is a menace to Campaign City.  It's up to us to stop it."

I'd like to see WHC, but Christopher covers most of the above in WH.
 
Cinematic Ammo (no Charges) - although I can't locate exactly where that is right now in a quick search, it's mentioned as a toggle for a Romantic campaign. Talents - I'm always up for more Talents! 😁 Rastling and Knifefighting - either use existing MA styles from other products, or reprint them (perhaps slightly modified) Railroad Worker (including explosives expert variant) - Cowboy (ordinary cowpoke) with different Skills. Rancher - okay, I'd like to see that one.  Although using Cowboy (rannie) with more Skills would probably work fine. Riverboat Sailor - Cowboy (ordinary cowpoke) with different Skills. Traveling Entertainer and Sallon Girl/Soiled Dove - Non-combat NPCs; all you need are a few Stats, a few Skills, and a name. Have I mentioned that I'm really impressed with the job Christopher did with WH?

New idea:  The scenario and campaign hook should have to do with either why the previous super-team is no longer around (fallout from whatever incident caused that), or a new threat (or possibly a threat that's been around for a while, but is only now being discovered).  Gets the players into the setting and campaign, hopefully keeps them interested.
 
"Old Hero Team met their untimely demise at the hands of ###insert threat###.  It's up to us to pick up their mantle."
 
"The ###insert threat### is a menace to Campaign City.  It's up to us to stop it."

Exactly!  Either the PCs are the city's first hero team, or the previous team nobly sacrificed themselves stopping some horrible threat, or were disgraced and disbanded and left, or had some internal disagreement and disbanded or left.
 
Ready to use heroes will be a good draw (I think) as well as giving concrete power level examples.

I on the other hand believe that one of the key reasons Hero is dying on the vine is NOT having pre-built PC's designed to compliment a pre-built adventure.
The end design is for everyone to understand the game enough to play it.
 
Heroes actual play rules are simple (to hit, to succeed, to damage, to change, etc.)
 
Heroes point build system is simple (it's just basic math)
 
Heroes design philosophy is so different and arcane to the average person it is extremely difficult to grok by players of other TTRPGs and virtually impossible to grok by Video RPG gamers.  Even here we constantly see players, even some veterans, asking how to build something and they start off by naming a listed "power" that sounds close as the base.  Instead of explaining in plain language (no Hero build speak) what they want to achieve. 
 
Yes, in the end every player will want to make completely custom PC's.
But before they can do that they need to have some idea of just what a STR of X means in the context of the setting they are playing.  Of just what 6d6 damage means in the context of the setting they are playing.
 
And that context changes GM to GM.  If we set the standards as a beginning game for 400 point Heroes and I built a campaign/setting and you built a campaign/setting for the same.  I might have high powered version where 8d6 is average for damage, while you might go a path where 6d6 is average.  Or 10d6.  The point is that "acceptable" and "average" in the Hero System are ever sliding goalposts. 
 
You can't actually learn a game if the parameters keep changing. 
 
Hero needs a fixed reference basic setting.
It should have a intro mini-campaign using pre-generated PC's so that the new player and GM can gain an initial understanding of the game while standing on firm ground, before they get kicked into the quicksand.
 
Just from the beginning the rule book requires the new player to make decisions they have no understanding of.
 
Normals
Standard Skilled Competent Herioc
Standard Powerful Very Powerful Superheroic
Low-Powered Standard High-Powered Very High-Powered Cosmically Powerful Yes, they all have point values, but what do those values actually mean?  In the gut?  In actual play?
 
If the campaign makes a decision and picks one.  And then builds everything to that decision including pre-generated Heroes, the new players and GM will have a defined starting point to learn the system.   And once they complete to intro campaign they now have a reference point for later use when they go their own way.  
 
Don't get me wrong, the books do a great job in trying to explain things, but like most it doesn't sink in until you actually do it.  
 
I teach technicians and engineers about on-aircraft systems all the time, both upgrades to existing systems and newly deployed systems.  We build in "classroom" time where we go over things in detail.  But for the vast majority of people the lights really don't come on completely until we go to an aircraft and fire up the system and they see things real time.  Suddenly it becomes easy. 
 
The Hero System (any edition) is an open ended one that sits on a fluid foundation.  Unfortunately you can't play open ended on fluid. 
Decisions have to add limits and set a solid foundation.