Motorcyle as Power

[Colossus]

As a GM I want to see if others think this is fair, even if it bends the rule.  

 

A character in a standard 400 Champions 6 Edition game who is Martial Artist wants a motorcyle that has a 50 m x4 NCM speed. They want to to be able to react at their DEX, OCV, DCV,and SPD which would cost upwards of 50 CP.   This is another offer for 28 CP:

 

Motorcycle:  Running 50m, x4 Noncombat (69 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only On Appropriate Terrain (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4)

 

Obviosuly the full vechile rules should be used if you are buulding the Bat mobile or a Fighter jet, but is there any reason not to allow this.  It seems fair to say the motorcyle is designed to work with the higher DEX and other Stats the character already paid for.

 

Thoughts

[Greywind]

Buy the vehicle so that it can be used with the higher stats.

[BoloOfEarth]

A PC hero in my current Champions campaign has something similar, though his is a hoverboard bought as Flight along surfaces with OAF.  Seems reasonable to me.  One issue I see is that, if your PC's motorcycle can be taken and used by anyone, the Motorcycle-as-Power (MaP) writeup as shown wouldn't work.  But if your player wants it to only work for him, then it's fine.

 

Another issue is that, as written, he can carry the motorcycle around with him everywhere - into an office building, up the elevator, into the bathroom stall with him, etc.  As such, maybe it should be OAF Bulky (though this might lower his DCV, I'll have to check the rules when I can).

 

Another issue you may want to consider, as GM, is how the MaP takes damage.  The Focus rules would give it 14 rPD / 14 rED, but 1 point of damage past that takes it out.  You may want to adjust that (say, it has 8 rPD / 8 rED, and 10 BODY, and may lose some speed if damaged).  

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Have it cost an appropriate amount of points per its usefulness in your game.  If it's basically a plot device to let him travel between scenes faster, ask yourself if that's more valuable to him as a player or you as a gm?  Sometimes the journey IS the adventure (see the Middle Earth Travelogue; LotR) but usually in supers games you want that part finished with the least fuss necessary.

 

[Duke Bushido]

7 hours ago, Colossus said:

As a GM I want to see if others think this is fair, even if it bends the rule.  

 

A character in a standard 400 Champions 6 Edition game who is Martial Artist wants a motorcyle that has a 50 m x4 NCM speed. They want to to be able to react at their DEX, OCV, DCV,and SPD which would cost upwards of 50 CP.   This is another offer for 28 CP:

 

Motorcycle:  Running 50m, x4 Noncombat (69 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only On Appropriate Terrain (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4)

 

Obviosuly the full vechile rules should be used if you are buulding the Bat mobile or a Fighter jet, but is there any reason not to allow this.  It seems fair to say the motorcyle is designed to work with the higher DEX and other Stats the character already paid for.

 

Thoughts

 

 

Id like to say "I would allow it," but I will go you one further and say that I have, and continue to do so, allowed it.

 

Ultimately, its a vehicle you always have with you.  Sounds pretty superheroey to me.

 

Yes.  There are vehicle rules.  There are also Hit Location rules and Damage Negation rules. 

 

 Nowhere in any of them is there a proclamation that they are mandatory.  Do what is the most fun for you and your group.

 

 

[archer]

I don't have a problem with how you wrote it up.

 

I'd give it a +0 Limitation of "hey, it's a motorcycle". That's effectively the social complication of a motorcycle not being acceptable everywhere plus the physical limitation of it's size.

 

I wouldn't give the Limitation any value because it's effectively offsetting the advantage of not having to use the official vehicle rules.  

[Greywind]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Id like to say "I would allow it," but I will go you one further and say that I have, and continue to do so, allowed it.

 

Ultimately, its a vehicle you always have with you.  Sounds pretty superheroey to me.

 

Yes.  There are vehicle rules.  There are also Hit Location rules and Damage Negation rules. 

 

 Nowhere in any of them is there a proclamation that they are mandatory.  Do what is the most fun for you and your group.

 

 

 

Heretic

[Duke Bushido]

Also:

 

As a life-long motorcycle rider, please let me know when a six-hour fuel range becomes a reality on anything without a custom tank or very little power. 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Also:

 

As a life-long motorcycle rider, please let me know when a six-hour fuel range becomes a reality on anything without a custom tank or very little power. 

 

 

50 meters (not using base running - that still costs END) x 4 noncombat x 5 SPD x 5 turns/minute = 5 km/minute = 300 km/hour.  Not out of the realm of possibility for a SuperCycle.  1,800 km range on one tank seems...optimistic.  or SuperCycle.  Odd that he can't find a gas station for 18 hours after a full ride, though.

[archer]

45 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

  Odd that he can't find a gas station for 18 hours after a full ride, though.

 

That could easily happen if you run out of gas inside an Indian reservation in Wyoming.

 

You're spending that next 18 hours pushing your bike to the nearest gas station.

 

(Seriously, huge Indian reservations with state highways through them and no gas stations at all inside the reservations.)

[Duke Bushido]

I'm going with Hugh's "super cycle" explanation.  

 

Maybe it's not a gas tank at all.  Maybe it's for deuterium.....

 

 

 

 

[Greywind]

"Cool wheel lights, dude!"

 

"Those are ARC reactors."

[Terminax]

While I'd allow it (maybe with an adjustment or two like the other's have suggested) at my table, I'd prefer my player to use the vehicle rules because hey, the vehicle rules aren't all that hard to manage if you're going to use them and I do. But sometimes, simple is better - all you got to do is use good judgement on when/how the player uses it. Can't just whip it out of nowhere and so on.

[Derek Hiemforth]

On 6/1/2021 at 7:40 AM, BoloOfEarth said:

One issue I see is that, if your PC's motorcycle can be taken and used by anyone, the Motorcycle-as-Power (MaP) writeup as shown wouldn't work.

 

It would as long as it's a Universal Focus.

 

I think the build fine, but unless it's like a cycle from Tron or something, I'd probably require it to take Turn Mode (-¼).

[dougmacd]

Seems fine to me.  I'd agree with the comments that Turn Mode and Bulky make sense.  (Can the martial artist really use his/her full DCV while riding it? I can see it on a flying carpet, but less so when straddling a motorcycle.)

 

 

Doug

I assume the player is prepared for the Winter Soldier to grab the motorcycle away if it's really an accessible focus?

[Opal]

46 minutes ago, dougmacd said:

full DCV while riding it? I can see it on a flying carpet, but less so when straddling a motorcycle.

And it would also have his DCV.  Bulky, assuming that's still a thing foci can suffer from, would take care of that, too, IIRC.

[Ninja-Bear]

I’ve seen Cassandra build vehicles like this. I think it’s fine for what you what you propose to do with it.

 

@Derek Hiemforth, it does not  have to be a Tron Cycle to be Personal Focus. He could have a special kill switch or AI that stops if he isn’t on it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

30 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

it does not  have to be a Tron Cycle to be Personal Focus. He could have a special kill switch or AI that stops if he isn’t on it.

 

I wasn't connecting it being a Tron cycle to whether it's a Universal or Personal Focus.  I was just saying that, unless it can make a right-angle turn on a dime like a Tron cycle, it should have a Turn Mode (unlike normal Running).  

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

I wasn't connecting it being a Tron cycle to whether it's a Universal or Personal Focus.  I was just saying that, unless it can make a right-angle turn on a dime like a Tron cycle, it should have a Turn Mode (unlike normal Running).  

Ok, my bad. 😁

[BoloOfEarth]

6 hours ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

It would as long as it's a Universal Focus.

 

Good point.  I was only thinking in terms of it not being Usable By Others - but you're right, a Universal OAF means anyone could take off with it and use it.

[Echo3Niner]

This reminds me of the smartphone conversation; to me, totally depends on how the player uses it.

 

If it's like reality, and the device is just something they have, used as a prop basically (quick searches for basic info, getting from point A to point B, etc.) - then to me it really doesn't matter; everyman device.

 

The second they want an AI more powerful than "Siri" or the bike to do something cool IN the game (Ghost Rider anyone?); then it's a power and should be paid for...

 

My ought two...

[Derek Hiemforth]

31 minutes ago, Echo3Niner said:

This reminds me of the smartphone conversation; to me, totally depends on how the player uses it.

 

If it's like reality, and the device is just something they have, used as a prop basically (quick searches for basic info, getting from point A to point B, etc.) - then to me it really doesn't matter; everyman device.

 

The second they want an AI more powerful than "Siri" or the bike to do something cool IN the game (Ghost Rider anyone?); then it's a power and should be paid for...

 

My ought two...

 

I didn't think the question was about whether or not the bike should be paid for with CP.  I thought it was about whether it's okay to just buy it as Running with a Focus instead of buying it as a full-blown Vehicle using the vehicle rules.  Did I misunderstand?

[Echo3Niner]

12 minutes ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

I didn't think the question was about whether or not the bike should be paid for with CP.  I thought it was about whether it's okay to just buy it as Running with a Focus instead of buying it as a full-blown Vehicle using the vehicle rules.  Did I misunderstand?

 

Perhaps I misunderstood, or at a minimum conflated the two...  I was trying to agree, and say that since it would have "game stats" in-game use, that the point cost seemed reasonable - but, if they were only using it for transport (per the quote below), it could just be an everyman device.

 

On 6/1/2021 at 1:28 PM, Nekkidcarpenter said:

Have it cost an appropriate amount of points per its usefulness in your game.  If it's basically a plot device to let him travel between scenes faster, ask yourself if that's more valuable to him as a player or you as a gm?  Sometimes the journey IS the adventure (see the Middle Earth Travelogue; LotR) but usually in supers games you want that part finished with the least fuss necessary.

 

 

Sorry, if I muddied the waters...

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Echo3Niner said:

This reminds me of the smartphone conversation; to me, totally depends on how the player uses it.

 

If it's like reality, and the device is just something they have, used as a prop basically (quick searches for basic info, getting from point A to point B, etc.) - then to me it really doesn't matter; everyman device.

 

The second they want an AI more powerful than "Siri" or the bike to do something cool IN the game (Ghost Rider anyone?); then it's a power and should be paid for...

 

My ought two...

 

 

I find Ghost Rider (at least as I understand the modern character-- let's remember I'm not really a comic book guy) to be the perfect example of this, _especially_ if you look at the example from the movie with the turn mode thing:

 

The bike in the movie has quite possibly the most ridiculous rake and trail angles I've ever seen ridden.  Yes; there are trailer queens that are as bad or worse, but they aren't really ridden.  Why?  Because they absolutely _can't_ be steered in any effective manner.   Yet in the movie, high-speed turns and ducking down alleys, etc (and up walls?!) just happened, period.

 

The bike wasn't going to work for anyone else, either.  In the case of GR, it's something he summons (usually by turning some other bike into this bike,  I think, but I'm also not sure that this is absolutely necessary.  Can anyone tell me of an instance where he couldn't summon his bike for some reason?  If so, I _might_ go with Focus of Opportunity as a requirement, but even then....

 

 

The problem with these discussions-- not this particular one or any particular person, but the "what do you think of my idea" conversations-- is that they are seldom treated as "what do you think" or "would you allow," but instead a litany of "what you did wrong" or "what you should or must also do."

 

Maybe this bike isn't going to require a turn mode.  Maybe it's not going to be something anyone else can operate.  Maybe it isn't able to carry more than the character himself can carry.  For example, if he had told us that the "focus" is the Amulet of Hermes worn 'round his neck, absolutely none of these "requirements" and "must haves" would have come up.  None of them.  The focus is a motorcycle?  No; that means that---

 

It doesn't.  It doesn't automatically mean anything.  It opens options that the player or the GM may wish to consider in terms of "this might be an interesting way to represent what you're going for" or even "this is a logical problem you could accept in exchange for a reduced price," but that's really it.

 

Certainly, remind him to consider these things, but assuming that these have to be actual issues in the game at hand is a bit out of place.

 

 

Granted, this is just the opinion of one lunatic.

 

 

 

[archer]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

I find Ghost Rider (at least as I understand the modern character-- let's remember I'm not really a comic book guy) to be the perfect example of this, _especially_ if you look at the example from the movie with the turn mode thing:

 

The bike in the movie has quite possibly the most ridiculous rake and trail angles I've ever seen ridden.  Yes; there are trailer queens that are as bad or worse, but they aren't really ridden.  Why?  Because they absolutely _can't_ be steered in any effective manner.   Yet in the movie, high-speed turns and ducking down alleys, etc (and up walls?!) just happened, period.

 

The bike wasn't going to work for anyone else, either.  In the case of GR, it's something he summons (usually by turning some other bike into this bike,  I think, but I'm also not sure that this is absolutely necessary.  Can anyone tell me of an instance where he couldn't summon his bike for some reason?  If so, I _might_ go with Focus of Opportunity as a requirement, but even then....

 

 

The problem with these discussions-- not this particular one or any particular person, but the "what do you think of my idea" conversations-- is that they are seldom treated as "what do you think" or "would you allow," but instead a litany of "what you did wrong" or "what you should or must also do."

 

Maybe this bike isn't going to require a turn mode.  Maybe it's not going to be something anyone else can operate.  Maybe it isn't able to carry more than the character himself can carry.  For example, if he had told us that the "focus" is the Amulet of Hermes worn 'round his neck, absolutely none of these "requirements" and "must haves" would have come up.  None of them.  The focus is a motorcycle?  No; that means that---

 

It doesn't.  It doesn't automatically mean anything.  It opens options that the player or the GM may wish to consider in terms of "this might be an interesting way to represent what you're going for" or even "this is a logical problem you could accept in exchange for a reduced price," but that's really it.

 

Certainly, remind him to consider these things, but assuming that these have to be actual issues in the game at hand is a bit out of place.

 

 

Granted, this is just the opinion of one lunatic.

 

 

 

 

I've seen Ghost Rider transform an existing motorcycle into his hellcycle. But I've also seen him summon the hellcycle out of thin air. So I guess it depends on whether or not he wants to carry his existing motorcycle with him from Point A to Point B while in hero ID.

 

In the Ultimates Universe (Earth-1610), Ghost Rider reverted to Johnny Blaze while on holy ground and lost all his powers, including the hellfire motorcycle.

 

I'm not sure whether the mainstream (Earth-616) Ghost Rider has that limitation or not.

 

That limitation would probably be worth the same as giving some versions of Superman a total power loss when in the presence of green kryptonite, IMO.

 

As for the original question about the power, I'd say that if the character defines it as a stock motorcycle that he ought to give it a turn radius ("My character rides a Kawasaki ZX-15") because other people he comes in contact with who have that exact bike should have their bike behave the same way (and differences in performance should come from Combat Driving).

 

If the character defines it as my suped up super-motorcycle, he's not going to be in a chase facing the same motorcycle. And he should have it perform in whatever manner he desires it to perform.

 

In short, the character can't change the game world with his choice of powers (such as declaring "the Kawasaki ZX-15 doesn't have a turn radius" because, ahem, yes it does). The player can build his character's powers but the player cannot determine how the game world's environment works.