Compensating for PC Abilities

[Blue]

Let's say you let a player have a power that is a little tough to deal with in general. A few exmples might include:

• Entangle Based on ECV
  
• Small EB Based on ECV (does BODY), around 3D6
  
• Detect Truth
  
• Fairly High Powered Telepathy

Now these turn out during game play to be powers that do quite a bit to derail adventures. The first ability winds up letting the player freeze a big threat or three so that everyone else can gang up on those left to fight; The EB slowly pecks away at someone who no one else seems to be able to hurt; The characters always know that the NPCs aren't being straight with them; The players manage to dredge up big pieces of the hidden plot from the minds of their victims.

 

As a GM, you have a responsibility to make things more difficult on your players. If they waltz through scenarios then its not all that rewarding for them. On the other hand, if villains start showing up with High EGOs, with special powers of deception, with Resistant Mental Defense, it's a cheat to the hero to some degree that his powers stop being all that functional.

 

I realize this is why they put the caution and stop signs in the book, but curing play sometimes something proves more troublesome than expected.

 

How do you handle the powers that seem to circumvent your game? Do you repeatedly slap down the "offender" by beefing up your villains to unconscienable degress? Do you let them run roughshod? Do you wind up inserting a mysterious mental defense mid-combat to spare the adventure's plotline?

 

In short, how do you deal with powers that exist in your game that are proving to be a headache?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

For telepathy, I could swear there's at least one good thread buried around here that offers various ideas. Some of those would work for the detect truth as well, like stooges planted with false information that they believe to be the absolute truth. Hire a guy to kill the heroes "so your deal at pier 29 can go down unhampered Thursday night". If he kills them, great. If not, they telepathy him and are staking out the docks Thursday while you hit the diamond exchange across town. Things like that.

 

For the others, howabout a few folks with "anti-psi" devices/powers - things like mental damage shields, or "ego reflection", allowing them to reflect the offending power onto one of the PC's teammates?

 

 

Edit: here's the old thread I was thinking of. A good bit of "debate" about martian legal systems and if the LSH count as superheroes can be easily skimmed over to find the more useful bits for your situation.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18362&highlight=telepathy

[GoldenAge]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Perhaps instilling doubt is the answer.

 

Short of contrived anti-mentalist devices and other psi-powered characters there's always the option of a savvy villain learning the truth behind their powers and totally setting them up. Perhaps he feigns the type of villainy that they expect, telling henchmen and the like exactly the wrong information? Maybe he uses hired henchmen that are huge bricks; too stupid to know and too strong to be taken down quickly.

 

While the heroes are doing what they feel is right... they're dead wrong and a worse crime is happening elsewhere.

 

One way or another, the heroes may start to second-guess their abilities. Or, at the very least, have to use their minds instead of their.... well, minds.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

For the Detect, especially a Detect Truth which can be a real PITA... try Invisibility: Detect Truth, with fringe.

 

Now the player can't "see" the Truth or Untruth in the opponent, unless they really concentrate...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Let's say you let a player have a power that is a little tough to deal with in general.

If any of my players have those powers, I'm screwed. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Personally I tend to be very leary of mentalist PCs, because I get tired of having to come up with new and original ways to keep some sense of mystery in the game without cheating the player. Just IMHO.

 

More generally, I once ran a PC in a Star Hero game whose whole schtick was built around high-PRE and ridiculously good interaction skills. But it turned out the whole campaign was supposed to revolve around the fact that we were Strangers in a Strange Land and no one would give us the time of day. So every time I used those abilities the GM was forced to either 1) reveal things that would spoil the plot, or 2) come up with an excuse to ignore the dice. The former was hugely frustrating for him; the later was hugely frustrating for me. After a handful of sessions, it became obvious it wasn't going to work, so we retired the character and I rolled up a new one. Ce la vie.

 

A less extreme possibility is to talk with the player about modifying the character's powers; most players want the game to be fun and balanced, and IME are receptive to the "Look, I'm having trouble writing good adventures for your character because of X" conversation. One you and the player are in agreement, it's easy to come up with an in-game reason for the change: second-stage mutation, another "radiation accident", weird interactions with someone else's powers, etc.

 

OTOH I once ran a modern-day Cthulu-esque game, where I expected the PCs would carry pistols and perhaps a hunting rifle now and then. But I foolishly allowed not one but TWO of the PCs to take arms dealer contacts +/or perks. (In my defense, it was totally in character for both of them.) So next thing I know, they're all walking around with assault rifles, grenade launchers, flak jackets, et al. Changed the nature of the game considerably, and at one point I considered writing those contacts/perks out of the game. But the players were obviously enjoying themselves so I just ran with it, upping the lethality level of the opposition to match. Wasn't quite the campaign I had in mind, but it sure was fun. At least in that case, it was equally unbalancing for all the PCs.

 

Not sure if that answered your question or not; I seem to be rambling today...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Oh, under the heading of instilling doubt, another obvious solution is to make the rolls yourself, so the PCs don't know whether or not they made it.

[David Johnston]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Let's say you let a player have a power that is a little tough to deal with in general. A few exmples might include:

• Entangle Based on ECV
  
• Small EB Based on ECV (does BODY), around 3D6
  
• Detect Truth
  
• Fairly High Powered Telepathy

Now these turn out during game play to be powers that do quite a bit to derail adventures. The first ability winds up letting the player freeze a big threat or three so that everyone else can gang up on those left to fight; The EB slowly pecks away at someone who no one else seems to be able to hurt; The characters always know that the NPCs aren't being straight with them; The players manage to dredge up big pieces of the hidden plot from the minds of their victims.

 

 

 

How do you handle the powers that seem to circumvent your game? Do you repeatedly slap down the "offender" by beefing up your villains to unconscienable degress? Do you let them run roughshod? Do you wind up inserting a mysterious mental defense mid-combat to spare the adventure's plotline?

 

In short, how do you deal with powers that exist in your game that are proving to be a headache?

 

Well the first thing to do is bear in mind the actual limitations of the power. For example, Detect Truth, requires a perception roll. The characters aren't "always" going to know that they are being lied to. Maybe Truthsayer blew his roll. Maybe the other guy just is a reeeealy good liar, because just like stealth and perception, it's an opposed roll.

 

The second thing to of course, is to refrain from getting married to a "plotline". Have bad guys. Have them have a plan. Have them take what precautions they can based on their abilities and knowledge of the heros likely involvement to keep the heros from interfering with the plant. Let the players take it from there. If you don't have a plotline, then it can't be derailed. If the players dispose of all of your on-hand threats in record time, let them spend the rest of the session paying a little more attention to their personal lives.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

GURPS IST had a good mention about anti-mentalist devices. The theory was that, in there, low-level versions were actually common and fairly inexpensive, as part of the integration of 'super-tech' into the world. The lower-powered versions, enough to stop someone who wasn't really trying, could easily be fitted into a watch.

 

Thus, while your average gang-banger wouldn't have one of these (the cost for the base model was around $500), anyone from a mafioso lieutenant or corporate VP on upwards would most likely have these.

 

Thus, this allows you to scale your psychic defenses on the basis of wealth and paranoia. It also allows people to use psychic powers on most low-level folks, but if you want to use it on their bossses, you have to be clever and/or extremely aggressive.

[Lucius]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Well, in the game I'm playing in now, we have a mentalist character.

 

Would be really useful, too, if it weren't for the fact we're fighting robots.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Class of Mind: Palindromedary

[Victim]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

In a mystery story, the PCs have to get clues in order to proceed. Mental Powers, just like investigation skills, are a way for the PCs to get clues so they can act. Sitting around with clueless characters isn't much fun for the players or the DM.

[Blue]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

I can come up with one-shot ways of circumventing powers. I think my concern is that EVERY villain showing up who has something important suddenly has accounted for the hero's abilities, rendering him useless.

[BcAugust]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Hmm, while my experience is with a different class of gamebreaking powers(I'm a WOD 1.0 Storyteller, there is nothing but broken powers.) One of the things I've found works well is making sure your players don't feel the need to use those powers that often. Unless they're using them on every npc, then in that case, I think there's bigger problems. Though, knowledge of the limitations on them would be helpful. I was a player in a game where one had Truth Sense and the other had *tries to remember* a hundred+ VPP for mental senses, including telepathy. But both of them didn't break the game because of how the limitations worked that meant they didn't casually use those powers.

 

Have a street level crook just blab when they're captured "You'll find out about it anyway." And let the info be just a little bit wrong, at the start. And all the other advice.

[BcAugust]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

I can come up with one-shot ways of circumventing powers. I think my concern is that EVERY villain showing up who has something important suddenly has accounted for the hero's abilities' date=' rendering him useless.[/quote']

 

Ah. can you give us actual examples of the powers? I mean, I can suggest a lot, certainly not for every villian, but also, maybe why the heros wouldn't do things that break your game all the time?

 

And most of the time, it does come down to that for me(Note, again, I'm a WOD St). Let them use the cool powers, but say "There's a cost for them." or even "I don't feel comfortable with you doing that particular action. Convince me." My players can be very reasonable, when they need to be.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Three things I would not allow a PC to have.

 

Detect truth (or lies)

 

Time Travel (both directions)

 

Resurrection

 

They basically eliminate drama to a degree. I don't see a need for them in the hands of a PC. If they need to exist at all, give them to an NPC

 

Also - detection of truth is a ludicrous concept. This implies that a simple detect has unlimited access to an infinite number of knowledge skills.

 

Even a detect of lies can be undermined. If the target is honestly unaware of the truth, then they can speak falsehoods with absolute certainty and (as far as they are concerned) not be telling lies.

 

Entangles based on anything other than raw damage are potentially unbalanced. Almost all of them are. Ditto for NNDs or avlds that do body damage.

[Blue]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

The Mental Entangle is the first one that came to mind for me when I came up with this subject; Primarily because the guy who does it meant it as a "times top" power, freezing a foe in place. We mediated that being "strong enough" to break yourself free of that time freeze was slightly less logical than being able to will your way out.

 

But let's say our heroes meet up with a team of villains in a park or a bank. Even numbers maybe (5 heroes, 5 villains). Two of the Villains have enough EGO to break the simple 4D6 entangle (One with effort, the other, pretty regularly). The other 3 are screwed, unless the villain with mental powers stops to ego attack the entangle, thus wasting his turn. During which time, the Hero simply throws up another one.

 

Now of course at that time the villains are definitely targeting that guy, unless they've got reason not to (Such as in the above scenario, a sniper who was sworn enemy of a different hero and thus targeted him first).

 

A hero able to tie up at least one villain every turn with ease becomes a problem in a hurry. Especially since it takes attention away from another big threat (the team brick).

 

I figure having enough "casual EGO" to break through is one thing (per book). Having a team egoist to knock down such attacks is another move. And I'm thinking a nasty surprise for the hero would be someone with a "reflection" ability to send the Ego Freeze back or at another hero.

 

But I figure after this happens in every fight, or after the villains suddenly start taking down that guy first in every fight (because the GM knows to, not because every Villain team is brilliant), then there's a problem.

 

I'm trying to balance fun with fairness.

[Black Omega]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

The weapons problem was one I've watched out for in my game. But the drawbacks of walking around with body armor and assault rifles balance it out. The police wanting to talk to you before anything has happened. The bad guys countering with stuff that big and nasty in return. And in a recent case where they got their hands on special LAW rockets, met people it worked on. And one vampire who walked rightr through it. They ran from that battle.

 

More generally, truth sense can also be handled by politician types who don't lie. They carefully don't lie. But they simply don't tell all the truth, and the shade the truth they do tell while avoiding direct lies though distraction and counter questions.

 

Telepathy, it's reasonable every now and then for someone to have good mental defenses, especially Big bad evil guys. Once bad guys figure out someone has telepathy, that changes what information they let lackies have. Doesn't mean the power becomes useless, but it won't be as easy to get the full plan just by reading minds. And if they are just walking around reaming the mind of everyone they meet, that is just asking for a world of trouble, and not just from bad guys.

 

The small EB/ECV/Killing can be blocked now and then by someone with the right defenses. Or someone suddenly has blood coming out of their ears frmo an attack, knows who hit them, and the bad guys decide to take that guy out first.

 

The entangle is a tough one. It's a magnifiying glass type of entangle since short of powerful ego or ego attacks you won't break out. But depending on the bad guys, a mentalist can simply help the big guy break out. Ususually bricks have plenty of stun, so they can take a zap from a ego attack in order to break free.

 

The real key is usually the special defenses rarely, not all the time. Players should get to have fun with their powers. But there's nothing wrong with a special challenge not simply crumbling under their usual attacks.

[Black Omega]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

But let's say our heroes meet up with a team of villains in a park or a bank. Even numbers maybe (5 heroes' date=' 5 villains). Two of the Villains have enough EGO to break the simple 4D6 entangle (One with effort, the other, pretty regularly). The other 3 are screwed, unless the villain with mental powers stops to ego attack the entangle, thus wasting his turn. During which time, the Hero simply throws up another one.[/quote']

The reflection is a good idea. Or even a damage shield against mental attacks. Also a flash attack can stop him in his tracks unless he has some other special sense. Pretty much anything that blocks line of sight can mess with him.

 

To be honest, it would not be shy about talking to the player if it's a serious problem though.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Let's say you let a player have a power that is a little tough to deal with in general. A few exmples might include:

• Entangle Based on ECV
  
• Small EB Based on ECV (does BODY), around 3D6
  
• Detect Truth
  
• Fairly High Powered Telepathy

 

In short, how do you deal with powers that exist in your game that are proving to be a headache?

 

Snipped and cutting to the end of the line.

 

Well, 5 points of Mental Def stops the Body-Doing EB on ECV pretty cold (as far as the Body damage, at least). Entangles on ECV are, admittedly, more problematic, but I use old rules from Champs 3 that give boosts to breakout rolls based on Psych Lims or Enraged (Moderate=+1d6, Strong=+2d6, Total=+4d6, +2d6 for Enraged, +4d6 when Berserk, though the Psych Lims can also backfire if, for some reason, the character would be more inclined to stand still).

 

Detect Truth and Telepathy are old easy-deal-withs; master villains are usually telepath-proof due to high Egos, and it's a common practice for any real master villains of mine to only give his minions the bare minimum information they need to do the job at hand. "Master Wu wants the Diamond Mirror of The Shining Dragon. Why? I got nothin'." This serves an interesting, seemingly contradictory purpose ... it doesn't let the PCs know precisely what's going on, but can often give them enough information to follow leads. And, of course, false information is a common red herring.

 

Detect Truth is usually circumvented by telling 'the bare truth', that which is technically true but isn't the whole truth. "I have business with your team leader" is true even if that business is beating the living $*@( out of him, for instance. This is one of those cases, also, where the DM should roll the Perception roll for the player. I think I once made a villain, who was running for President, who used his Mind Control on himself to 'believe the lies you say are true'.

 

There's also the special effect of Detect Truth. If it's kind of a metaphysical thing, then I'd probably require some limitation on it regarding Mental Def in the target being able to push the Perception roll down. If it's a Daredevilly 'sense the heart rate' kind of thing, then a true brazen liar would be able to bull his way through; I'd require a limitation that makes it a PER roll vs the target's Persuasion or Acting roll.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

To the mental entangle and BOECV: Does BOD - send a few villains up against the group that have similar abilities. If they whine about the unfairness of it all, that's a pretty good indicator these abilities are also inapropriate for a PC.

 

To the Detect: I agree with "Detec Lies", not "Detect Truth". This comes down to planning the game first. If I were to allow a player with a bunch of telepathy, or a Detect the Truth power, it would mean I'm not planning to run a game where the ability to accurately discern the truth will cripple my plots. Just like I wouldn't allow a character with Retrocognition into a murder mysteries game.

[David Johnston]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

 

There's also the special effect of Detect Truth. If it's kind of a metaphysical thing, then I'd probably require some limitation on it regarding Mental Def in the target being able to push the Perception roll down. If it's a Daredevilly 'sense the heart rate' kind of thing, then a true brazen liar would be able to bull his way through; I'd require a limitation that makes it a PER roll vs the target's Persuasion or Acting roll.

 

There's no need for a limitation as such. It's built into senses that you can hide from them. All you have to do is decide what constitutes a good method for hiding.

[sinanju]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

How do you handle the powers that seem to circumvent your game? Do you repeatedly slap down the "offender" by beefing up your villains to unconscienable degress? Do you let them run roughshod? Do you wind up inserting a mysterious mental defense mid-combat to spare the adventure's plotline?

 

In short, how do you deal with powers that exist in your game that are proving to be a headache?

 

I sit down with my players and explain that the power in question, while a legal build under the rules, and one that I initially permitted in my game, is ruining the game by making it too easy/simple for the players to circumvent the plots.

 

Therefore (says I), I'm either a) changing the rules about what powers are allowed in my game, or asking the player to alter or retire the character or c) both.

 

We're all adults. If a player or a character is a problem, the problem needs to be addressed directly.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

So, what happens if they accidentally target the wrong person with the mental attacks? "Your Honor, I will show that that so-called 'hero' did willfully and maliciously assault my client, and then ripped his personal memories from his mind..."

 

What if the information that they need is in the mind of a schizophrenic? Or someone high on drugs? Heck, tinfoil hats just might work as effective shields. Maybe, with all of the combat, they just hit someone a little too hard, and he has a case of amnesia.

 

Detect Truth? How about on someone that insists in speaking in metaphors or euphemisms? Or a pathological liar? Or someone who always tests bad, even when telling the truth? How about a villain who tells each henchman a different story, so that the party doesn't know who to believe.

 

What if the target is overly sensitive to mental damage, and enters a coma, or worse yet, dies?

 

There are lots of roleplaying options here.

 

JoeG

[mikesama]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

One thing that should give them a real problem... robots. Make automitons, no ego 3 out of 4 problems solved. And depending on the detect truths special effect it might stop that as well. Of corse throwing robots at them all the time will cause them to be most unhappy but occasionally used they would be quite effective.

[Rapier]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Actually, its been quite a while since we ran into a problem like this.

 

First, you need to give some serious thought to all powers when reviewing characters. This is VERY important. However, its not foolproof. Sometimes you are having an off day and just don't see it coming.

 

Secondly, you are designing the villains and all the obstacles. There is nothing wrong with designing villains that have some immunity to these killer powers.

 

Thirdly, sit em down. Explain to the player that you didn't forsee this power construct as being an issue and you let it in. But now that you have, you see that it is really wrecking the games. Ask the player to go radiation accident or redesign to remove the offending power. In theory this shouldn't be a problem because we are all adults right? Pshaw. I wish.

 

Fourthly, if nothing else works. Start introducing villains with the same powers. What's sauce for the goose.... Explain to the group that the power is just too unbalancing so you had to redesign the villains. Once the villains show up with that power and some added DEF to defend against it, the situation will work itself out. The rest of the party will apply peer pressure to force capitulation.

 

You need to be careful because if handled poorly, this can ruin a group. But I would like to believe that adults are simply going to take their toys and go home at the first sign of conflict.

[Outsider]

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

 

Entangle Based on ECV :

 

 

I think HERO missed the mark on this one.

 

They say in the Entangle rules that 'Entangle Based on ECV' can be simulated with a total of just +1/2 in advantages. But the problem is that this doesnt jibe with their other rules regarding the 2 advantages that make up the +1/2.

 

1) Mental Paralysis takes "Entangle takes no damage from attack" at the +1/4 level.

 

Normally, the +1/4 level is for attacks that that are take no damage from only certian kinds of attacks (examples given = Physical attacks, Fire) but can still be specifically targetted at a mere -3 OCV (on a 0 DCV character, so all of 3 DCV total to attack the Entangle on one's Entangled ally)

 

Well, the Mental Paralysis Entangle allows an entangle that not only is transparent to the 2 most common broad categories of attack (Physical AND Energy) but that cannot even be targetted at -3 OCV by them. Sure, they allow it to be damaged by certain specific kinds of Mental Powers and other powers based on ECV, but those are really pretty rare. Even if the rationale is that the MPE is paying +1/2 for its transparency, then getting back +1/4 because it can be hurt by certain Mental and BoECV attacks, that still leaves the issue of it not being able to be targetted specifically, even at a negative, by Physical and Energy attacks (which -would- be able to target a 'transparent' non-MPE Entangle, at a negative)

 

I'd say that the MPE's 'transparency' advantage should be at least +1/2.

 

2) The Mental Paralysis takes "Works against EGO, not STR" as a mere +1/4 advantage.

 

Consider that

A) EGO costs twice what STR does

EGO is almost never bought up past 'normal' levels except by specialist charactrs (very unlike STR, which almost everyone buys up to at least Normal Max, and very often much higher)

C) Normal 'Based on ECV' is a +1 advantage. +3/4, even if it takes a range mod. How is it that -this- application is only +1/4?

 

The only thing that might mitigate the cost (if it is the case) is that a MPE, unlike an Entangle with BoECV advantage, would still use OCV vs DCV to hit, rather than being OECV vs DECV. Still, going from +3/4 or +1 to +1/4 is a pretty big discount for just that.

 

I'd say the Effects EGO portion of the MPE advantage should be at least +1/2 and probably up to +1.

 

 

So overall, MPE should be a +1 to +1 1/2. And I'd go for the higher of the two, as that would make the MPEs about 2D6 to 3D6, which is definitely annoying (but not insurmountable) to most non-mentalists, while being something that mentalists should be able to shrug off as easily as a brick shrugs off a 6D6 to 7D6 normal Entangle.